grasshopper

Thanks for the critique of my defensive comment Dikiyoba. I'm very aware of all the points you raised. I waste not only your time here, but my time too, so I'm now going to post publicly the request I made to you privately a couple of days ago: Hi there Dikiyoba, I was wondering if you could be so kind as to ban me. I really need to learn to stay away from these forums, and I think only a firm banning will do. Regards Grasshopper Omnia in opinione sita: manifesta enim sunt

Ok that's a hell of a lot of words all directed pretty much at me. You'll have to excuse me for now spending the next while defending myself a little, rather than continue the conversation, which thanks to the theif and SoT's comment has become quite a bit more interesting than it has been in a while. So here we go... Thin Gypsy Thief That’s a lovely long personal reply there, thin gypsy thief. I really can’t comment too much on the intricacies of the politics of “Atlas Shrugged”, as the bad prose and slow pace where nothing much ever happened meant I was nodding off by the time the –isms really started to kick in. My choice of quote might cause you to chuckle, but that would of course be missing the point. Picking one nit is silly, to pick a thousand means you have an infestation. Although there’s a hell of a lot of information in your carefully crafted 800 word comment, which I wish I could go through point by point, as I agree with an awful lot of it. I’d also like to compliment you on the number of books you have in your room! You are quite right. There’s a good chance I do know the titles of some of them, it’s quite possible I’ve read a few of them and maybe even possess one or two of them myself. Imagine that! It’s nice of you to try and steer the conversation into new waters. I’m not sure that environmentalism existed before Silent Spring, though I expect that you are more of an expert on inter-war environmentalism than I. What topics did I mean by isms? A careful reading of earlier posts shows that the topics mentioned were things like racism, sexism, heterosexism and gender. Gender of course doesn’t end in ism, but I’m too stupid to think of a matching ending, maybe one of your books has the answer to that. I saw him die, said the fly? Not quite, but I did scratch my head at why you went to the trouble to weave such a sardonic undertone in to an otherwise top quality comment. SoT I am humbled by anyone who has actually managed to finish this book, and thanks for an informative comment. The language is so awful, I wonder why the hell she didn’t write it in Russian, then get it translated by someone more competent in English. It’s hard to make a good story if the –ism is your primary goal. Orwell drove himself to an early grave writing 1984, and it’s easy to see why. Guys like these are the best of the best, and the rest of us can only hope to chatter in their shadows. And guy with gentleman in his name. I started off arguing nothing, merely pointing out that all stories are escapist to some degree, which you disagreed with initially. You’re doing a good job of dog-piling me after thief’s comment. I commend you for your bravery. I’m also impressed that you know so much about Ayn Rand. In fact, I think you know more than me. After all I’ve only read the first hundred pages before I gave up: too many pebbles in my mental shoes, and all I could tell is that it is a failed delivery vehicle for some –ism or other. What that ism is, you, Thief & SoT know much better than me. Looking through my previous responses, it’s seems that I didn’t make it quite clear enough that I was completely unwilling to discuss –isms from the word go. I have not built any straw men, only answering your calls with all the politeness I could muster to discuss sexism, racism, gender, heterosexism and some other stuff. And to the three of you, I must apologize, I reckon there's close to 2000 words there all directed at me, I've had to focus on the negative, because that is harmful, there was so much positive there too, but I simply don't have the time to focus on it!

My fav is an old one: LINGUISTICS PRIZE: Juan Manuel Toro, Josep B. Trobalon and Núria Sebastián-Gallés, of Universitat de Barcelona, for showing that rats sometimes cannot tell the difference between a person speaking Japanese backwards and a person speaking Dutch backwards.

It's not the train wheels by themselves in isolation that make the sound, but a mixture of the clicking of the bogies as they and the wheels go over the breaks in the rails. It's a small point, but if you know in your head that if the rails had no breaks, there would be no clack clack clack sound, then the wheel allusion fails. If that doesn't work try the dialogue where a guy decides to quit his job: Quote: “Kellogg, is there nothing I can offer you?” she asked. “Nothing, Miss Taggart. Nothing on earth.” He turned to go. For the first time in her life, she felt helpless and beaten. Conclusion: the main protagonist of the story has had such an easy life that I can't relate to her. This book is purely a vehicle to deliver -isms. It works for some, for many in fact, but I can't get to the end, because the focus is on the -isms, not on making a ripping yarn, and that is a shame.

Quote: And even if a particular creator didn't intend to tackle any -isms, some of the creator's audience will find the accidental -isms that slip in there. Yes of course, that's why everyone hates Tintin these days. Quote: No one (except you) is saying that they expect that, though. Um, not quite. I don't expect it in the least: Quote: Is that the one where you thump thahds? Yeah ok, i'll take it. Because... Quote: almost all -isms when tackled in games are so badly implemented as to be laughable and immersion breaking. Because... Quote: You have to be an exceptionally gifted writer to see clearly through an ism-debate and then be able to deliver a real quality consumable product to the masses. This difficulty is amplified for computer games, where not only do you have to write, but also program the gameplay/graphics etc. That's a hell of a lot of balls to juggle; and that is why games that try to deal with -isms tend to struggle... and I clarified: Quote: ...at least from my point of view. And that Tolkien quote that Slarty found illustrates further: Quote: Children are capable, of course, of literary belief, when the story-maker's art is good enough to produce it. That state of mind has been called “willing suspension of disbelief.” But this does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful “sub-creator.” He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside. If you are obliged, by kindliness or circumstance, to stay, then disbelief must be suspended (or stifled), otherwise listening and looking would become intolerable. But this suspension of disbelief is a substitute for the genuine thing, a subterfuge we use when condescending to games or make-believe, or when trying (more or less willingly) to find what virtue we can in the work of an art that has for us failed. If you don't find you have to suspend your disbelief to enjoy a certain arty product, then that's fine; but someone else might find they have to; and it's almost futile arguing about the whys and wherefores between those who have to suspend that sense and those that don't. I knew that from the start, which is one of the reasons I delicately said: Quote: I didn't want to tackle (it) head on (as)... a full rebuttal would mean disparaging games I have a soft spot for. But after a lot of prodding, I have, and now everyone's unhappy. As a final example, I recently tried to read an -ism filled book, "Atlas Shrugged", but threw it to the floor after a hundred pages because bad writing such as this: Quote: Behind sheets of glass, rows of girls sat at typewriters, the clicking of their keys like the sound of speeding train wheels. Some won't be able to see quite what's wrong with this similie, but if you're one of the ones that can, it irritates. So an -ism orientated novel is unreadable for me because the focus is on the -ism and not on the words, and actually from reading reviews, it was an -ism I was interested in learning more about. I don't expect anything. Let these games and books and films be made that push the -ism boundary in their own way, but you can't expect everyone to be immersed in it, because in making a work that conciously deals with 'isms rather than subconciously (like Tintin), it's a hell of a lot of balls to juggle. And coming back to the beginning, Quote: To reiterate my original point, which you seem to have ignored: Quote: It would be odd for a setting to be full of realistic problems with xenophobia, racism (and its fantastic equivalents), classism, heterosexism, and the like, yet be all sunshine and puppies on issues of sexism and gender. and then... Quote: The fact that you aren't interested in an aspect of a game, and choose to ignore it, does not mean it doesn't exist, or that it is unimportant to others. You want to talk "-isms?" No, I never did. As it's a bloody quagmire of a topic. Now as the Arabs say, khalas!

Originally Posted By: Nicothodes But my problem with saying that they're best left untouched by the "best of the best" is that that makes it taboo to discuss them, The problem with -isms is that usually they are emotionally charged to the extent that the bounds of discourse on what aspects of them may or may not be discussed are rather tight. A couple of issues that spring to mind I wouldn't discuss here, because it would break the CoC. I don't think I'd write about them either on my own blog, as sometimes it can be expensive to have your moderate but complex opinions misconstrued by a careless reader. You talk about them all you want, just don't be expecting any groundbreaking spiderweb games that will smite these evil -isms in to the dust with one fell triumphant swishy swoosh.

Dual boot. No matter what the guys at ubuntuforums say, you still need a proper operating system if you're going to work with other people at some point. And don't even bother playing games through wine. You can do it, sure; but would you rather play the game on your evening off, or play with the wine settings all night? Windows, including win7 is terrible, but linux is no rose garden either.

The problem with -isms is that usually they are emotionally charged to the extent that the bounds of discourse on what aspects of them may or may not be discussed are rather tight. This is especially true for some of the -isms raised by our good friend: racism, sexism, heterosexism etc. You have to be an exceptionally gifted writer to see clearly through an ism-debate and then be able to deliver a real quality consumable product to the masses. This difficulty is amplified for computer games, where not only do you have to write, but also program the gameplay/graphics etc. That's a hell of a lot of balls to juggle; and that is why games that try to deal with -isms tend to struggle, at least from my point of view. Europa Universalis has slaves as a tradable commodity, included for historical accuracy, and the slaves all come from Africa. They bend over backwards to apologize for their inclusion in the game, and even then, it is the only commodity that does not have an icon that depicts what is being bought and sold, only one that infers. Whenever any issue becomes ism-ized, it's going to be hard to approach by all but the best of the best without raising an outcry from somewhere.

Good, good. The more we talk, the more we come round to a common point of view. Games are by definition escapist. They take you to another world, that is of course grounded in some of the more fun realities of our own. Um. If you play a game in English when you've been immersed in Swahili for a long period of time, and especially if you are not a navtive Swahil yourself, that gaming experience will be escapist. If your mom rings you to talk about the price of spuds or whether she should sends you more knickers, that conversation my be enjoyable but is grounded in reality. If she however calls to you to discuss whether Snarf will ever make it off Thundera, that is less grounded in reality. My initial point was just to check that you did not really believe that games were as real as real life. Following points about how real life -isms should or should not intrude on a escapist gaming environment, or how well implemented they are in Jeff's games I refused to answer: Quote: 1. A full rebuttal would mean disparaging games I have a soft spot for. ...but if you insist: almost all -isms when tackled in games are so badly implemented as to be laughable and immersion breaking. Quote: I'll make this relatively simple and straightforward I suppose this could be a veiled insult, but I'm glad you did try to make it simple and straightforward, as that is always preferable to convoluted and caught up in various ivory tower-isms.

Originally Posted By: Master1 Originally Posted By: grasshopper Take her to CERN, nice skiing in the winter and good cycling in the summer... I have firsthand accounts that the more available areas of CERN are rather unpleasant. Just about all of the funding goes into the big fancy stuff that you can't see unless you work there. When my uncle was there for a conference, they all had to huddle around the outlet to charge their laptops whenever the room had power. Did he only go there the once, or was this a recurrent experience? That's an interesting nugget of information for the dinner table if it's the norm these days. Not completely implausible though, planning reports for the LHC were always a bit panicky. Doesn't change my point one jot though. Goodish skiing and nice cycling in the area around. Pays de Gex and Geneva are really really beautiful places to be. Any nice girl with a level of interest in you will be yours if you take her there to wine and dine for a couple of weeks

Any form of daydreaming is escapism; any form of fictional story that came from someone else's daydream, doubly so. And, it's good to see you slowly coming to agree with me: Quote: The issue is that escapism would feel out of place in Jeff's games. Quote: So...you're saying that Jeff's games are fictional, and in the fantasy genre? That's really illuminating. If you're not a college professor and/or spiritual guru already, the world is missing out. Quote: Yes, works of fiction are by definition escapist to some degree, Nah, Jeff's games are completely escapist. I remember going a couple of months without speaking or reading any english then firing up a spiderweb game. Wow, it was like I was somewhere else: a world where everyone spoke my mother tongue. Pure insanity. Maybe I'll agree with you a bit more, if you could be, like a shopkeeper, and you had to play the game for thirty to forty hours just waiting for one group of adventurers to come in and offload a load of junk on you that's going to need a bank loan to buy and you've no idea who you're going to sell it on to. Then the nub of your argument, Quote: It would be odd for a setting to be full of realistic problems with xenophobia, racism (and its fantastic equivalents), classism, heterosexism, and the like, yet be all sunshine and puppies on issues of sexism and gender. I didn't want to tackle head on for two reasons: 1. A full rebuttal would mean disparaging games I have a soft spot for. 2. There are so many 'isms there, it made my brain boggle. I actually had to google the hetero-ism one. Come on! All the guys in Jeff's games walk around so much, and NONE of them ever gets a wedgie? Or a stone in their shoe? Forgets to brush their teeth, so no one will talk to them? Eats a curry and can't join the group the next day? In fact, I will email Jeff about these oversights. If I were to pick up a game in a shop, and on the blurb on the back it said, this game deals with ten different 'isms. I'd put it straight back and plump for an 'ismless one. Geneforge, a game with a fantasy bent that walks you through the varying vantage points of differing 'isms and 'ismizers in today's world. Is that the one where you thump thahds? Yeah ok, i'll take it.

Too be honest, these levers are one of the most unfun things about the game. It'd be really good if he could find another way to hide secrets, other than this early 90s LucasArts adventure game type tedium.

Have a look for a lever or a button in one of the buildings by where the baby turrets were, or baby something bad. Don't think you need that much luck either. I can't remember what it does in geneforge, but I only ever add an extra one or two points.

Originally Posted By: Frozen Feet Insult: "You know, you obviously have brain for it, so I always wonder why you didn't go to poly(technic) since you like to talk about these things so much." Said by: a childhood friend who I've shared a hobby with for ~10 years. Context: this will take a bit of explaining. First of all, the words don't look too bad, but the way she said it in a cold, annoyed voice really made my jaw drop. When she said it, we were having a good time, chatting about whatever came to mind around a campfire. Then the topic shifted to science, and I started talking about CERN and their recent neutrino experiment (and other weird physics stuff), which flew over the heads of... everyone else but us, I guess. Take her to CERN, nice skiing in the winter and good cycling in the summer. Then she'll let you spelunk about neutrinos faster than the speed of light to your heart's content.

There was also the history teacher who got all of his students to play Civilization for homework. Most complained. Games linked too closely to the drudgery of real life are not fun, no matter how many "issues" they deal with in game. Or, another example, I had to read neither Brave New World nor 1984 at school, enjoyed them when I read them, but didn't feel quite the same way about the great reads we were forced to trudge through. Anything you choose to do in your free time that is completely tangental to the needs of your life is escapist.

Originally Posted By: Othar Trygvassen: Gentleman Quote: Escapism. Sometimes it's nice to stop dealing with real world issues for a bit. Yes. The issue is that escapism would feel out of place in Jeff's games. Unless you are about to be shipped out to a warzone and are playing a military simulator, and you know that if you frequently die in the game, you could very well die in real life, all games are escapist. Really don't believe me? Go in to your bedroom, raise your arms and summon an eyebeast above your bed.

...and I was going to say very chestnut horsey as well, but something held me back...

All the geneforges need to be remade to the same engine before any kind of decent comparison can be made. I played through geneforge one again a while ago, and while the story is still one of the best, some of the interactions with the serviles were a little, um, twee.

Yeah, I know, but whenever I see equi, i think equine.

Well at least she isn't sat in some strange enveloping throne this time round. Equipose makes her sound a bit horsey too.

There was a really good lunar eclipse about a month ago in europe. Don't know if you could see it yankside

Ok so it seems that even social animals name each other, with dolphins calling each other stinky fin, and ugly human nose and birds tweeting, oi red wing get over here, your little beak is squatting on my eggs.

There must have been some point back in time, before everybody was called either John or Barrack, that nobody had their own individual identifier: a name. When did they come about, and how? Or is it possible that monkeys and dolphins and donkeys give each other names too? If there were only two people in the world, would they give each other a name, or would they just rely on calling each other me and you? At what point did someone say, hold it lads, I've got a brainwave, there's far too many me, you, hims and hers here, time for something new?

Seconded, I buy games from them. Good site, and DRM free. Got me playing Little Big Adventure and Masters of Orion again.

Just a quick thanks for the ghostly suggestions now the story is pretty much finished (though still needs a bit of fat cutting). I was originally going to cut all the nethergatey parts from it, but have now kept them in there and added more. So, thanks again.