The coming Avernum rewrites

[Alorael at Large]

That's pretty much a guaranteed no. Spiderweb has moved away from large spell lists, and it seems like all games have gone to smaller party sizes. In any case, reusing the Avernum 6 engine means that the spell list is likely to be very similar to that game's and the party size will be four characters.

 

—Alorael, who would also like all the fun spells back. Party size just doesn't bother him as much. Six was arbitrary, and four is equally arbitrary.

[Xazo-Tak]

Originally Posted By: Skwish-E

Avernum as 3d multiplayer realtime game?... I would never play. Turn-based RPG allows me to use my slow, old-man brain. And I can play offline.

Exactly. That idea was dumb. That's why I said nevermind.

[goblindolf]

I can't really think of a good reason to not bring back some of the old spells, I think one of Avernum's biggest weakness over exile was axing lots of spell for seemingly no reason.

 

They were fun to experiment with and you could usually find a use for most of them. I was especially fond of mind duel.

 

Using the same small spell list over and over is not as fun as having a big selection as you end up just using the same 2-3 every fight due to lack of alternatives.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: goblindolf

I can't really think of a good reason to not bring back some of the old spells, I think one of Avernum's biggest weakness over exile was axing lots of spell for seemingly no reason.

I can think of two:

1. Time (time = money) to code and get new graphics for all the new spells amongst the spell book, and
2. Time to make sure each spell is balanced and not either useless or too egregiously useful

It's doubtful that we'll see a sudden increase in the size of our magical arsenal, especially since Avernum has both priest and mage spells to deal with. However, I fully expect a gradual increase in the amount of spells we can cast.

Of course, the mechanics from the original games will be greatly revamped to fit the new engine, such as the new area of effect spells.

[Micawber]

But we *want* useless spells... We miss the buzz of learning a new spell, and the opportunity to find out by trial and error that it is useless in 99.9% of situations

[Erebus the Black]

And scry monster with it's bestiary (so we can "catch" them all)

[Kyronea]

Originally Posted By: Limerick Oyster

That's pretty much a guaranteed no. Spiderweb has moved away from large spell lists, and it seems like all games have gone to smaller party sizes. In any case, reusing the Avernum 6 engine means that the spell list is likely to be very similar to that game's and the party size will be four characters.

—Alorael, who would also like all the fun spells back. Party size just doesn't bother him as much. Six was arbitrary, and four is equally arbitrary.

Drat. Mostly what I was wanting back would be things like antimagic fields, mind duel, scry monster, other such stuff that really helped things feel a bit more alive.

[The Mystic]

The spells I really miss are Wound, Manna, Shockwave, the two Barrier spells, and Divine Thud. Location and Scry Monster were useful, too.

[Erebus the Black]

isn't wound == smite?

[Kyronea]

Also, please let us target invisible monsters again. Not being able to do so makes my mage/priests cry.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

isn't wound == smite?

Smite is cold based damage, while wound was able to bypass magic resistance of monsters that were normally immune to magic based attacks.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Originally Posted By: Erasmus

isn't wound == smite?

Smite is cold based damage, while wound was able to bypass magic resistance of monsters that were normally immune to magic based attacks.

I thought Smite did that. It's always been my fallback spell when the other spells don't work.

[Slawbug]

Exile had one spell called Wound and one spell call Smite. Smite did utterly pitiful amounts of cold-based damage to an increasing number of individual targets. Wound did something like 2d7 of typeless damage to a single target.

[Tyranicus]

I think what Erasmus is saying, and certainly what I am saying, is that Smite is more or less the Avernum equivalent to Wound. It does have an increasing number of targets like the Exile version of Smite, but it seems to do damage to all kinds of monsters like Wound. It's my standard damage spell for fighting demons until I get Repel Spirit 3.

[Dikiyoba]

In A1-3, Smite does cold damage. It's basically ice lances, but for your priests.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Slawbug]

I'm not really sure what you're saying, Tyro. In Avernum, Smite does single target cold damage. It's like Ice Bolt from Exile. It is nothing at all like Wound, which does fixed damage (never increases, unlike other damage spells) and is essentially typeless.

 

Also, Erasmus did not say Smite was used similarly to Wound, he said ==. That's a pretty specific operator.

[Trenton.]

Smite does barly any damage in exile. While the adding number of targets was nice, the highest I ever got from it was 11 points of damage.

[Alorael at Large]

Right. In Exile, if I remember correctly, priests don't really have a good source of damage until they get Flamestrike, encouraging them to take up weapons and armor. The exception is Wound, which does very little damage but does it reliably regardless of the target's resistance to anything.

 

In Avernum, Smite is a fine single-target ice damage spell. It functions like Wound in that it's the damage spell priests are going to cast for the beginning of the game, but it's mechanically completely different.

 

—Alorael, who relied much less on mage-priests in Exile. The system rewarded doubling up on mage and priest skills a bit less, prevented mages from wearing armor a bit more, and he spent even less thought on making optimal parties.

[Slawbug]

The damage spell priests are going to cast for the beginning of the game is Bless. Wound's damage is piddly compared to a moderately buffed melee warrior. That is VERY different from the later Avernums, in which Smite can often equal and sometimes beat the damage output of a pure warrior.

 

OTOH, Wound was especially useful when facing enemies with across-the-board resistances. Smite is typically useless in those situations.

[Tyranicus]

I never paid attention to what kind of damage Smite does in Avernum, to be honest. I just know that it damages most everything including things that Ice Lances don't hurt.

[Alorael at Large]

For a hard fight, yes. But when you have your fighters blessed to the point that they can mow down goblins and nephilim in a single hit and you really just want to pick off enemies a little faster, Wound works just fine.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't usually need to stack blessing upon blessing. For Ornotha Ziggurat, yes. For hunting unicorns for Mayor Arbuckle, no.

[Slawbug]

Except that spell points are not infinite. Regeneration of spell points is low. If your fighters are mowing down goblins and unicorns in one hit (and presumably taking no damage back), why waste the 2 SP to cast Wound when you could just have the fighters kill them for free?

[Alorael at Large]

You can optimize in-game resources. I sometimes choose to optimize the out-of-game resource of time. I'd rather just slaughter goblins faster when I'm not dealing with a dungeon, or if I'm already leaving with a full haul of loot, or for many other reasons.

 

Spell points aren't infinite in Avernum either, and using warriors to kill enemies is often most efficient except for time there as well. Yet I still find myself frying enemies en masse.

 

—Alorael, who can think of another important reason in Exile: experience allocation. The hefty bonus to the killing blow requires that you carefully manage priests so that they don't fall too far behind the rest of the party. Actually, everyone needs to be managed, but priests fall behind most often.

[Enraged Slith]

http://www.avernum.com/avernum/shots.html

 

Not sure how old these screen shots are, but it looks like outdoors is back in. I am ecstatic.

[Slawbug]

Whoa, those screenshots look great. Avadon-style ability trees make me very happy -- replaying Avernum with Geneforge-style skills just wouldn't cut it. Also, look at that map in the last screenshot -- beautiful.

[Randomizer]

Oh, shiny new character graphics. Elevations are still there with separate indoor areas for towns and dungeons.

 

Looks like Phil Foglio type illustrations for the ability/stat explanations.

 

I can't tell if the skill tree will work. I hate to lose all those spells from the First Trilogy.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

I hate to lose all those spells from the First Trilogy.

Now you know how we felt when Avernum 2 came out.

That said, skill trees could plausibly be combined with lists of spells you know or don't know, and having more passive effects in the skill trees.

[Randomizer]

Looking at the skill tree, there are 3 of them: combat is shown, magic/misc., and one for traits are hidden. There is also a separate screen for spells/abilities so maybe you get those without skill points.

[Spidweb]

Spells and Battle Discs. work like before. The former is bought from trainers. The latter is gained by training base weapon skills.

 

- Jeff Vogel

 

PS And yes, badass Level 3 versions of the spells are hidden everywhere, just like in original Avernum.

[Kyronea]

And The Fandom Rejoiced.

 

I see nothing here that makes me think this remake won't be awesome.

[Lauren CW]

I have to admit. I have been hitting the refresh button for like 2 weeks now hoping to see some screenshots. And when I saw the first one, my heart stuck in my chest. I was so afraid, so horribly afraid, that the outdoors was done away with. But when I saw the picture of the party leaving Fort Avernum, all was right with the world. THANKYOU, from the BOTTOM OF MY HEART.

[Kennedy]

Will there be a level cap, And if there is what will it be set at? As I recall the first two had a cap at 40 or 50 where as in part 3 your level was unlimited. Never did hit the cap in the last two games though.

 

Also will there be an option to have a 5th NPC character join your party like in some of the Blades of Avernum games or Nethergate?

[Tyranicus]

It's interesting that the map shows the areas east of Bargha and west of Fort Draco. In the map included with the original game, those areas are blank.

[nikki.]

Those screenshots look amazing. <3

 

Other things I like:

 

- The skill tree mixed with regular spells/abilities.

- LEVEL 3 AWESOMENESS. <3

- The fact that it's only gonna cost $20 if you didn't already buy Ex/Av 1, or $10 if you did.

- Redone creature/character rendering - hopefully, to make the A6 monsters look more like A1 ones.

- This:

 

Quote:

The Traits system has been massively reworked. Instead of picking two traits at the beginning of the game, you can select one new beneficial trait every two levels. A lot of these traits give simple bonuses, while others (like Backstab and Swordmage) can dramatically change the way you play the game.

 

- And this:

 

Quote:

[There's a] new, large town with a pile of quests. New hidden dungeons. New hidden characters with lots of backstory and things you can do for them. A completely new starter dungeon/tutorial.

 

<3

 

Edit: Also also: Reputation!

 

(quotes, and more, at http://www.avernum.com/avernum/avernumFAQ.html)

 

Edit: I just hope there are plenty of level-ups to effectively get all abilities/skills. It was nice in Avadon, having to pick and choose and making different characters each time due to that, but I wanna be greedy and not have to make choices.

[Skeledoid]

The red head archer art looks hot

 

Chiming in a lil bit here:

 

I am extremely happy for the Avernum remake. Simply can't dig into the graphic and overworld navigation mechanic of the earlier Avernum trilogy(based on the demos played).

 

I am probably in the minority when I say that the no-walking animation bothered me. Took me awhile to get over it while blasting through AV 5 demo.

 

Would be happy to 'plonk' in $20 for this.

[Slawbug]

"all creature and character graphics are being re-rendered."

 

Whoa.

[Cattus002]

Have the normal skills been scrapped, like special skills you unlock with the right stats and stuff like luck, mage spells, priest spells and tool use. As all I see are the base ones like strength, endurance, intelligence, dexterity like avadon had.

 

The trait system seems interesting although I have always thought of traits as a strong one off choice you make to change the game experience, which adds replayability as next time around you can choose a different trait.

[Clocknova]

We love you, Jeff. I hope you keep rewriting your old games for as long as you continue to write new ones. It's such a wonderful thing to be able to replay newer, better versions the old adventures every few years. Some people may wonder why you spend so many resources rehashing old stuff, but not I, and probably not anyone else here. I wish more game companies would revisit their old classics and update them for modern operating systems and machines.

[Alorael at Large]

From the traits we can see, I think the system probably replaces the old skills with new traits. From the screenshot, the bottom four combat skills in the tree are melee, pole, bows, and throwing. I'm sure some other ones are familiar faces like dual wielding, defense, hardiness, quick strike, quick action, and all our other old friends. They're a tree now, but that's not necessarily so different.

 

The one thing that seems interesting is that a level 1 character has at least five skill points. If it remains 5 per level, the Spiderweb standard before Avadon, that's 200 over 40 levels (the cap of A1). 14 skills on each of the three tabs would give us 42 skills to play with for an average of just under 5 points per skill. That like more chances to make choices than Avadon! I'm hopeful that the tree will be more forgiving; I don't want to have to put equal points in melee and pole in order to be any good at anything further up the tree.

 

Of course, it also might be true that there are fewer points per level, and it also seems quite possible that those "traits" are things you pick at the beginning of the game, like the current Avernum games, and never change. We'll see.

 

—Alorael, who still thinks this looks like a prettier, polished engine in which to have a game that has the same world with more strategic and tactical decisions. Would pre-order.

[madrigan]

The new Avernum 1 looks freaking awesome. If I were not at work I would be jumping around the room in fanboy glee. As I have said on these forums a dozen times, I don't like the indoors/outdoors thing. But I admit, the outdoors graphics look great. With the improved graphics and interface it might not be as annoying. Maybe it won't be annoying at all!

 

It looks like the character improvement system will be fun. And as a bad player and non-min/maxer, I am reassured by Jeff's statement that he will make it as difficult as possible to build a really terrible party.

 

I am not clear on the discount Jeff mentioned. Is the discount for anyone who bought any Avernum game, or just people who bought the original Avernum 1?

 

Yes, I realize the game was not called Avernum 1, and that World War I was not called World War I. And so on.

[Triumph]

WOW.

 

Just...

 

WOW!!!

 

This looks SO amazingly cool. I look forward to Q4.

 

I've only gotten to play the demos of A1 / A2, so I'm definitely excited about experiencing the full world of early Avernum.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: summon tentacles with pentacles

Of course, it also might be true that there are fewer points per level, and it also seems quite possible that those "traits" are things you pick at the beginning of the game, like the current Avernum games, and never change.

Not possible -- Nikki's quote above, about traits, came directly off the Avernum website.

[goblindolf]

The website says 2 skill points every level and 1 trait point every 2 levels.

 

Quote:

The Traits system has been massively reworked. Instead of picking two traits at the beginning of the game, you can select one new beneficial trait every two levels

[Slawbug]

Also, given that there are no classes, this makes sense: there might be enough skill points to max out the melee combat tree and pick up a few skills elsewhere, but you can't expect to max out everything. Thus, this will be different from "Why can't I max out all of Shima's skills?"

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Also, given that there are no classes, this makes sense: there might be enough skill points to max out the melee combat tree and pick up a few skills elsewhere, but you can't expect to max out everything. Thus, this will be different from "Why can't I max out all of Shima's skills?"

Yeah, this is what I meant when I said I wanted to be able to have everything - I meant that I wanted my mages to have all magey-type skills (all the spells, etc), and my fighters to have all the fightery-type skills.

[goblindolf]

Originally Posted By: Spidweb

PS And yes, badass Level 3 versions of the spells are hidden everywhere, just like in original Avernum.

IS there any news on if any of the old exile spells are returning and if alchemy poison is coming back?

[Alorael at Large]

There's essentially no chance of getting Exile spells back. Alchemy seems plausible, since it's been a fun part of Exile/Avernum for both iterations. I'd expect poison to be in the combat trees, but it might not be part of alchemy.

 

Oh, and I missed Nikki's post entirely. That makes sense.

 

—Alorael, who has to say he's excited to have leveling be flatter. In Avernum, the benefits you get for leveling generally decrease over the course of the game, because skill points per level are static and costs for the things you put most of them in go up. Here, you'll get steadier boosts. Unless, of course, you have to sink huge numbers of skill points into those base skills you don't want to work your way up the ladder. But on the bright side, it also looks likely that there will be more skills for casters than a couple of very expensive skills that are absolutely necessary.

[Clocknova]

I love that the new portraits are essentially just new versions of the classic drawings, apparently also flipped vertically. They look great while retaining the flavor of the originals. Nicely done.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

I'm so excited! The FAQ and screenshots so far look absolutely perfect, keeping the the best of the old games and adding the best of the new. I really have the feeling this is going to work out very well. It all seems to fit together. And release before the end of 2011? w00t!

I wonder, though, about the retail price. 20$ doesnt't seem very high. It's very, very reasonable in my opinion. But 10$ for owners of previous Avernum games? I'm not sure what to think of that.

[Slawbug]

Jeff has always given a discount on remakes, if you purchased the predecessor game. It's never been a 50% discount, though. I suspect the increase has to do with the fact that there will be an iPad version, and it will necessarily sell for less than $20. If the iPad version were $10 and the old customer discount got you a Mac/PC version for $15, well, that wouldn't feel like much of a discount.