Wishlist for Avadon 3 - interface/gameplay suggestions

[mikeprichard]

Also Earthshatter. And Blademaster's Berserk Leap, Blade Sweep, and Berserker Slash. Shadowwalker's Blade Whirlwind and Steel Tornado.

Lastly, Sorceress has Icy Lance keyed to ranged weapon.

 

Right - I meant to include Earthshatter with Earthquake, and those other physical/melee-type-damage Blademaster/Shadowwalker skills also use DEX when it would make more sense for them to key off STR - or at least not only DEX. I also forgot about the strange ranged weapon modifier for Icy Lance. So does anyone know what's up with these - i.e. were any of these stat mechanics intentional on Jeff's part, and if so, why?

[Lilith]

There is, at least, a method to the madness: every ranged or area-effect attack that does physical damage is based on Dexterity.

[mikeprichard]

There is, at least, a method to the madness: every ranged or area-effect attack that does physical damage is based on Dexterity.

 

Good point; maybe that's what Jeff was going for then. Based on their descriptions, it would seem more logical for at least some of these skills to use STR, but at least there is a "method."

 

Anyway, I get the impression Jeff doesn't have the time/inclination to read through the forums. So do any of the veterans think it would be appropriate for me to email him directly about this thread to draw his attention to things some fans might like to see in the next installment? Or is this whole exercise just academic?

[Triumph]

Go for it! There's no harm at all in sending an email with your thoughts.

 

There's no guarantee he'll read it, but he's much more likely to read email than to read this thread.

[Lilith]

If you have the time and inclination to email him, it's worth a shot. He'll probably read it, at least, even if he decides to ignore it.

[mikeprichard]

Thanks - I do (have the time) and I did (email Jeff), so I guess we'll find out whether he considered any of our suggestions when Avadon 3 comes out in a few years. Take it easy, all!

[Alberich]

Not to throw cold water on your hopes, but a long time ago I read something of his -- an interview or a blog post, I forget -- in which he explained that he generally ignores fan input except from the playtesters, since so much of it is contradictory. (It stuck in my head because it's similar to Machiavelli's advice to the prince for dealing with flatterers...have a small coterie of trusted advisors and don't listen to anyone else.) That suggests to me that your best hope for influencing the next game is that one of its playtesters will read this thread and make your suggestion when the time comes.

 

One very minor linguistic wish from me: not to refer to the summoned creatures as “pets.” To my mind, a "pet" is an animal you keep for ornamentation or love and companionship. A military working dog, a police dog, a warhorse is a fine thing, but is not a pet; neither should be a drake or hellhound I summon to launch ahead as a fire-spitting meat shield. The word “beast” would be better.

 

(btw, nowadays about half the time when I post on this forum I can't do carriage returns...this time I pasted from a word file but it still took several tries to get the blank spaces in...is there anything I can do about that?)

[mikeprichard]

Not to throw cold water on your hopes, but a long time ago I read something of his -- an interview or a blog post, I forget -- in which he explained that he generally ignores fan input except from the playtesters, since so much of it is contradictory. (It stuck in my head because it's similar to Machiavelli's advice to the prince for dealing with flatterers...have a small coterie of trusted advisors and don't listen to anyone else.) That suggests to me that your best hope for influencing the next game is that one of its playtesters will read this thread and make your suggestion when the time comes.

 

One very minor linguistic wish from me: not to refer to the summoned creatures as “pets.” To my mind, a "pet" is an animal you keep for ornamentation or love and companionship. A military working dog, a police dog, a warhorse is a fine thing, but is not a pet; neither should be a drake or hellhound I summon to launch ahead as a fire-spitting meat shield. The word “beast” would be better.

 

(btw, nowadays about half the time when I post on this forum I can't do carriage returns...this time I pasted from a word file but it still took several tries to get the blank spaces in...is there anything I can do about that?)

 

Points taken - though hopefully enough of the regular playtesters have been reading/contributing to this thread for at least some of the points to be brought to his attention next time. I also agree with your "pet" peeve.

 

As for your question on blank spaces - I had the same problem until I realized there's a "Toggle editing mode" icon in the post editing menu (top left). Click that, and you'll then be able to do more thorough text editing. Yeah, it's weird, but that's how it is.

[Alberich]

Thanks!

[Serene Tempest]

If you have the time and inclination to email him, it's worth a shot. He'll probably read it, at least, even if he decides to ignore it.

 

Might I suggest not doing this right away, but leaving the topic open for awhile (perhaps even stickying it?)? Then, once you feel most new suggestions are either fringe requests or redundant with things already here, call it finished and send the email.

[mikeprichard]

Might I suggest not doing this right away, but leaving the topic open for awhile (perhaps even stickying it?)? Then, once you feel most new suggestions are either fringe requests or redundant with things already here, call it finished and send the email.

 

Good suggestion, but I got impatient and sent the email already. I'm confident that my edited first post (from which I copied the suggestion list into the email body) isn't redundant, though. Also, the intention of the email was more to make Jeff aware of the list; hopefully he'll eventually check in as it continues to develop.

 

I'd also really appreciate stickying this thread, but I guess that's up to the mods.

[stranger]

I think this thread will continue to be bumped so it's no big deal.

 

"Pet" is very commonly used in games for "summon". It's not accurate to compare to our conversational usage of the word.

[mouton]

If you have the time and inclination to email him, it's worth a shot. He'll probably read it, at least, even if he decides to ignore it.

Redbeard is a harsh master.

[mikeprichard]

Redbeard is a harsh master.

 

Yeah, good thing I don't post under my real name - I'd probably be in the dungeons by now.

[Lilith]

"Pet" is very commonly used in games for "summon". It's not accurate to compare to our conversational usage of the word.

 

Yeah, it's one of those terms like "buff" that I think originates from MMO slang, or at least was popularised there: it's become semi-standard terminology in a gaming context nowadays.

[mikeprichard]

Good news - Jeff responded to my email (I copied the list from my first post into the body of my message). Here's his response in full:

 

"Thank you for the comments! It will be quite a while until I work on Avadon 3, but I'll certainly see how many of these can fit into the engine as written. Some of these will probably not make it into Avadon 3 but definitely into the Geneforge rewrites (which will use this engine)."

 

Also, could one of the mods please pin/sticky this thread? I'd really like it to stay visible so other players can add suggestions as they see fit over the coming months. Thanks all!

[Cardinal Ape]

I'd really like to be able to move in combat using the keyboard.

[Demseinwetter]

I would love for "Avadon 3" to have more mission for varying party sizes. It's nice to have all companions united at the end, but it'd be amazing to have a larger group best a dragon or an army at some point.

With specific missions designed to be played by larger groups, or smaller groups for that matter, the player would have to adjust more instead of using the same three characters and recurring tactics all the time.

In my opinion, that alone would do a lot to produce a more variable gameplay experience.

 

Also, I think vitality should regenerate, but slowly. Maybe only a few points for thrashing mobs and not using any skills. Because I find that I am saving up on vitality a lot instead of just playing around with the skills. It never gets to the point where I am running out of vitality in a critical situation (does that happen to anyone?), it just means that I'll auto-attack more, which makes combat longer and more repetitive.

[Jerakeen]

I posted about this elsewhere, but who else would like the level cap to be raised/removed? Although I did complete all the available side quests up to that point, I hit the cap during the Hunting M****** main quest - about 2/3 of the way through the game. Apparently there was talk of raising the cap after Avadon 1, but for some reason it didn't happen. Discuss.

 

I was disappointed with this too, but on reflection I realized that there was a good reason for the cap being set where it was. Evidently some or all of the companion quests are distasteful and/or objectionable in some way. The level cap ensures that you don't get penalized if you choose not to do them all. I wonder if and when you hit it if you do none of them.

[Lilith]

I was disappointed with this too, but on reflection I realized that there was a good reason for the cap being set where it was. Evidently some or all of the companion quests are distasteful and/or objectionable in some way. The level cap ensures that you don't get penalized if you choose not to do them all. I wonder if and when you hit it if you do none of them.

 

If you do none of them but all of the other sidequests? My very rough guess would be around the start of the last time you visit the Corruption, or slightly earlier.

[Serene Tempest]

I would love for "Avadon 3" to have more mission for varying party sizes...

 

If I recall correctly, in Avadon 1 when you do your companion side-quests, isn't it just the two of you? I at least seem to remember that being the case for Jenell's quest.

 

And having a handful of "all hands on deck" moments (like, say, the final Miranda fight or storming Konstantina's stronghold) would be pretty awesome, and also heighten the dramatic tension.

 

Another request along the same lines would be the ability to abort the special companion quests. I initially accepted Dedrik's quest, and then changed my mind after meeting the Kva mercenaries, so for the rest of the game every time I traveled to the contested lands I had to take Dedrik with me whether I wanted to or not.

[Furyz]

Does utility shaman even have a choice except maxing dex/end? Summons don't scale with int as far as i know and his main wearpon would be a javelin.

[Lilith]

In the long run even a healing/summoning-based shaman is probably going to want those middle column skills that require investing in Spirit Claw, so an Int-based build is pretty viable too. Not investing in Dex does mean you won't be able to evade most attacks, but in Avadon 2 evasion is a pretty dicey strategy at the best of times anyway.

[Jerakeen]

And with high INT, a shaman can do good damage with offensive scarabs, at least.

[mikeprichard]

In my Normal playthrough, I had Dedrik in my party throughout the game, and I only ever invested in INT, with the whole middle skill column and the three main bottom skills maxed. He was a powerhouse with Spirit Claw.

[Edgwyn]

My build on Normal was very similar to Mikus'. My Shaman was INT/END based, middle skill column primary, left skill column secondary (I do not like summoning creatures). Primary attack was Spirit Claw, I only used Javelins when I needed to outrange a turret. Used the area of effect spells for groups of monsters and healing on my party. He was with me at least 2/3 of the time.

 

As a game play/interface suggestion, now that we can change the gender of the PC, how about being able to choose the genders of our companions?

[Furyz]

In the long run even a healing/summoning-based shaman is probably going to want those middle column skills that require investing in Spirit Claw, so an Int-based build is pretty viable too. Not investing in Dex does mean you won't be able to evade most attacks, but in Avadon 2 evasion is a pretty dicey strategy at the best of times anyway.

 

Well, probably. Since my "main" hand is mage, i use all + magic damage on him, and shaman share items with shadowwalker, which include 2 items with 10% missile damage. I play on torment dif so need every member to be usefull if i choose him. Still find battle mage+utility blademaster+utility tinkermage best party, utility shaman is really good too if you lack heal items. Honestly devs can make another class with tanky spec, expect blademaster, because that class like "must have".

 

Also few fast questions: Does anyone can apply vulnarability curse, except random curse from blademaster?

How does evasion work? I had SW with shadow mask, smooth graves and smth else, with around ~60 evasion, if it work it displays like a missed? because i didn't feel that he actually evade much. And what does enchantment "harder to hit" do? Same as evasion?

[Lilith]

Shadowwalkers and Tinkermages can both tank pretty well, since they can wear good armour, and both have middle-column skills to increase all their resistances and riposte melee attacks.

[Furyz]

Shadowwalkers and Tinkermages can both tank pretty well, since they can wear good armour, and both have middle-column skills to increase all their resistances and riposte melee attacks.

 

Still BM has alot of hp, challenge arond 3-4 lvl helps and regeneration. I agree that they also can be tanks. Riposte isn't that good for defence as parry, since you recieve damage when it works anyway. Also SW have really good ability in utility tree for reflect damage, but using him as utility like idk, he doesn't benefit any other hands and other abilities pretty much don't usefull, except may be aoe stun, which of course rather don't work on serious guys.

 

I'm really interested in vulnerability curse and how to apply it, except random BM curse ( which of course pretty rare ), if anyone know.

 

Also found staff, with strenth and parry, wonder who should use it And who use both magic and melee damage for that enchant 4% to all damage, shadowwalker?

[Lilith]

Still BM has alot of hp, challenge arond 3-4 lvl helps and regeneration. I agree that they also can be tanks. Riposte isn't that good for defence as parry, since you recieve damage when it works anyway. Also SW have really good ability in utility tree for reflect damage, but using him as utility like idk, he doesn't benefit any other hands and other abilities pretty much don't usefull, except may be aoe stun, which of course rather don't work on serious guys.

 

You'd be surprised how many things in the late game are vulnerable to stun. It won't be 100% reliable, but against a large group it'll easily hit enough targets to be worth it.

 

I'm really interested in vulnerability curse and how to apply it, except random BM curse ( which of course pretty rare ), if anyone know.

 

Well, the shaman's Spirit Charge skill (attained by raising Spirit Claw to level 6) is one way to inflict it.

[Furyz]

You'd be surprised how many things in the late game are vulnerable to stun. It won't be 100% reliable, but against a large group it'll easily hit enough targets to be worth it.

 

 

 

 

Idk, BM's terrify work almost as stun and he has single stun ability and still that battle frenzy for all group, warrior's focus, easy choice for me.

[Lilith]

Okay, yeah, if we're bringing Call of the Frenzy into this then the Blademaster looks pretty good. It's not really the Shadowwalker's fault that the Blademaster has the single best support skill in the game, though. Plus, there's no reason you couldn't use a Blademaster and a Shadowwalker: in fact, the backstab bonus means that a melee Shadowwalker benefits a lot from having another melee character in the party.

[Kennedy]

It'd be nice if the game pooled points spent in lock-picking/tool-use. So instead of having one character spend 3 points to get their skill to LVL 4 you could have 3 different characters each spend one point to get their skill to LVL 2 and the effect would be the same.

[Randomizer]

How does evasion work? I had SW with shadow mask, smooth graves and smth else, with around ~60 evasion, if it work it displays like a missed? because i didn't feel that he actually evade much. And what does enchantment "harder to hit" do? Same as evasion?

Evasion reduces your chance of being hit. For trash monsters they wind up with the 5% to autohit. However boss monsters have a higher base chance to hit so even with all the items, they will still have a really good chance of hitting.

 

Harder to hit, deep runestone, is a +5% to evasion which is better than the +2.5% from dexterity or endurance.

[Furyz]

Okay, yeah, if we're bringing Call of the Frenzy into this then the Blademaster looks pretty good. It's not really the Shadowwalker's fault that the Blademaster has the single best support skill in the game, though. Plus, there's no reason you couldn't use a Blademaster and a Shadowwalker: in fact, the backstab bonus means that a melee Shadowwalker benefits a lot from having another melee character in the party.

 

Yea, i kinda like having SW with BM in group, but:

 

My main is mage as i said, so i have 2 spots left in group. BM is must have person for me, so 1 spot left. SW has kinda high critical chance and backstab, making his physical atacks hit pretty hard, but i really love Tinkermage. He has infernal turret, that does usually around 200 AOE damage in turn with that battle frenzy and sometimes can atack three times + i have Alcander himself throwing razordisk for around 150+ damage, depend on target's phys resists + healing or slow or blessing pylon that are really good too, so Pure dps SW still does less ( in my group ) than tinkermage, his aoe not that strong and can't be backstab.

 

Still they might be equal or smth, idk, at someone else group

[Furyz]

Evasion reduces your chance of being hit. For trash monsters they wind up with the 5% to autohit. However boss monsters have a higher base chance to hit so even with all the items, they will still have a really good chance of hitting.

 

Harder to hit, deep runestone, is a +5% to evasion which is better than the +2.5% from dexterity or endurance.

 

Tnx for answer.

[Lilith]

My main is mage as i said, so i have 2 spots left in group. BM is must have person for me, so 1 spot left. SW has kinda high critical chance and backstab, making his physical atacks hit pretty hard, but i really love Tinkermage. He has infernal turret, that does usually around 200 AOE damage in turn with that battle frenzy and sometimes can atack three times + i have Alcander himself throwing razordisk for around 150+ damage, depend on target's phys resists + healing or slow or blessing pylon that are really good too, so Pure dps SW still does less ( in my group ) than tinkermage, his aoe not that strong and can't be backstab.

 

If you've built your shadowwalker for melee (most stat points allocated into Str), that's why its AoE attacks don't seem very strong. They're all based off Dexterity, even the one that's described to make it sound like a melee attack. Yeah, it's annoying that you have to choose between good melee and having any good AoEs at all.

[Earth]

No idea if has been suggested before but I WANT PARTY OF FOUR INTO NEXT AVADON!!!

[springacres]

For Avadon 3, I'm hoping for more in-depth exploration of "enemy" cultures. I wouldn't mind learning more about ogres, titans, Svorgald, or even just more Lynaean history.

[Callie]

My biggest gripe about the game so far is that most enemy turrets and mines are pointless. In most cases, one can simply stand out of range to destroy turrets. Mines can easily be removed, and setting them off is inconsequential because the damage is so low. In other words, navigating enemy traps consists of clicking ad nauseam.

[Lilith]

There's been some speculation that we'll see a lot of Svorgald in Avadon 3, mostly on the basis that it's the only one of the Farlands we haven't really seen anything of yet.

[springacres]

I hope that turns out to be true. Also, if it hasn't been mentioned before, I want more ninja-esque Shadowwalkers in Avadon 3, similar to the models used in Avadon 1. :3

[Sterno]

The single biggest thing I'd like to see is something that tells me how many action points I'll use to move to a certain location. It's really frustrating to think you're clicking 7 squares away (so you can still shoot) when really it's 8, and now you can't.

 

Likewise, when you're trying to move in range and attack by clicking on the enemy, it would be nice if it gave you an indication of whether or not you'll end up moving close enough before attacking, or if you'll spend all the AP on movement. There's a lot of times with my sorcerer where I assume he's in range, click to attack, and he spends all his AP running around some obstacle to get closer and runs out of attack APs. Then he's just left standing there out in the open like a moron.

 

These things are always avoidable if I count squares out, but not having to count the squares manually would be a huge UI improvement.

[stranger]

Yes, you basically have to move one square at a time and keep checking your range if you want to be sure.

This issue has been raised many times.

[Lilith]

Hmm. Probably the easiest implementation would be to have a range counter appear below the cursor. That would assume a straight path, though, so it wouldn't be a perfect guide. But the only way to get a truly accurate measure of movement distance would be to recalculate the pathfinding algorithm every time the cursor moved, which would likely make the interface bog down.

[Khoth]

It shouldn't bog things down much, if there's some mild cleverness in caching instead of recalculating all the time.

[Lilith]

It shouldn't bog things down much, if there's some mild cleverness in caching instead of recalculating all the time.

 

That is a fair point. As a counterpoint, have you seen BoE's source code? The guy who wrote that is the guy who would have to implement whatever solutions we're suggesting.

[springacres]

Also, please no prisoners asking to be punished.

My shaman was wandering around the dungeons looking for volunteers for Laria. He started talking to Admes (steward from Avadon 1 who was spying for Svorgald) and right off the bat Admes was all "Punish me, I've been bad!"

 

My character's reaction: "Um... I'm not responsible for torturing prisoners. And I don't swing that way."

 

[Lilith]

Also, please no prisoners asking to be punished.

My male shaman was wandering around the dungeons looking for volunteers for Laria. He started talking to Admes (steward from Avadon 1 who was spying for Svorgald) and right off the bat Admes was all "Punish me, I've been bad!"

 

 

Well, if you report back to Eye Mamora on that guy...

 

 

the reason he wants to be mind-probed is that then there's a chance they'll let him go afterwards, instead of just keeping him in the dungeon forever.

 

[springacres]

...Which doesn't make it any less disturbing. At least to people with dirty minds. XD