Suggestion for Jeff's Blog

[jetcitywoman]

I enjoy reading Jeff's blog posts when he discusses things he's learned about designing games, what is fun and what kills the fun, etc. I respect his mature and thoughtful analysis because he admits to making mistakes and learning and it just shows in the Spiderweb games that he knows something about good game design principles.

 

I would love to hear his thoughts about gender roles in games. Not so much about the violent/sexual games that portray all women as objects, that's been written about elsewhere. But about how HE portrays the genders in HIS games; has he made trade-offs or lost business by not objectifying women? Is it a hard decision to know how to dress the character portraits? Can he reveal the male/female demographics of his customer base? When he has artwork of a female in a skimpy dress, does he get complaints? Has he gotten any complaints about the nearly nude male character in the latest Avernum game? (Personally, I loved it!) Is dealing with gender a challenge when doing game design or marketing?

[Dantius]

There was a medium hubbub about a year or so ago when a few of the higher-up members took issue with Avadon's portrayal of gender-roles, namely that both "physical" classes were males, and both weaker, magic-oriented classes were female (and your companions followed this divide, too). I don't think there was much business lost, since Avadon sold waaay better than any prior SW game.

 

There's also some periodic complaints that Agents in Geneforge have to be female but those are generally low-key whining among people who already bought the games, so that wouldn't affect sales much either.

 

So no, I think it's something that people might applaud being fixed, but nobody buys/does not buy Jeff's games based on gender roles.

[Enraged Slith]

I wonder how much say Jeff has in the artistic direction of his games. I would bet he never explicitly asked for the nipple dress; he could have added those himself.

[Callie]

I laughed at one of the character portraits you could choose from in AEFTP - a woman with a chain-mail bikini. The previous incarnation had a default Cordelia character with an outrageous dress. I guess that's what happens when a game's players are mostly male.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

I laughed at one of the character portraits you could choose from in AEFTP - a woman with a chain-mail bikini

The man in the chain-mail bikini is still available too, right?

Dikiyoba.

[Men are from Slars]

While it would be believable that the scantily clad women (and men, but mainly the women) are there out of pure profit motive and/or male hormones, as seems to be the case with most scantily clad fantasy women, I think that's not the case here.

 

Why? Even Exile 1 had icons of scantily clad men and women. The guy looked pretty stereotypically barbarianish. The girl did have more of a chainmail bikini look, but it struck me more as a legitimate barbarian/superhero outfit (whatever that phrase even means) and less as deliberate flesh. Nothing was emphasized, and it could have been fleshier, even.

 

No, I think this is just part of Jeff's fantasy trope -- along with the turgid, fleshy sex drones of Almaria. (Which I was disappointed to find are not hidden anywhere in AEFTP's data.)

[jetcitywoman]

I also wonder if Jeff's wife moderates some of the character portraits. She seems to stay behind the scenes, but we know she works in the business end of things. And I also get the sense from the Story of the Baby/Toddler series that she's a strong, sensible woman. Even if it's not an official thing I wouldn't be surprise to learn that she occasionally sees a character portrait and thumps him on the head to tone it down. :-)

 

When I was beta testing, I sent him a compliment about having avernum populated about equally with nearly nude men and women. I don't mind sexism, as long as its equal opportunity!

 

Anybody here have a sense of the demographic breakdown of the customer base?

[Micawber]

I think it's also likely Jeff himself restrains the art, since he wants the games to be family-friendly. After all, he is marketing to a lot of teens who rely on their parents to make payment.

 

In terms of demographics, I would guess that the majority of customers are teenaged or young adult males. But not exclusively. Anyway some of the male clients might like the 'nearly nude' men as well, who knows.

[Enraged Slith]

I didn't think professional artists would have to be "restrained", but a quick search on google images disproves that claim.

[Soul of Wit]

Am I off-base in saying that I see a lot of prudes on here? I understand the family-friendly nature of Jeff's games, but this is the fantasy genre. A chainmail bikini is not likely to drive even a conservative parent to deletion of a SW game. Am I wrong here?

 

Personally, I don't see much thrill in, say, a topless Ariel (yes, that mermaid,) but a quick intertubes search proves that there is such a demographic. The more traditional fantasy genre is rife with suggestive imagery. Most of the people that I have met with a strong interest in fantasy imagery have been female.

 

As for gender roles in Jeff's games? I pretty much ignore them. Once I've seen one female commander, my recognition of the sexes goes bye-bye. For the later Avernum games, I ran four genderless (to me) nephils with the same avatar. I simply altered them to four different colors. My party order was ROYGBIV (ROGB, to be precise.)

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith

I didn't think professional artists would have to be "restrained", but a quick search on google images disproves that claim.

some do nudiity art under other name.

[Death Knight]

I like the way jeff does things with regards to gender roles. You can in reality see it in a different way. In my opinion, its just right. I look at the most powerful characters that you can play as, they were mostly women. The sorceress in avadon, the agents in geneforge, the shocktroopers. Any rogue character in avernum in my opinion i always play female because since playing the agent in geneforge 1, i find that to be awesome where playing a male rogue just isnt cool for me.

 

You can look at all of jeff's games and there are powerful characters on both sides. I think its done better than most of other games out there.

[nikki.]

Sadly, it may be less about Jeff wanting a good balance with regards to gender roles, and more about him digging strong female characters (I can't find the relevant quote right now, but yeah).

[Randomizer]

It's more about saving time and money with extra sets of graphics.

[Necris Omega]

I could easily be wrong, as I've a penchant for being wrong, but wasn't one of the issues Jeff brought up with the next potential Avadon being a desire to remove the gender-specific class restrictions?

[Death Knight]

Thats correct. So there will be female blade masters and shadow walkers just as male shamans and well....im not sure about male sorceresses.

[Men are from Slars]

Sorcerers.

[Jerakeen]

Sorcerons?

[Alorael at Large]

Sorcerpersons.

 

—Alorael, who believes Jeff was up front about it being all about money. Specifically halving character sprite costs.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Have we though about downgrading the graphics? That could cut costs and stop this gender issue. Just write the games with gender-neutral pronouns and let the player design! It's like Dr. Sheldon Cooper says - the most powerful graphics are our imaginations.

[Men are from Slars]

Oh, right. Saucerors.

[Dantius]

Sourceror, if Sir Terry Pratchett is to be believed (he is).

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Have we though about downgrading the graphics? That could cut costs and stop this gender issue. Just write the games with gender-neutral pronouns and let the player design! It's like Dr. Sheldon Cooper says - the most powerful graphics are our imaginations.

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not. If it isn't: to make character graphics non-gendered, Jeff would pretty much have to write ascii games. My impression from his blog and comments elsewhere is that Jeff has no interest in horning in on NetHack's market share.

On the subject of strong female characters more generally: I like the way Jeff deals with gender in his works. I wasn't crazy about the class/gender division in Avadon, but aside from that I think he deals with the subject thoughtfully. The objectification is mild and bidirectional. There are many women in positions of power (more than in most sectors of the modern world, let alone the medieval/ancient world), but it isn't just all happy fun gender equality land. Outside of utopian works, the latter tends to involve the least thought on gender, since it ignores the sociological factors that lead to gender inequality, and arguably denigrates the hard work of people in the real world who work/have worked for equal rights. Unlike in the aforementioned type of work, gender (and associated roles, jockeying for position, relative equality and inequality, etc.) is a topic that comes up in Jeff's works, albeit not their main focus.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

...the latter tends to involve the least thought on gender, since it ignores the sociological factors that lead to gender inequality, and arguably denigrates the hard work of people in the real world who work/have worked for equal rights.

Escapism. Sometimes it's nice to stop dealing with real world issues for a bit.

Dikiyoba.

[Men are from Slars]

One thing I found interesting about AEFTP is that Erika's character has been gradually made less sharp. Compare:

 

---

 

EXILE:EFTP:

There is a piercingly beautiful woman sitting in the

throne. She looks at you with an expression of haughtiness and utter

confidence.

 

AVERNUM:

A piercingly beautiful woman is seated in the throne. She is sailing gracefully into middle age with a sense of utter equipose. She looks at you with an expression of haughtiness and utter confidence.

 

A:EFTP:

A piercingly beautiful woman stands before you. She is sailing gracefully into middle age with a sense of utter equipoise. She smiles as you approach, trying to put you at your ease.

[grasshopper]

Well at least she isn't sat in some strange enveloping throne this time round.

 

Equipose makes her sound a bit horsey too.

[Soul of Wit]

Equipoise = a state of equilibrium? I suppose she has gotten calmer over time.

[grasshopper]

Yeah, I know, but whenever I see equi, i think equine.

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: grasshopper

Yeah, I know, but whenever I see equi, i think equine.

Your instincts are good...

'tis a horse

[grasshopper]

...and I was going to say very chestnut horsey as well, but something held me back...

[Alorael at Large]

The alternate-universe years have blunted Erika's edge a bit. But hopefully they've honed her skill, and maybe this time she can even make it through the endgame of A3 in an alternate ending.

 

—Alorael, who means she can make it through in a way other than not participating. That's boring and rather atypical for her.

[Enraged Slith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

One thing I found interesting about AEFTP is that Erika's character has been gradually made less sharp. Compare:

---

EXILE:EFTP:
<img src="http://minmax.ermarian.net/erika.png">There is a piercingly beautiful woman sitting in the
throne. She looks at you with an expression of haughtiness and utter
confidence.

AVERNUM:
A piercingly beautiful woman is seated in the throne. She is sailing gracefully into middle age with a sense of utter equipose. She looks at you with an expression of haughtiness and utter confidence.

<img src="http://minmax.ermarian.net/G251.jpg">A:EFTP:
A piercingly beautiful woman stands before you. She is sailing gracefully into middle age with a sense of utter equipoise. She smiles as you approach, trying to put you at your ease.

Can't wait for Rentar. Rrrrowrr

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Escapism. Sometimes it's nice to stop dealing with real world issues for a bit.

Yes. The issue is that escapism would feel out of place in Jeff's games. For all that he likes to emphasize the 'fantasy' aspect of his games, they usually tend more toward the grim than the escapist. It would be odd for a setting to be full of realistic problems with xenophobia, racism (and its fantastic equivalents), classism, heterosexism, and the like, yet be all sunshine and puppies on issues of sexism and gender. It's not that such a setting is impossible, but without substantial justification it comes off as selectively escapist in a way I find dissonant and strange.

[Necris Omega]

Originally Posted By: daily Grind

The alternate-universe years have blunted Erika's edge a bit. But hopefully they've honed her skill, and maybe this time she can even make it through the endgame of A3 in an alternate ending.

—Alorael, who means she can make it through in a way other than not participating. That's boring and rather atypical for her.

I always thought the absolute best way to make the Original Avernum's fresh for us old timers would be to completely twist the plot around at major intervals just to really throw us off.

Imagine if Avernum: Ruined World suddenly decided the dragons were the ones behind the plagues after everything was said and done. Yeah, new flashy graphics and game mechanics are all fine and good, but sucker punching the "I've seen this all before" crowd right in the plot basket would shake things up more than anything.

... not gonna happen, sure, but it's fun to think about.

[Harehunter]

How about 'equitable'? Equity comes to mind as well.

 

I thought of punning around here, but instead I'll give this thread the respect it deserves.

 

I never gave much thought to Jeff's portrayal of gender, just felt comfortable with his treatment of it. Consider the basis for the Exile/Avernum scenarios; people being thrust into an otherwise unsurvivable situation. The only way to survive is to cast off any prejudices regarding race, gender or any other way we divide ourselves, and join together as a united people, where anyone and everyone who has the skill to lead is given the job strictly on the basis of merit. It just felt right to me when meeting Commander Mairwin, or Triad Emeritus Erika Redmark.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

how about Triad Emeritus Linda?

[Harehunter]

Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie

how about Triad Emeritus Linda?

I knew as soon as I hit 'Submit' that her name would pop up. No slight was intended. It should also be noted that not all leaders led from the side of the 'good'. One might remember Anastasia, Meena and, later, Anatolia. They took command as capable as any man; just from the the side of 'not good'.

Even the Vahnatai had an even distribution of leaders with regard to gender.

[Men are from Slars]

That's not actually true. The majority of the Boks were male.

 

3/4 living Boks: Prossis; not Glantris, Elohi, or Gaddika

 

4/5 gender-identifiable crystal souls or undead Boks: Elika; not Dahris, Delrin, Korhis, Vyvnas (others: Roda, Liedra, Lorta, Wilvron, Eos, Jekknol, Caffren)

 

The Vahnatai really followed a similar pattern to the humans: government leaders mostly male, wizards evenly mixed with the most powerful one female.

[Erika Maroonmark]

There are also a lot of more minor characters who are women in "traditionally male roles": just off the top of my head, in AEftP there's Acacia, Elspeth, Captain Rosie*, Jonnhalyn, Ethridge, Anastasia the armorer, Jasmine the armorer…actually, there are quite a few female armorers now that I think about it…some other guard captains as well, plus people like Mayor Evelyn and Vicky in government. Also, I think there are a couple of female slith leaders, but I never could remember those sliths' names for some reason. ^_~

 

Anyway, my point is that it could have been the case that anywhere you look in this game, you see a totally male-dominated world. But it's not. Among the townspeople you interact with, there are less "physical" jobs where I think you see even more of a balance: in addition to the mages, there's the innkeepers and rations-sellers. And then there are people like Gypsy: "oh, yeah, I travel around playing music. Sometimes for dragons." Pretty awesome.

 

Also, is it just me or do the dragons switch genders semi-randomly? In Exile, they seemed to be all male, while in AEftP, they were all female except for Motrax and Khoth (which I found surprising, as Pyrog was the one besides Motrax that I considered most likely to be male). I think in some other games, there have been references to some dragon or other as both "he" and "she", though Athron was retconned to definitely being female pretty early on if I remember correctly.

 

*Although I could have sworn that in Exile, Captain Rosie was described as being a guy, perhaps implying that Rosie was his surname? There are a couple of characters who I think were gender-switched between the two games, including a traveller in the Almaria inn who is now described as a "woman with a mustache" (I think his name was originally Monty or something?).

 

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

One thing I found interesting about AEFTP is that Erika's character has been gradually made less sharp. Compare:

 

---

 

EXILE:EFTP:

There is a piercingly beautiful woman sitting in the

throne. She looks at you with an expression of haughtiness and utter

confidence.

 

AVERNUM:

A piercingly beautiful woman is seated in the throne. She is sailing gracefully into middle age with a sense of utter equipose. She looks at you with an expression of haughtiness and utter confidence.

 

A:EFTP:

A piercingly beautiful woman stands before you. She is sailing gracefully into middle age with a sense of utter equipoise. She smiles as you approach, trying to put you at your ease.

 

Earlier today, I was looking through a bunch of screenshots that I took while playing Exile – didn't find what I was looking for, but I had taken a screenshot of the dialogue box that pops up when you meet Erika outside her tower, which describes her as a "statuesque young woman" – which I took to mean that she was magically slowing down her aging process or making herself look younger than she actually was (and I think something along these lines may have been stated outright in another game…especially since Patrick is clearly pretty dang old). So I found the middle-aged bit rather weird, as I'd always thought of her as one of those older-than-they-look Aes Sedai-style mages.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Erika Maroonmark

Also, is it just me or do the dragons switch genders semi-randomly? In Exile, they seemed to be all male, while in AEftP, they were all female except for Motrax and Khoth (which I found surprising, as Pyrog was the one besides Motrax that I considered most likely to be male). I think in some other games, there have been references to some dragon or other as both "he" and "she", though Athron was retconned to definitely being female pretty early on if I remember correctly.

It's not just you. All the dragons are male in Exile I, but Athron and Sulfras are fairly consistently referred to as female in games after Exile I. There was a half-serious fan theory that dragons were able to change sex, like tropical fish or the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, but I guess they were now officially female all along.

[Dintiradan]

So is Pyrog female in the new Avernum games? I recall Pyrog being male in A1 (and referred to as male in A2 and A3), but it's been a while.

[Erika Maroonmark]

I'm pretty sure that, at the very least, the first reference to Pyrog that I saw was as "she". I *think* it was consistent, but I'm second-guessing it now.

[Men are from Slars]

Lilith is, quite atypically, wrong. Here we go:

 

          Motrax    Pyrog   Sulfras  Athron    Khoth

  Exile 1    m        m        m        m        f

  Exile 2    m        m        f       m/f       m

  Exile 3    m        m        f        f        m      

      BoE    -        -        f        f        m      

Avernum 1    m        m       m/f       f        m

Avernum 2    m        f        f        f        m

Avernum 3    m        m        f        f        m

Avernum 4    m        -        -        f        m

Avernum 5    -        -        -        f        -

Avernum 6    -        -        -        f        -

   A:EFTP    m        f        f        f        m

 

"m/f" indicates that both pronouns are used (sometimes by the same speaker!). Also, E/A1 sometimes refer to Pyrog as "it" and BoE/BoA sometimes refer to Khoth as "it" -- just oddities I assume.

 

Basically, it looks like Jeff decided to switch genders of Sulfras, Athron, and Khoth after Exile 1 but goofed some Exile 2 references, then goofed again in converting Exile 1 to Avernum 1, and overcompensated while converting to Avernum 2. Previous we could consider the E/A3 genders to be canon, but now Jeff has switched Pyrog's gender, and it must be intentional as neither E1 nor A1 used any feminine pronouns for Pyrog.

[Lilith]

khoth was female in exile 1? really? huh. i vaguely recalled a couple of slipups with Athron in exile 2 but not that

[Alorael at Large]

Wow. Motrax is the only one who's been stable? I didn't really Khoth was female in E1, and didn't notice Pyrog switched posthumously in A2. But now that he/she's female in AEftP...

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure Jeff is messing with his players deliberately. He couldn't get things wrong this often by accident while working from old scripts.

[grasshopper]

Originally Posted By: Othar Trygvassen: Gentleman

Quote:

Escapism. Sometimes it's nice to stop dealing with real world issues for a bit.

Yes. The issue is that escapism would feel out of place in Jeff's games.

Unless you are about to be shipped out to a warzone and are playing a military simulator, and you know that if you frequently die in the game, you could very well die in real life, all games are escapist.

Really don't believe me? Go in to your bedroom, raise your arms and summon an eyebeast above your bed.

[grasshopper]

There was also the history teacher who got all of his students to play Civilization for homework. Most complained. Games linked too closely to the drudgery of real life are not fun, no matter how many "issues" they deal with in game.

 

Or, another example, I had to read neither Brave New World nor 1984 at school, enjoyed them when I read them, but didn't feel quite the same way about the great reads we were forced to trudge through.

 

Anything you choose to do in your free time that is completely tangental to the needs of your life is escapist.

[Soul of Wit]

Of dragon gender musings...

 

Aren't we dealing with perception here? Many of the dragon descriptions come from the viewpoint of a PC or NPC. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be taking the time to eyeball the genitals of something that scary. Even if the descriptions came from a omniscient narrator (read: Jeff,) that could represent the folklore of the universe in which the game takes place.

 

In the end, it's still fantasy, and Jeff does have a demonstrable sense of humor. The "messing with us" theory is just as valid as any other.

[Yuna Corne]

It's pretty easy to eyeball it when you're eye level with it and wondering if it, too, shoots flame.

[The Ratt]

While humorous, that was a picture I did not need. Eww.