Wishlist for Avadon 3 - interface/gameplay suggestions

[Cobicles]

Four things that I'd love to see:

1. Smarter/slightly revamped inventory system - In particular, I hate how whenever you obtain an item, it just puts it in the first available slot. I try to sort my inventory (scrolls on a row, potions on a row, etc), but whenever I complete a quest I suddenly have random objects threaded throughout my inventory. It would also be nice if you could put objects directly from the ground/forge/etc onto your character rather than immediately have it go into your inventory.
   
2. Give us the option to let terrified creatures go - I can't count how many times in a battle a creature gets terrified and starts to run off but gets stopped by a party member. There are times where I'd love it if the creature temporarily removes itself from the battlefield so I can concentrate on other things.
   
3. Either get rid of lighting, or make lighting matter - I always stockpile candles/lanterns, which takes up items slots. I keep expecting an Avernum-like situation to come up where we need to have a light source. Otherwise, it feels like I'm holding on to stuff for no reason.
   
4. A bestiary or enemy knowledge ability - OK, this one is never going to happen, but here goes: it would be cool if there was an in-game way to keep track of the monsters you face and their immunities/weaknesses. I tend to play the sorcerer/sorceress class, and I'm always afraid to attack the demonic creatures because I know some of them are immune to fire. However, but I never can remember which ones. So, I think it would be cool if, as you played the game, your character "learned" about the creatures you fought. When you go into subsequent battle with creatures you've already seen, maybe you have a popup box or hover text that gives some of your learned knowledge. Even better would be if one of the skills that you can invest points in gave you bonuses such as a.) your study of said skill lets you know facts about some creatures before you experience them the first time, or b.) you get combat advantages against some creatures in the form of defense/weapon damage/crit chance/etc modifiers. Like I said, this will never be implemented, but I could see an interesting system being made out of this.
   

[Kelandon]

[*]A bestiary or enemy knowledge ability - OK, this one is never going to happen, but here goes: it would be cool if there was an in-game way to keep track of the monsters you face and their immunities/weaknesses. I tend to play the sorcerer/sorceress class, and I'm always afraid to attack the demonic creatures because I know some of them are immune to fire. However, but I never can remember which ones. So, I think it would be cool if, as you played the game, your character "learned" about the creatures you fought. When you go into subsequent battle with creatures you've already seen, maybe you have a popup box or hover text that gives some of your learned knowledge. Even better would be if one of the skills that you can invest points in gave you bonuses such as a.) your study of said skill lets you know facts about some creatures before you experience them the first time, or b.) you get combat advantages against some creatures in the form of defense/weapon damage/crit chance/etc modifiers. Like I said, this will never be implemented, but I could see an interesting system being made out of this.

If I remember correctly, Exile had a Scry Monster spell, and I've never been clear why it was eliminated and not replaced with something equivalent.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

scry monster also gave you remaining hitpoints which was useful in long battles.

Either you were almost done, or you were going to be there for a while

[Crystal Chaos]

I just played Avadon 2 anaother time and I would like to a suggestion :

 

I love the way we can buy houses. It'll be even better if we could do more improvements to it : with mini-quests, we could clean it, add containers or whatever, instead of just buying 3 things to the local shop.

[Mea Tulpa]

If I remember correctly, Exile had a Scry Monster spell, and I've never been clear why it was eliminated and not replaced with something equivalent.

That's easy. The more time has passed, the more generic enemy stats have become. In Exile 2 Scry Monster was fascinating, because different monsters had different combinations of HP, combat skill, armor, attack types, number of attacks, AP, resistances, special abilities, spellcasting, racial modifiers, and so on. All sorts of stuff was different. Now basically all you'd see would be a level, a list of attacks, and occasionally an immunity. Very uncommonly, you'd see another modifier. But most of the time, stats, resistances, HP, and everything else are determined entirely by level.

[Kelandon]

That's easy. The more time has passed, the more generic enemy stats have become. In Exile 2 Scry Monster was fascinating, because different monsters had different combinations of HP, combat skill, armor, attack types, number of attacks, AP, resistances, special abilities, spellcasting, racial modifiers, and so on. All sorts of stuff was different. Now basically all you'd see would be a level, a list of attacks, and occasionally an immunity. Very uncommonly, you'd see another modifier. But most of the time, stats, resistances, HP, and everything else are determined entirely by level.

But that's clearly wrong. Jeff didn't drop Scry Monster in Avadon 2. He dropped it in Avernum 1, back when everything was much more complicated than it is now. So that's not why he dropped it. (I'm particularly thinking of BoA, which could sorely use a Scry Monster spell, because all of those things you mentioned — HP, combat skill, armor, etc. — still existed at that point.)

 

Even in the more recent games, figuring out certain aspects of creatures (especially immunities) can be a pain. Not seriously so, but enough that it seems like Scry Monster would be a convenience.

[Jerakeen]

Yes, but at least the creature names often give some sort of hint, eg. Runewarded this, Fiery that.

[Mea Tulpa]

But that's clearly wrong. Jeff didn't drop Scry Monster in Avadon 2. He dropped it in Avernum 1, back when everything was much more complicated than it is now. So that's not why he dropped it. (I'm particularly thinking of BoA, which could sorely use a Scry Monster spell, because all of those things you mentioned — HP, combat skill, armor, etc. — still existed at that point.)

 

Even in the more recent games, figuring out certain aspects of creatures (especially immunities) can be a pain. Not seriously so, but enough that it seems like Scry Monster would be a convenience.

That's true. It doesn't take away from your point, but I would point out that Scry Monster did not exist in Exile 1 either, and some of the other new-to-Exile-2 spells were in fact reintroduced in Avernum 2 -- including Capture Soul and Simulacrum, which also both involve messing with enemy data.

[Meri20098]

Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm not done with avadon 1 yet but my one wish list item is using the arrow keys to move instead of them just moving the map which I honest have to admit is really annoying. It's the same with the geneforge series too.

 

Sorry Jeff, just being honest

[Earth]

its same in Avadon 2 too, arrows move map not main char.

[Arachnophiliac]

One more vote for adding keyboard movement keys, both in and out of combat (similar to Avernum). I prefer keyboard over mouse, partly to avoid aggravating carpal tunnel. It was even possible in Avernum to target mobs using keystrokes -- a nice touch (and surely easy to implement?).

[Forget it]

I thought of one. When you record an encounter in your notebook, I'd like if it said where the encounter was, instead of having only the ubiquitous title of "Special Encounter."

[maddz]

What I'd like to see is an auto-generated list of locations which populates as you discover new areas which is annotable by the player. I'd been playing the iPad remakes of the Avernum and Avadon series and it's a real chore to remember which doors etc you need to revisit with more lockpicks or a different party mix down the line. On a desktop machine you can use a notepad or scribble it on a piece of paper, but on a commute with an iPad it's a real faff. Even an in-game notepad would be useful.

 

Some kind of an aura that shows on an activatable container would be useful too, I get confused between games with the different graphics for lootable containers. Please also consider once a container or a door has been opened it should stay open unless you actually close it (and not reset when you leave the area). I've had to resort to carrying rocks and other stackable unsalable items around with me and dropping something beside the container to indicate I've emptied it. It's really annoying when you go back through an area to remember which containers have been emptied of useful items and which now only contain junk.

 

Also, please remember your aging audience and give us the ability to scale the graphics so you can actually see hidden switches, on floor items and click character editor buttons! On an iPad mini, targetting switches and clicking buttons is really hit and miss, and I've lost count of the number of times I've run round to the other side of a wall instead of activating a switch.

[Vent]

No idea if has been suggested before but I WANT PARTY OF FOUR INTO NEXT AVADON!!!

Still wonder why Avadon 2 hasn't that already.

[Triumph]

I guess this isn't technically a gameplay / interface request, but I would really really really love some closure as to the fates of the Hands that accompanied the PC in the first two games.

[Dear Potato]

I guess this isn't technically a gameplay / interface request, but I would really really really love some closure as to the fates of the Hands that accompanied the PC in the first two games.

 

Yep, completely true. I'm specially intrigued about the fate of Nathalie.

[Mechalibur]

I'm especially curious about Yannick. Something weird happened to him in that temple, and I want to know what consequences it will have down the line.

[Edgwyn]

Unfortunately, Jeff tends not to reveal/create a canon future for the PCs. He does a great job with the NPCs, but with the PCs he doesn't seem to want to imply what path that the player should have taken.

[Triumph]

Prior to Avadon, the closest Jeff came to PC-NPCs, characters that were in your party but had some kind of independent personality / existence and weren't just player creations, were Greta and Alwan in G3. Before Avadon 1, they were his only big experiment in party members that were people (well, I guess the temporarily joined NPC party members in Nethergate would count, but they didn't have anywhere near the role Alwan and Greta did). And Jeff had no problem incorporating your former party members from G3 into the continuing Geneforge storyline of G4 and G5. So I see no reason why he would get hung up on reusing the NPC party members of the Avadon games now.

 

Plus, the Generforge games always pretty clearly had strong implications about path the protagonist of the previous story had taken, based simply on who was still alive in the next game and who had died off. Now, in some cases the path the canon protagonists took didn't match any path actually open to us players, but that doesn't negate the fact that a "canon" story outcome came about.

[shout27]

Honestly, the biggest thing I miss about the spidweb games nowadays is freedom of choice. Back in Exile you could explore a lot, and while the spell list may have been a bit bloated, eventually you started to experiment to see what you liked. Avernum cut back a bit and did some interesting things, but the one skill level up per level was irritating when I was playing catch up on my secondary skills. Avadon? Just finished TBF and am working on TC... TBF honestly felt pointless. You couldn't even affect the beginning world state of TC by deciding what happened at the end of TBF.

 

I'm really not sure what to say about TBF, beyond that all choices seemed to lead to the same road in general.

 

It was really disappointing to be honest.

 

I saw that the skill tree is getting dumped and I'm happy with that.

 

I guess what I'm asking for at the end, is what I expected at the beginning, a story path that actually diverges into different endings over the course of your adventures and some choices that could seem innocent having major repercussions.

 

In other words, I'd like that spirit of choice back.

[Randomizer]

Jeff has been eliminating choice because it's easier to balance encounter difficulties if everyone is almost the same. Otherwise the people that only do the main quests are too weak for the required boss fights compared to the ones that do every side quest.

 

Yeah I miss letting repeated character deaths determine where I could go. If I could survive, then I wanted to keep exploring.

[shout27]

Jeff has been eliminating choice because it's easier to balance encounter difficulties if everyone is almost the same. Otherwise the people that only do the main quests are too weak for the required boss fights compared to the ones that do every side quest.

 

Yeah I miss letting repeated character deaths determine where I could go. If I could survive, then I wanted to keep exploring.

 

I figured that out early on, but I can honestly say that, to me, choice is what makes a great game. If Avadon, or it's equivalent, had been the game to be released instead of the Exile series? I'd have never picked up a spidweb software game again.

 

Period.

 

There are plenty of crpg gems out there that don't sacrifice choice for ease of planning and are awesome games. I simply wouldn't have had the patience to tolerate a story that goes at it's own pace and actively sabotoges any of my attempts to change the point A to point B progression of the story.

 

It wasn't helped when I hit the level cap well before the end game and had to take a 'wtf?' moment that human elite soldiers, who weren't you and hadn't done half the legendary stuff you'd been up to, were able to fight you on even footing with iron swords(at least, that's what they dropped). The Titans weren't as tough as they were. I had to seriously stop for a time and think about whether I really wanted to slog through hours worth of end-game enemies of that toughness, with nothing to show for it besides that little bit of petty vengeance against the story path, when the story said I should run.

 

I also didn't appreciate being unable to help Nathalie out of her descent into insanity.

 

Honestly, just talking about my issues with TBF makes me wonder if I should even pick up the Warborn if all I have to look forward to is more of the same.

[Lilith]

Honestly, just talking about my issues with TBF makes me wonder if I should even pick up the Warborn if all I have to look forward to is more of the same.

 

All Spiderweb games come with a free demo that generally provides a pretty good idea of what the gameplay, plot and setting are going to be like, so you can always wait until that comes out to make your decision.

[Mea Tulpa]

I saw that the skill tree is getting dumped and I'm happy with that.

Is this a thing? I don't think this is happening, is it?

 

I guess what I'm asking for at the end, is what I expected at the beginning, a story path that actually diverges into different endings over the course of your adventures and some choices that could seem innocent having major repercussions.

 

In other words, I'd like that spirit of choice back.

There's more than one way to do choice. For example, the "innocent choices have unforeseeable, major repercussions" mode of things turns off some players. You mentioned CRPG gems that live up to these ideals earlier -- I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about what the best exemplars are.

[shout27]

Is this a thing? I don't think this is happening, is it?

I was talking about the skill requirements. I never understood why my character had to be an awesome swordsman to be awesome at throwing ninja stars.

 

There's more than one way to do choice. For example, the "innocent choices have unforeseeable, major repercussions" mode of things turns off some players. You mentioned CRPG gems that live up to these ideals earlier -- I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about what the best exemplars are.

 

Fallout 1+2, Wizardry 8, Planescape:Torment, Baldur's Gate series, Dragon Wars, The Elder Scrolls series, there are others that I can't think of off the top of my head. I don't need an awesomely branching story, but I hate the illusion of choice that is no choice. Like the Shadow beast, for example, spent the whole time trying to figure out how to interact with it and despite giving the big bad no clues he's suddenly there and we're 'allies' against the critter. Then there are the various individuals that you can 'capture' only for them to suddenly change their minds and fight you to the death anyways. If I want to feel useless in the grand scheme of things, all I have to do is look at my current job... not play the game that's supposed to distract me from my troubles.

[Mea Tulpa]

Yeah, those are good points. I had the same reaction to the Shadow Beast scenario... it seems that in Avadon 1, much like in Geneforge 3, Jeff deliberately wanted the player to feel that way, that there was really no way to accomplish the seemingly obvious ethical choice. In Avadon 1's case there is, at least, a plausible in-story reason for it -- the manipulations of a certain NPC, who explicitly wanted the PC's to feel that way, too. I don't think any of the other SW games are quite as bad that way, though some are better than others. I'd argue that Geneforge 1 is the best on that criteria.

 

Ironically, your list of games includes some of the titles that Jeff has most frequently cited as influences. Actually, I think he's cited ALL of those as influences...

[Dragonboy]

The best part about Exile 1 was not that there was a branching storyline, the story is basically the same no matter how you play it, but that the game gave you freedom to do whatever you want at any time that you want. Want head to the magical center of Exile in the beginning? Hop on down south. Feel up to some dragon killing now? Take your pick, we've got five (well, as long as you don't kill them to early). Take a hike into the scary abyss or bumble around the honeycomb. Want to get revenge on the Empire at long last? Go ahead, or just spend time with the GIFTS.

 

I actually like JRPGs but I'm a bit disappointed that Jeff's going in that direction.

[Kelandon]

I've probably said this before somewhere, but I thought that the problem with Avadon 1's "choice" approach was that it gave the illusion of choice while denying the actual fact of choice. You're presented with a lot of seemingly consequential decisions, and it turns out basically none of them matter. I didn't mind the lack of plot choice in Avernum, because Avernum never pretended to give me consequential plot choices. Avadon 1, on the other hand, feels like a bait-and-switch.

 

Avadon 2 does better in this regard, but it's still not the equal of the Geneforge Series in terms of handling choices well.

[Lilith]

I've probably said this before somewhere, but I thought that the problem with Avadon 1's "choice" approach was that it gave the illusion of choice while denying the actual fact of choice. You're presented with a lot of seemingly consequential decisions, and it turns out basically none of them matter. I didn't mind the lack of plot choice in Avernum, because Avernum never pretended to give me consequential plot choices. Avadon 1, on the other hand, feels like a bait-and-switch.

 

Jeff's actually written a bit about this exact issue on this blog: he feels false choices are important even if they don't affect the plot, because they let you establish what kind of a character you're playing. I'm not sure I 100% buy that, but that's his justification for what it's worth.

[Mea Tulpa]

How in the world is Jeff going in the direction of JRPGs?

[Dragonboy]

How in the world is Jeff going in the direction of JRPGs?

 

I meant that there's a lot more forced progress in how you play the game. JRPG's typically have a rigid story, dragging you from plot point to plot point. You have to defeat this boss or some other quest to get to the next area. (I actually like this in a way, because the story itself tends be stronger for it as the writers can write an epic story without having to factor in everything the PC may or may not do. But I also like the Exile series exactly because it doesn't do it.) For example, in the Exile series and the first two Geneforges you could basically go anywhere in the gameworld right from the start if you really wanted to and do quests in any order you like. In G3 you had to go through island one to get to island two and so forth, each time having to defeat a certain boss or complete some mission. G4 and G5 are smiliar, with the games being divided into five basic sections that you have to one before the other. A4 A6 and especially A5 string you along through the whole game from area to area. Do X to get permission to go to area Y. Avadon follows basically the same pattern with new areas only opening up after you do X. There is some backtracking, but that tends to be for plot reasons.

 

I'm not saying that Spiderweb games are going to completely JRPG, because they most definitely not, but the rigid storytelling is somewhat similar.

 

I think a false choice is better than no choice only when the games doesn't make you feel like it was a false choice. Otherwise, I just get annoyed at the developer for dangling the option in front of me and jerking it away.

[Mea Tulpa]

OK, yeah. All the new SW games have been like this from G3 onward, which means for the past 11 years, so I'm not sure there's any change in direction in the past decade. And I would still say that "JRPG-like" would be a pretty inaccurate description for this type of storytelling, but I guess they are both linear.

[Randomizer]

In the Avernum remakes, Jeff has been making the games more linear with additional minor quests to push players in the right direction for the next part of the main quest line. You still get to explore, but where to go next is better defined. Also there are more places where you can't do quest fights or get the items without getting the quest first.

[Dragonboy]

OK, yeah. All the new SW games have been like this from G3 onward, which means for the past 11 years, so I'm not sure there's any change in direction in the past decade. And I would still say that "JRPG-like" would be a pretty inaccurate description for this type of storytelling, but I guess they are both linear.

 

I agree, but that was best way I could describe the way that the newer games feel to me. Spiderweb Software games are still very much Western RPGs and I don't see that changing.

 

I would argue that Avadon is more linear than any of the previous games. I never felt like I could deviate that much from what I was supposed to do.

[Mea Tulpa]

In the Avernum remakes, Jeff has been making the games more linear with additional minor quests to push players in the right direction for the next part of the main quest line.

This is totally and completely untrue, because that's not what "linear" means. In A:EFTP and A2:CS, the quest lines proceed exactly the same way as they did before. There's more guidance or suggestions of where chains continue, I guess, but the games are not one whit more linear than the Exile versions. "More pointers on where the next quest in a chain is" and "Linear" are completely different things in the world of RPGs, as ought to be completely obvious if you've played, say, both A2:CS and Avadon 2.

[Randomizer]

You didn't include the part I wrote at the end where Jeff has now added SDFs so you can't do things out of order anymore. Exile let you do whatever you wanted. Avernum added SDFs that blocked actions if you weren't doing it in a linear manner.

 

Jeff's games aren't quite to the level where you have to do straight line with no deviations, but they are heading there even in remakes. He keeps adding more restrictions.

 

An example is in A2:CS, the tutorial now requires picking up the first leather helmet and equipping it to proceed.

[Mea Tulpa]

Yes, I didn't include that part because I wasn't arguing with it. I was responding to the first sentence, which I continue to strongly disagree with.

 

Look, "linear" and "non-linear" don't refer to how a game's tutorial is structured. A:EFTP, just like E:EFTP, allows you to do almost everything in whatever order you want. Going to new map sections, visiting towns, fighting through dungeons, talking to people... there are sometimes some prerequisites, but the player has near-total freedom to do things in whatever order. There is not a fixed, linear order. Even the game-winning quest chains can be completed in whatever order the player chooses. This is the definition of open-world, non-linear gameplay. The fact that there are now more pointers to certain quests, does not change any of that.

 

The same thing is true of A2:CS, which is as free and open as E2:CS was. There is one very linear aspect to the game: the Dark Waters chapter -- but that was in E2 as well! After that, it's as non-linear as A:EFTP. The fact that the tutorial makes you put on a helmet does not change the general structure of the game.

 

This is so, so far from gameplay that is a "straight line with no deviations." The games are very clearly not headed there "even in remakes." Avadon is certainly much more linear than the early games, but it's not that much more linear than G3, G4, A4, or A5 were. But in between those games and Avadon, you had the mild to moderately linear G5 and A6. So, there was a big shift towards linearity around 2005, but if you look at the past 11 years of Spiderweb releases, there is not much movement in that direction.

[Dragonboy]

Slarty, what about this?

 

Take Avernum 6. It is has a very linear story, you hit the same plot points every time you play. Even if you go for any of the alternate endings, that all happens at very end game. You hit the same plot points up to the end and they play out the same way. Comparing that to Avadon 1. It also has a linear story. You hit the same plot points every time and they play out the same way. Even the alternate ending requires you to hit virtually all the same plot points as the normal ending.

 

In that way, Avernum 6 and Avadon 1 had equally linear stories. The stories vary very little (in game) when you replay them.

 

On the other hand, in Avernum 6 you hit gigantic areas like the eastern gallery and the great cave. Even though you know you have to do X to proceed, you just get plain lost in the hundreds of sidequests. You totally forget your main mission as you spend hours scouring through every dark corner to find hidden caches. When you finally get back to the plot, it almost feels like you chose to further the plot rather than it being forced on you. Avadon 1, on the other hand, does not have huge open areas like Avernum 6. Each area is only accessible via the plot and you constantly have to keep running back to Redbeard to further the plot to get to new areas. There is little straying from the plot for at the end of every area you have to haul yourself back for a talk with Redbeard. There are no vasts areas of unexplored territory to simply lose yourself into. It just feels like you're being yanked here and there at the whim of the plot.

[Mea Tulpa]

http://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/2492-article-rollick/

[Dragonboy]

That post is actually kind of fascinating to read, but I'm not sure which part of the post you intended for this discussion. All of it or just the definition of linearity? Because in regard to the actual opening post, I'm not going to say Avadon was worse than the other games just because I felt squashed by the plot. That's your personal choice. I didn't happen to enjoy it as much as the earlier Spiderweb games for that reason but I think the popularity of the game speaks for itself.

[Kelandon]

Jeff's actually written a bit about this exact issue on this blog: he feels false choices are important even if they don't affect the plot, because they let you establish what kind of a character you're playing. I'm not sure I 100% buy that, but that's his justification for what it's worth.

I read that blog post, and I buy it 0%. It presumes someone who thinks entirely differently about RPGs than I do.

 

With regard to the subsequent discussion: I think that balancing the games better — and increasing the steepness of the difficulty levels — leads to a feeling of greater linearity. As I understand it, in the Exile Trilogy, if you set up your stats properly, you could go pretty much anywhere at any time, because you could fight most anything pretty immediately. In the original Avernum Trilogy, there are some limits — you should start by fighting pretty easy things early on — but the game opens up pretty quickly and you can go more or less anywhere. In the remade Avernum Trilogy, if you're playing on Hard or Torment, it's hard to go anywhere except to the next place with slightly higher-level monsters, because you'll just get squashed if you try to go out of sequence. Now, there may be several different places where you can go, but it doesn't feel as totally wide open as in the original Avernum Trilogy, because the combats just get out of hand too quickly.

 

This relates to the minor quests that nudge you forward and the greater pointers on where to go next because it is often the case that you can only go there next, or that is one of maybe three places you can go, because the combat difficulty rises too steeply if you go anywhere else. So the experience of playing can end up being that the game pretty much tells you where to go, and if you deviate much, you die. And this has become more and more true with each remake because each remake is better balanced and the last set has steeper difficulty levels. (I remember the difficulty levels being essentially meaningless when they were first introduced in, what, Avernum 3, I think?)

 

I think that playing on Casual would be really different, though, and the experience might be pretty different if you knew more than I do about which stats to improve and which not to. Then you could probably wander much more freely.

[Dragonboy]

To be noted, in second Avernum trilogy there are pyshical barriers stopping progress not technical ones (i.e. Very powerful monsters). Jeff does it that way because much easier to plan battles for the players when you know what their levels are. I'm not sure if he also does it for simpler story telling reasons, but it's certainly possible.

[Mea Tulpa]

As I understand it, in the Exile Trilogy, if you set up your stats properly, you could go pretty much anywhere at any time, because you could fight most anything pretty immediately.

 

Nope. You certainly CAN get to a point MID-game where you can handle anything, but at low levels that isn't possible - and even at mid-levels it requires effectively focusing on key items/spells/skills. More relevantly, though, that describes A:EFTP and A2:CS at least as well! AR + AoE Spells + defenses is just the new Bless + Haste + DW + Null Bug.

[Kelandon]

Nope.

Yup.

[Dragonboy]

Someone should do a level one challenge for the exile trilogy to see who's right.

 

(Seriously though, I'm going with Slarty on this one. You do hit a point relatively quick where you can handle nearly everything the game throws at you, but that's after gaining several levels. Good luck wandering though the slith temple with a brand new party.)

[Randomizer]

In Exile 1 or was it Avernum 1, a brand new party can be quite powerful since a mage can start with Lightning Bolt, but little spell energy to cast it repeatedly. So it's attack to kill a few monsters and retreat to recharge. You can gain levels quickly, but you still can't go everywhere.

 

Jeff fixed that little thing with a spell limit by the second game.

[Dragonboy]

It was Avernum 1 and it was Lightning Spray to be exact. And there was a party creation spell limit in A1. It was just higher than any of the later games.

In Exile you were stuck with the first three spell levels in the beginning no matter what. As regards to Avernum 1, it would depend a lot on if your playing on Torment or Casual. I play on Torment and even the earliest of enemies just dominate you for the first few levels unless you're really careful. On Casual I imagine you can get around to a lot of places early on.

[Mea Tulpa]

(Re: Exile) That's after gaining more than several levels. Typically, that's after gaining 15-20 levels or more, and travelling through most map areas in order to get the best spells and items that can be easily acquired. I fail to see how that's any different from the Avernum remakes. Especially not if we compare with A:EFTP, in which you can get +weapon skill items and trainers super early and catapult into Adrenaline Rush and instant death from AoE spam, before you even hit level 10.

[Lilith]

i'd say there are a couple of big differences in trying to punch above your weight in exile vs. the new avernums:

 

1) in exile your hit rate doesn't depend to a major extent on your enemy's level, and the damage you inflict doesn't scale up as strongly with your level as it does in a:eftp. this means that in exile you can pretty much always at least do meaningful damage to your enemies, whereas in the new avernums if you fight something that significantly outlevels you you'll spend most of your time missing and the rest of your time doing very little damage, especially on higher difficulties

 

2) the way the HP system works means that enemies can't one-shot you; no matter how low your health is, you need to take at least two hits before you die. a single powerful enemy that doesn't make multiple attacks per round basically can't kill you for as long as your healers' spell points hold out. (you get a multi-target healing spell earlier in exile than in the new avernums, too)

 

bonus point 3) luck is just a ridiculously overpowered skill in exile and if you're willing to invest a few points in it you can savescum your way through almost any encounter in the game with enough patience, even at very low levels, especially since it's possible to end combat at the end of every round to save your game (which also conveniently prevents enemies from acting more than once even if they're hasted, making point 2 even more helpful)

 

an exile party and an a:eftp party are both probably gonna get wrecked by large groups of overlevelled enemies (especially if there are magic-users among them), but in exile you can take on, say, a single drake or even a haakai at level 1 if you know what you're doing and have a little bit of luck on your side, while in a:eftp you won't stand a chance. both series have quite a few fixed encounters with one or two monsters that are extra strong for the area you find them in so this is actually a pretty meaningful difference

[Dragonboy]

Your spot on Lilith. At about level ten I think, there's virtually no place you can't go on the world map. You can't beat the Final Gauntlet but you can pretty much go anywhere you feel like. You'll have about a hundred hit points for the fighters and very good weapon skills and the Mages will have a decent amount of energy. Major Blessing can easily be gotten early in the game (Nephil Fortress) that is a major boost to you combat prowess. You also have six pcs instead of four, so that helps.

 

In AEFTP on the other hand, outdoor battles can kill you in one round easily. I mean, there was one outdoor Giant encounter that consistently killed my entire party before I could finish my first turn, and that was when my party was at maximum level.