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The coming Avernum rewrites


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Wow. There really aren't many custom titles left. I just ran a database query and got these back:

 

Code:
2	The MAN6	Uh oh...7	Keeper of Avadon8	Manifest Destiny24	Nuke and Pave18240	BANNED246	Puck Fin260	Facepalming Hecatombchire17956	BANNED866	in before the apocalypse1681	Ain't nobody told you?1843	Cartographer2708	Lack of Vision17942	BANNED3348	?3422	Interloper4036	!!!4144	A God in Mote's Eye4224	By Committee17955	BANNED5285	Zenmaster5450	Worm17918	Rowen's Mule5968	Chicken God6184	Dead Man Walking6283	Curiouser and Curiouser17922	custom is now unspecial6480	Dollop of Whipped Cream6657	Self-Inflicted Custom Title6691	Deranged Subterfuge and Key Lime Pie6776	Tormented Battle Mage17924	Super!17951	BANNED17928	Chicken God17925	Actaeon17927	lost postcount18131	BANNED18151	BANNED18228	BANNED18247	BANNED
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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
The lack of custom titles over the last few years has more to do with UBB.threads hiccuping frequently over them. In fact I just tried to make a few more, thinking that would indeed be nice for some newer members, and still, none of them stuck. Oh well!
Out of curiosity, what titles were you going to give to people? And who were you giving them to?
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I've never had a custom title and frankly I'm fine with that. Custome titles seem due to those who have given something towards these forums or Spiderweb Software in general. I don't post often enough to give me a better post count, and I've never made a scenario (either BOE or BOA). Some of my posts, I admit, were completely off the wall. Looking back, I consider myself very lucky to not ever have been BANNED (even if one or two times I seemed to deserve it).

 

One thing I hate about my current title is that it says Sorceress...that's a title for a woman. I'm a man and would like to be called a Sorcerer! Obviously this is just a generic title meant for everyone around this postcount, but it just seems a little weird, huh?

 

Post #540 cool

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No, that really does tell us something about our culture. More accurately it tells us something about the history of our culture: that gender differences were significant enough to enter into language, that for a long time men were dominant over women, so that male forms became the default and feminine forms became "marked." The result is that you can have a female sorcerer, but you can't have a male sorceress. I would argue that this is an issue of language and not of personal comfort or discomfort: calling Garzahd a Sorceress would be as inaccurate as calling Michelle Obama the First Husband (an example I use because "husband" and "wife" are BOTH gender-specific, so there is no default form).

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Hi, a new guy lulling about making oldies angry. ^^

 

If there is a rewrite, I'd like to see one thing above all: no TIME that messes up things. I know the time limits and whatnot are pretty lax, but I am a player that wants to enjoy the game in a slow-paced manner. Even when you give me loose leash I will be like "omigod omigod will I have time to explore this region omigod omigod oh noes". And then, when I read the time-limits afterwards I am like "oh good lords what an ass I was."

 

Of course I'd enjoy some good (and hilarious!) linearts for the character screen as usual. I still remember Avernum 2 Potion Making -skill flavour picture. laugh

 

And I want to assassinate stuff with ranged weapons.

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Quote:
No, that really does tell us something about our culture. More accurately it tells us something about the history of our culture: that gender differences were significant enough to enter into language, that for a long time men were dominant over women, so that male forms became the default and feminine forms became "marked." The result is that you can have a female sorcerer, but you can't have a male sorceress. I would argue that this is an issue of language and not of personal comfort or discomfort: calling Garzahd a Sorceress would be as inaccurate as calling Michelle Obama the First Husband (an example I use because "husband" and "wife" are BOTH gender-specific, so there is no default form).


Heaven help Barack Obama if he ever refers to Michelle as the First Wife. laugh

Anyway, you make a good point, but it's not just about language. Nobody I know cares if you dress a little girl in blue, but dress a boy in pink and at the very least you'll get raised eyebrows. Some people will have much stronger reactions. Don't even get me started on the reason for the whole pink/blue thing.

Names. Give a girl a "boy's" name, and it's cute and modern. Give a boy a "girl's" name? Unthinkable. Plenty of girls' names used to be masculine, but are now pretty much taboo for boys (Ashley, Kelly, Beverly, Robin, Hilary, the list goes on and on). Once the name becomes associated with the feminine, few families will inflict it on their boy children.

There's been some pushback against this attitude, but most people seem to just take it for granted.
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I wouldn't read too deeply into the whole name thing, especially seeing as I've noticed a trend towards unisex names nowadays- Sam, Alex, Jack, etc., and names that sound identical- I know a Toni who's female, for instance, so it's definitely changing.

 

And furthermore, despite my nonexistent linguistic credentials, I'd say it's a fairly safe bet to say the names are the hardest part of a language to change, since names tend to be the outward manifestations of deeply held religious and cultural beliefs- just look and how popular Biblical names have remained, and I do know a lot of people that actively try to minimize the Americanization of their names to preserve their cultural heritage. Given these points, I'd say that using names to extrapolate culture is well and good, but the culture you'll wind up describing will end up being several decades, if not centuries, removed from the current one, and naming conventions are frankly a very weak criticism of anything, especially when I can think up like a dozen criticism of current culture that are orders of magnitude more damning than "Our centuries-old language has a mild sexist bent!"

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Originally Posted By: Dantius
...I can think up like a dozen criticism of current culture that are orders of magnitude more damning than "Our centuries-old language has a mild sexist bent!"


Well, sure. So can I, that wasn't the point. And as I said, it's not really about language; it's about the underlying assumption that being considered in any way feminine is a disgraceful thing for a male, while the reverse doesn't hold true (at least in this part of the world, in this century). The usage of names is just an example.
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Originally Posted By: Dantius
names are the hardest part of a language to change, since names tend to be the outward manifestations of deeply held religious and cultural beliefs

Hmm. Interesting question (and we can probably ignore the question of whether names are actually part of language, or just tied to it).

First question -- what do you mean by "change"? Do you mean names undergoing change in their forms (say, the development of Vido into Guido, Guillaume and William), in their connotations (Ashley moving from masculine to feminine connotations), or in their popularity and general use?

On the one hand, I agree that there is probably some impetus to retain culturally significant names. It is not a coincidence that variants of Mary and Peter are consistently popular in countries with a significant Christian heritage.

Here's the thing. All that's required to achieve one permanent instance of name change is for someone to give their kids a crazy new name. (If you think this doesn't happen, let me introduce you to my attendance records.) Other people don't have a choice about whether or not to call this person the name. The name will eventually seem less weird and, especially if I encounter 1 or 2 more people with that name at some point, I'll stop noticing it. Or, even if the name is totally unique, if the child becomes famous, boom, instant name clones. Thus, name changes can be completely arbitrary. Changing more generic elements of language will only stick if the new forms are either significantly easier to process, significantly more widespread, or some combination of the two. Consider attempts at language reform in English (the phonetic spelling attempts of the late 1800's, for example) that failed despite being logical and adopted by thousands -- they still didn't make the cut. But for names it really just takes one person with a crazy idea.
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Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
Originally Posted By: Dantius
names are the hardest part of a language to change, since names tend to be the outward manifestations of deeply held religious and cultural beliefs

Hmm. Interesting question (and we can probably ignore the question of whether names are actually part of language, or just tied to it).

Names have meanings if you go back far enough. Most of them aren't remembers by modern day users but they usually do have some meaning in the original language like Arthur is derived from the word for bear.

There are some names that were artificially created so they wouldn't have any meaning. Corporations do it all the time so they can have a unique word that doesn't mean anything in any major language and won't offend someone unintentionally, and can't be taken by a rival company. This allows them to control the usage or it can pass into public domain like Xerox meaning to copy something.
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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES
(and we can probably ignore the question of whether names are actually part of language, or just tied to it).

Names have meanings if you go back far enough.
Having meaning, whether etymologically or in the present day, is not the same thing as being in the lexicon.
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Originally Posted By: Dantius
...especially when I can think up like a dozen criticism of current culture that are orders of magnitude more damning than "Our centuries-old language has a mild sexist bent!"


That is not necessarily as accurate as you may think it is. There has been research on linguistic relativity that have shown that language does have an effect on cognition. After all, as language is one of our primary tools in describing the world, if we do not have a word for something, it is harder to grasp. This goes from the obvious, like the Mesopotamians not talking about automobiles, to the extreme, such as the lingual control exerted by the state in Orwell's 1984.

So, if we have a sexist language, that becomes a serious, usually unconscious, barrier to gender equality. That's the reason why feminist movements advocated change in the language, such as the classic "chairman" to "chairperson."
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Harehunter messing up my name...No one before misspelled it. so i changed it, and ask everyone to call me by my real name, trenton, while still going with my same image so people will know its me. So i picked -TRENTON UCHIHA- and then instead of being for the shapers i decided to go with my signature -,REBEL SERVILE-

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Originally Posted By: Slartucker
All that's required to achieve one permanent instance of name change is for someone to give their kids a crazy new name. (If you think this doesn't happen, let me introduce you to my attendance records.)

Just remember, the cost of creating a crazy new name is that your kid will hate you forever.

Dikiyoba.
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Originally Posted By: Goldenking
Originally Posted By: Dantius
...especially when I can think up like a dozen criticism of current culture that are orders of magnitude more damning than "Our centuries-old language has a mild sexist bent!"


That is not necessarily as accurate as you may think it is. There has been research on linguistic relativity that have shown that language does have an effect on cognition. After all, as language is one of our primary tools in describing the world, if we do not have a word for something, it is harder to grasp. This goes from the obvious, like the Mesopotamians not talking about automobiles, to the extreme, such as the lingual control exerted by the state in Orwell's 1984.

So, if we have a sexist language, that becomes a serious, usually unconscious, barrier to gender equality. That's the reason why feminist movements advocated change in the language, such as the classic "chairman" to "chairperson."


If the novels of Juhani Aho are any indication, Finland wasn't a particularly awesome place to be a woman in the 19th century, any more than the rest of Europe. This is despite the Finnish language having no grammatical gender (even "he" and "she" are the same word), and different words for "homo" and "vir" ("ihminen" and "mies", respectively, whereas in English they're traditionally both "man").

Usually what we do when we don't have a word for something is borrow it or invent it. Look at all the unrelated languages that have words for "car" that look something like "auto". On the flip side, Icelandic is famous for having invented words for certain modern technological things (the word for "computer" is a good example) instead of borrowing them (something to do with a language academy that preferred native Icelandic words). If the ancient Akkadians had ever seen a car, their language would have had a word for one. English didn't have or need a word for "chipmunk" until English-speakers started living on a continent that had chipmunks, so they borrowed/adapted one from a language that did have a word for it.

I think the most damning evidence for the "Whorfian" view of vocabulary is the "revolving door" of euphemisms as words for certain things start to be used as insults. Words like "lame", "crippled", "idiot", and "moron" used to be technical terms, before they were replaced with more "sensitive" terms like "handicapped" and "retarded"…and then those became insults as well. And now we have kids calling each other "LD" and "special" as insults. Replacing words with other words didn't change people's attitudes about the things they represented. Specifically, people's attitudes about disabilities of various kinds are still such that they are quick to use whatever the currently accepted terminology is as an insult.

The kind of studies that have shown the influence of language on thought tend to be ones with findings like "If a language doesn't have words for 'left' and 'right', using compass directions instead (so your left hand could be your "east hand" or your "southwest hand" depending on which way you're facing at the time), speakers of that language are more likely to be aware of their orientation with respect to compass directions than speakers of languages that use 'left' and 'right'." But I'm not sure how convincing I find this, either, since it might not be necessary to be a native speaker of such a language: where I went to college, there were areas called things like "North Campus" and "West Campus", and after a while I often found myself giving people directions and telling them to "go south" or something (as though I were in an adventure game, haha), because I was thinking of everything in relation to "north" and "west". If North Campus had just been called "Freshman Housing Quad" or whatever, I don't think I would have developed the strong sense of "this way is north (because I'm going toward my dorm)" that I did. I got around my high school with ease, of course, but I certainly couldn't have told you which way was north; my sense of direction in that place was completely visual and non-linguistic.
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Originally Posted By: Erika Maroonmark

English didn't have or need a word for "chipmunk" until English-speakers started living on a continent that had chipmunks, so they borrowed/adapted one from a language that did have a word for it.

I thought they were called that because they like to chip wood and they look like monks smile
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Originally Posted By: Erika Maroonmark
Long refutation...


Absolutely. I am not a proponent of the so-called strong Whorf hypothesis, I merely hold that there is an effect on cognition. Unfortunately, language's total effect on mental processes has not yet been quantified, but there has been enough studies done to show that there is an effect.

Even your example of the north campus and the west campus isn't a straight refutation, only a showing that there are multiple causes to human cognitive processes, a fact I doubt anyone will seriously contend.

That said, in a language where divisions between male and female are at a basic level programmed into us by language and culture, it is not hard to envision such language as yet another barrier to full gender equality. While the effects haven't been completely quantified, again, it is not hard to extrapolate from studies and findings like this to an understanding that the way we discuss gender in a day-to-day sense has at least some effect on gender relations overall.

Will lingual reforms end sexism altogether? No, but they are a useful step in the right direction.
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Originally Posted By: Erasmus
Originally Posted By: Erika Maroonmark

English didn't have or need a word for "chipmunk" until English-speakers started living on a continent that had chipmunks, so they borrowed/adapted one from a language that did have a word for it.

I thought they were called that because they like to chip wood and they look like monks smile


??? They dont look at all like crazy wandering people in long robes! nothing of the sort! ???
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Wow, this topic has really flown off the rails…

 

Hum… well I read someone mentioned that the "outdoors" mode thing is still in, which, frankly, was my #1 hope for Avernum: We Remembered the Subtitle This Time. As much as I loved Geneforge for its quirky uniqueness, taking Avernum, a game so massive it really makes you feel as tiny as the 6px high outdoors graphic your PCs get, and squashing it down to something the size of… well, Avernum 4, just really does NOT do it justice.

 

So yeah, I like my Avernum big and epic and vertigo inducing, and having the outdoors mode stay intact is the best way to do that. Sorry new Avernums, but you're just not appropriate for the series I remember and love.

 

I hope, of course, that they take ALL the graphics of Blades of Avernum, and bring them in. Sulfras, the magic gender confused dragon, looking like Average Drake #234523784569q435 is really underwhelming. Also, platemail that looks like chainmail is a letdown as well. In short, while I'm not looking for a Geneforge strength Graphics revamp, there's a lot that could be added simply from future installments of the series that would give the game a major boost.

 

On that note, some of the Avadon graphics wouldn't be a bad thing to bring in either in terms of items, at least.

 

I don't know if it makes sense for the original Avernum to have a multi-ethnic party with Slithzerkai and Nephilim. Honestly, I find humans boring, and will generally opt for an all Slith or Nephil party, plot be damned. Still I can definitely see it causing some continuity issues, at least with the first installment. Wouldn't stop me from building my human-free party if that were the case, however.

 

Like a lot of people, though, there are a lot of favorites from the original, ORIGINAL series I'd love to see come back, not least of all being dual wielding and weapon poison. Axes… I couldn't give two farts about, I'm not an orc nor a lumberjack, but… "utility" spells from the original, like 50 sp Identify and Ritual of Sanctification spells, Scry Monster, and monster map tracking, would all be nice to see make a comeback…

 

Curses! Dispelling! A massive, MASSIVE library of fun area spells to throw down, from walls of fire, to balls of lingering frost, fields of static, to spheres of anti-magic. There was so much Exile offered in terms of spell effects that Avernum just culled, it's a tragedy. Even if you CAN'T bring back all these wonderful spells in spellform, at least give us a wand or two. If nothing else, please bring back Divine Thud.

 

On that note, someone else suggested it would be nice to be able to select individual spell levels along their line, and that's something I can see with some spells, particularly bind foe – I've turned down the final rank in most cases in favor of being able to repeatedly web my enemies into uselessness. You may be able to fend of paralysis, Mr. Wizard, but EAT MY GOO OF JUSTICE!!! … Ah, if Spiderman had the personality of The Tick…

 

A greater diversity of character graphics would be nice too – a bandit was a bandit and by no means mistaken for a soldier. You could instantly tell a Bladesman from a Champion, and Empire Archers were more menacing when they weren't every other archer ever I know graphics aren't free, but it added a lot, and made Exile seem all the more massive… Diversity trumped simplicity, the opposite of Oblivion, and a much better option…Unless we're going WAAAAAY back to the first iteration of Exile, but that's… let's not stress test the Flux Capacitor…

 

A big one I'd love to see come back is item descriptions. What is it with games and not having item descriptions anymore? Okay, maybe you can get away with it if you're some highrolling multibillion dollar developer whose graphics would make Da Vinci fall to his knees and cry, but Spiderweb isn't that developer, and even those who think they are, would be better if they didn't. If I've a legendary, ancient blade of Damascus steel with gold wiring wrapped around a dragon's hide grip, that weapon's going to come out all the more epic if the description is more than, "this is a generic greatsword with a textbook description every greatsword has. +2 to Genericness"

 

I like the concept of "food" I guess – adds a sense of realism to the game. In Exile it was a requirement, and, maybe if it wasn't taking up inventory space ala Avernum, but a basic number as in Exile, it could work again.

 

Junk Shops! I loved the junk shops in Exile that would REGULARLY refresh, often with very shiny, tempting things. Yummy, tasty, powerful things. In Avernum they seem much more static, their stock unchanging. Maybe it's just me…

 

One specific thing… put the Waterfall Warren back to the way it was when it was actual waterfalls… if possible. Those dinky rapids were disappointing, especially after Avernum 2 gave us REAL Waterfalls. I miss the hilarious scream too…

 

But… enough nostalgia banging from me. Yeah, there's a lot from "the days of yore" Avernum would do well to harken back too, but there's been years of development since then. Let's talk NEW stuff!

 

I love it when my melee characters are more than just "walk into badguy" in terms of mechanics We already saw it in the "modern" Avernums, and I personally hope it makes a comeback.

 

The endless bag of endless loot from Avadon was probably one of my favorite things from that game. Playing through Avernum 2 again saw me making umpteen billion trips back and forth between Limoceli's grave and the pawnshop as removing all the fillings from his dead soldiers was really tedious. A bag of infinite goodies would be nice. Barring that, and not everyone would agree, maybe going to a system were most of what's dropped is just raw gold, or stackable vendorables, gems and the like…

 

OH, before I forget, and this is a really, really nitpicky thing, but it's said in Avernum 2, when you get the Amber Key from… I forget where, that there IS no Amber in Avernum… which makes a lot of sense. Yet, Amber is one of the default "gems" to run into. Something to perhaps change, for details sake. Exile had sapphires! … and there I go again back down nostalgia lane.

 

Avadon's sense of character drive isn't something I'm sure would fit within the Avernum framework, but… perhaps fleshing out some of the main characters more could make things more interesting. Solberg proved in the later stages of Avernum (I liked 5 and 6 a lot more than 4) that he was more than just the crazy cat man in the far flung tower, so seeing some of the major players play a greater role does work, at least there.

 

You had this in Avernum 3 in Lorelei, Hawke's Manse, but some sort of independent "home base" would be a potential feature. Whether it's there or in Oblivion, I can't resist the draw of my characters having their own little "house"… mansion, or castle, as it were.

 

I would love it if the inventory system was much better sorted, especially when looting. With so much graphic repetition, being able to sort by name, value, type, or whether or not something is IDed would make looting things so much easier… This is going on the iPad, right? Pillaging – there's an app. for that! Some way to look over everyone's inventory, easily track who has what across all characters… that would be nice as well.

 

I like how "item enhancement" is handled in later Spiderweb games, and REALLY like it when I'm given something epic to "craft" – that Starfire Broadsword is so much more satisfying when I had to kill a dragon, a genie, a small horde of demons, plumb the depths of oblivion, and climb to the top of Mount Rawr to create it. So long as it's suitably epic, I mean. Just, say… BUYING the best gear in the game, like how I landed a pair of Blessed Plate Mails from Misc. shops in my last Avernum game, seems somehow hallow.

 

While the "hotbar" of Geneforge and the like may be small, Avernum could make use of it. Also, quickuse items are nice for making sure me the ultra conservative miser doesn't let things perpetually go to waste.

 

I liked how in Avadon people would address you by name – maybe you could take a page from… ugh, I can't believe I'm saying this, Neverwinter Nights 2 and give your entire party a name. "Random Gaggle of Adventurers" is just about as faceless as it comes, but being referenced as "Hand of the Scimitar" or some other personalized name for your group could work.

 

I'm going to be very, very cautious in this suggestion, because the later games really overdo this to an extent I really hate, but some more unique "boss" battles might work in the Avernum setting. No, no, NO I do NOT want to have to hop on one foot and honk my nose while hunting for some ridiculous "shut off the invulnerability" switch for Sss-thss, but giving appropriate bosses some unique spells, skills, or the like would make things more interesting. I don't mind, "phased" bosses either.

 

Just don't use the tired gimmick of "invulnerability unless X" and don't overdo it. Remember, if you've 9hp left and I land a 2500 Arcane Apocalypse smackdown that converts your torso to the Holy Church of Unidenfitiable Goo, to hell with the script, you are DEAD. You should have spent less time editing your death monolog and more time preparing your defenses. A balance between enough spice to make the bosses bite back a little more with more flavor, and not completely throwing the game out in favor of square dancing around some MMO lifted dodge mechanic or the like would be optimal.

 

This is perhaps the tallest order of all, but an Oblivion-esque style of Spell customization would be too awesome. I can see it being a nightmare to set up and balance, but it would add so much and open so many doors… Being able to throw a fireball that leaves a lasting cloud of flame, walls of fire AND ice, spells that not only remove mental effects but also protect against them… ah, the possibilities!

 

I like wands/rods that function as default mage weapons, giving them a mana-saving option. That's not to say I want to see wands stripped of their current role, of course not. But having something added, magical staffs that act as equipable weapons, that would be a good addition. My mages and priests… honestly, couldn't care less about what weapons they usually ended up using for most of the game.

 

Inventory expansion – if we're NOT going to go with Avadon's fantastic bag of holding, which I can see, it would be awesome if you could expand on the maximum number of items a character can hold. Or, even better, just leave it straight up to max weight carrying capacity via strength – if I can carry a suit of chainmail consisting of HUNDREDS of rings, carrying 21 rings in a jerkin pocket (jerkins have pockets, right?) isn't too much of a tall order. Games that make contact lenses as much of a hassle to carry as entire suits of armor have really begun to wear on me.

 

Day night dynam--- … we're in a cave. Right… Well… How about things that are day-dependant, like that one tomb, but perhaps more on a casual basis. Maybe the Tower of Magi could have a Friday special on spells, or some NPCs would do things differently dependant on what day it is.

 

A big one for me, would be a much greater impact of "reputation" in general. Here I am, a 98 reputation "True Hero" and some grumpy mage is giving me lip? Boy, I've seen and done and even forgotten things that would give your nightmares nightmares, I've accomplished more in two months than your entire family will in three generations, and my socks have done more for this country than you have. And I'm humble too. Show some respect!!!

 

More history! I'd love to see an Avernum "codex" so to speak, laying out characters, details, and events that, while they might not happen on stage, would just breathe life into the gave. I loved Avadon's codex, and even with as much detail as there is with Avernum as we know it, there's always room for more. Who really were the doomed explorers of the First Expedition? When was Fort Duvno established? How about how Avernum and Motrax became such good buddies? There's infinite room for expansion, and this is something we all know Jeff could readily do.

 

Finally… I'd love to see more of a sense of interconnectivity. When I've done something, the more people who know about it, the bigger of an accomplishment it feels. This really ties in with the reputation thing, but on a more specific scale, having my accomplishments have more of a "global" impact and less one of a "localized" nature would make things have so much greater impact.

 

Yeah, it's a lot to ask, a lot to sift through, and much of it is either completely unfeasible, or simply not with the times. Unfortunately, for all us nostalgia junkies, there are limits to how retro a game can be and still be successful. Supposedly. Personally, I think a cavernously huge game that takes place in a cavern filled with misfits targeted at misfits who're behind the times might make sense, but I'm not in the business, so what do I know?

 

Still, we've all the license to dream, and talk hurts nothing. Worst case, false information shows up and we're all disappointed. Best cast, Jeff pokes his head in, sees something that makes him muse thoughtfully, and Super Exile I Turbo ultimately showcases something someone here brought up. Either way, it's fun to think about, no?

 

Ah well, tl:dr

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Originally Posted By: Necris Omega
Wow, this topic has really flown off the rails…

That will happen sometimes.

 

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega
Sulfras, the magic gender confused dragon

I never liked her/him/it for some reason.

 

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega
Honestly, I find humans boring, and will generally opt for an all Slith or Nephil party, plot be damned

I know. I usually go with a human attacker, that can kill in an almost instant hit with all the skill i put into his strength and melee weapons. I go with a Slith tank that can also do some good damage with a spear. A nephile priest, and a human mage.

 

 

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega
Curses! Dispelling! A massive, MASSIVE library of fun area spells to throw down, from walls of fire, to balls of lingering frost, fields of static, to spheres of anti-magic. There was so much Exile offered in terms of spell effects that Avernum just culled, it's a tragedy. Even if you CAN'T bring back all these wonderful spells in spellform, at least give us a wand or two. If nothing else, please bring back Divine Thud.

I know. Exile had so many usefull spells. Or some just plain funny ones.

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I do remember Athron having some issues, and I vaguely remember Pyrog maybe being referenced as female maybe once or twice in the original, but I can't remember Khoth ever having a problem. Sulfras is the one that really, really sticks out in my mind, as even Avernum seems to have folks confused. Maybe, as people have said, it's just not overtly obvious what gender a dragon is, and in earlier encounters it's just never definitively revealed...

 

You could be right about them ALL leaving us poor mortals confused, though. It's been an eon and a day since I last picked up Exile.

 

Here's hoping they all get their... crotches on straight this time around. :x

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It's unknown, Trenton. Presumably they found somewhere less populated, since that was always the complaint about Avernum, too many people showed up, and since Avernum 4 demonstrated that the population kept increasing, it made sense for them to depart around then.

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I think if anything ill befell any of the other dragons, Athron would both have been aware of it, and used it as leverage in arguing for her son to stop playing with the humans. Seeing as she didn't make a point to bring up any such events, I'd assume Khoth and Sulfras are alive, well, and perhaps deep into some hellish revenge plot against the Empire.

 

Who knows? Maybe they're the ones who ultimately cause it to dissolve.

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Perhaps Dragons can change their sex (without surgery). Frogs and fish do it based on population pressures, why not dragons? There are so few of them that perhaps they must actually change sex to ensure the survival of the species. This would explain how (and why) Athron became the mother of Melanchion.

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