The coming Avernum rewrites

[Kyronea]

Heh, I noticed that the distances on the sign for between Fort Avernum and Fort Duvno, and Fort Avernum and Silvar, have been radically scaled down. Eight and seven respectively. Hrm.

 

Anyway, that FAQ has me very intrigued, and I hope we see more details on the skill trees and traits and such in the near future, because they definitely sound interesting.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Alorael, who has to say he's excited to have leveling be flatter. In Avernum, the benefits you get for leveling generally decrease over the course of the game, because skill points per level are static and costs for the things you put most of them in go up. Here, you'll get steadier boosts.

Seconded. This was something that bugged me about leveling in the more recent Avernum and Geneforge games. Levels would come half as often or less compared to the early game, yet buy far fewer actual skills.

[Death Knight]

I was checking the pictures out at work. Cool!!

 

I am somewhat worried though that Avernum might make the battle disciplines like a point system that avadon had. Ive only played a4 and a5, but i hope that the battle disciplines arent like avadon's abilities.

[Kyronea]

Perhaps later levels could give more skill points. Like, say, levels 1-10 give 5, levels 11-15 give 6, then 7, and so on.

 

But that assumes he hasn't redone the system entirely, which it seems like he might have.

 

Also, let's see if we can't figure out some of the skills based on the skill tree images.

 

http://www.avernum.com/images/avernum/AvernumTraining.jpg

 

So far we have--obviously--Edged/Bladed Melee, Pole Melee, Bows, and Thrown Weapons. (Interesting he chooses a razordisc image given that the Vahnatai don't really show up until Crystal Souls.)

 

Above Edged Melee, we have...a guy holding a sword over his head...not sure what that could be. The thing above it seems like some sort of armor training, and the thing above that looks like it could be for something akin to assassination.

 

Above Pole we have a sword with...sound waves coming out of it? No idea. Then we have what looks like someone running away, or it could be running into combat...I think that's actually one of the old autocombat images, which makes it even more confusing. Then we have DUEL WIELDING! Always fun. Makes me wonder if we'll be able to duel wield one-handed poles this time around...dual-wielded spears would be pretty cool.

 

Above Bows is something that looks like a target, so I'm guessing that must be accuracy or something. Above that is...poison, maybe? Or maybe that's the assassination skill and the other thing is something else.

 

Then above Throwing we have something that might be to increase AP, and something else that I have no idea what it is, except maybe allowing a throwing weapon to shatter on impact and deal smaller damage to other targets, like some sort of chain lightning, except with throwing weapons. Which sounds fairly ridiculous so that's probably not it.

 

Yeah I'm probably wrong on all of these guesses except the basics and the duel wielding, but it was fun to try to guess!

[Necris Omega]

... Y'know, those character graphics really ARE well revamped. I like the inventory screen too - not having the item graphics directly on top of the character really makes a better use of that graphic. Not to mention the item graphics themselves. It would be nice to hear if Dual Welding returns, as well as the... the...

 

OMG does that say "Open Junk Bag" up there!? EEEeee!!!

 

 

... Sorry, minor composure lapse. Ahem, *Straighten tie* where was I?

 

Hm, not terrifically sold on the Avadon-styled skill system. You might think I'm just being an oldskool curmudgeon on this one, but actually for me it's more an issue that, compared to other such trees (Diablo 2 is my favorite example) Avadon's skill system was terribly restrictive. I'm all for letting your warrior/thief/ninja have as big and fun a toolbox as your wizards and clerics, but… Avadon repeatedly forced you to invest in early skills time and time again. To that end, while I see why he's abandoning the original system, I'm not sure this solves the problem Jeff's trying to tackle to the extent such a massive revamp should.

 

No non-human characters once again – a restriction I definitely understand. Yeah, I find humans to be the most boring thing they're in whenever there is an alternative, but… In the first Avernum, it would just be weird. (I'm assuming this, of course, because the screenshots scream "default party" which always traditionally had a slith in the later games).

 

An epic improvement on the map of Avernum, if I do say so myself. All parchment-y and what not, real classy… Some of the northern tunnels do become very unclear against the textured background, though.

 

I'm downright ecstatic to see the outdoors return. Avernum feels big again. The graphics for it don't look half-bad either.

 

I wonder how the "Tutorial" dungeon will fit in. Exiling Portal has a brainfart due to solar flares or something and spits you out in the basement instead? … I've never really been a fan of throwing the characters right into the frying pan to try and teach them the basics, but… well, to be perfectly honest, I really, really would have benefited from that way back in Exile 2. To say I was terrible to start out… Let me put it this way – my solution to a "dead" character was to delete them and create a new party member identical to said character.

 

Ah well. Like any diehard, longtime fan of Avernum/Exile, I'm psyched for this.

[Alorael at Large]

It'd be interesting to have the tutorial level be before you get tossed through the portal. Heroic last stand, attempted prison break, and so on. The problems are that you'd get an assumption of what your characters were up to before banishment and, well, you'd have to fail. Instead, I can see it being something like having Tor give newcomers some minor errands to complete in return for their basic welcome package. Clean the rats and goblins out of the cellars, perhaps?

 

Also, the lampshading of the change in distances due to cavequakes? Brilliant!

 

—Alorael, who agrees with Necris Omega about the skills system. If it works like Avadon, being required to know both melee and poles in order to have any higher abilities means that there's actually no point in the existence of two different skills. They might as well be one skill that costs twice as much. Since that seems unlike any other Avernum, he thinks that the new system looks like you won't be capped by the points in the prerequisite skills. Or so he hopes.

[Randomizer]

There is sort of a tutorial in that you walk out of the walls of Fort Avernum and find rats by the trash pile.

[nikki.]

Or you need, say, 8 points in tier one to open tier two skills, and they can be spread out or lumped on one skill?

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega

No non-human characters once again – a restriction I definitely understand. Yeah, I find humans to be the most boring thing they're in whenever there is an alternative, but… In the first Avernum, it would just be weird. (I'm assuming this, of course, because the screenshots scream "default party" which always traditionally had a slith in the later games).

Non-human party members for this game don't make sense as far as the plot is concerned. Where would the empire get the Sliths to throw down?

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Non-human party members for this game don't make sense as far as the plot is concerned. Where would the empire get the Sliths to throw down?

From sojourns to hell?

[Slawbug]

I know dual-wielding swords isn't realistic, either. But dual-wielding spears doesn't even make any sense in fantasy pretend land.

[Necris Omega]

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Non-human party members for this game don't make sense as far as the plot is concerned. Where would the empire get the Sliths to throw down?

On one hand, yes, this exactly. That and Nephilim are cited specifically to be thrown into a different portal in deeper caves. On the other hand, I was never terrifically sold on the idea of a Slith working for the Empire in Avernum 5 either. Ah well, there's more justification there, while here there's none.

Not that it bothers me, really. Unlike say, Dragon Age 2, which abruptly amputates racial choice, Avernum grows your choices as the series goes on. Once anyways. Exile: Escape from the Pit was fine without Nephilim and Slithzerkai in the party, Avernum was fine without them, and Avernum: Look at my Shiny Subtitle will be too.

Ah well. It's hard not to dream of Avernum 2: Crystal Souls, even though it's way, WAY too soon for that. We may have an Avadon sequel before that happens.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

what are you talking about! Drizzt used two swords.

 

**this is reply to House of S**

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega

On one hand, yes, this exactly. That and Nephilim are cited specifically to be thrown into a different portal in deeper caves.

Nope. Nephil are. Sliths are not on the surface until A3, as far as we know.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Shelagh

Nope. Nephil are. Sliths are not on the surface until A3, as far as we know.

You're not actually disagreeing with him: he said "that (the fact that there are no Sliths on the surface), and as for Nephilim, they are...", not "they (the Sliths) and Nephilim are...".

[Slawbug]

English students these days.

[Kyronea]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

I know dual-wielding swords isn't realistic, either. But dual-wielding spears doesn't even make any sense in fantasy pretend land.

But...dual wielding!

Can't we just invoke rule of cool here? The problem with poles in the Avernum series is that they're rarely useful next to swords, and this would give them a bigger use than what they have right now.

[Alorael at Large]

Really? Poles have reliably done more damage until A6. Slightly better poles or slightly more restrictive dual wielding could balance that out.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the problem is with the image. You can use a sword with one hand, so you can use two swords with two hands. Most spears require two hands; how do you use two at once without it becoming really awkward?

[Necris Omega]

And that's only specifically spears - once you get into the really, REALLY heavy pole weapons like Halberds, Lances, Pikes, Bardiches, ect. ...

 

Dual Wielding Halberds is just...

 

Alorael is right, Polearms are fine without making Avernum raise its disbelief ceiling. Yeah, swords more often than not get the spotlight with flashier and more exotic effects, but never forget that reliably, the most powerful weapon in Avernum is a Halberd. Jade, Chaotic, Black...

 

Swords are cool, but if you really, really wanna mangle something hard enough to not just kill it, but make toilet paper out of its entire family tree in one blow...

[Kyronea]

Well I'm only talking about dual-wielding the one-handed spears, which pretty much rules out almost all the other polearms...which then arguably makes the point to dual-wielding them moot.

 

Anyway it was just an idea.

[Erebus the Black]

Weeell, if a creature has more than 4 arms it can d-wield poles. For example in one of the sorcery books eating a certain cheese has a chance of making you sprout an extra arm which then allows you to wield a two handed weapon and a one handed weapon at once or a two handed weapon and a shield.

So if their tales were nimble and strong enough sliths and nephils (like the lion people in Albion) could have used them as a third appendage to hold an extra knife.

[Harehunter]

While it is possible to wield two swords, there is a limit as to the weight of each sword. Two rapiers or two short swords is possible. But can you imagine wielding two swords the size of a Claymore? I think that it would encumber the player more than it would be worth.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

beware the four armed slith with dual wielding halberds!

[Skwish-E]

Beware the GIFTS with THREE halberds.

[Slawbug]

That would make a sadly appropriate optional superboss.

[Earth]

why halberds not acid/poison poles?

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

first thing i thought of

[Dantius]

Why not GIGANTIC JRPG BROADSWORDS like in Final Fantasy, if we're speculating?

[Earth]

not that many enemies use broadswords.

[nikki.]

This thread, and in particular the last comment, floored me.

[Enraged Slith]

Concerning my future archer, would it be preferable to use two bows at the same time or to fire two arrows at once?

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith

Concerning my future archer, would it be preferable to use two bows at the same time or to fire two arrows at once?

Relevant.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

Originally Posted By: Enraged Slith

Concerning my future archer, would it be preferable to use two bows at the same time or to fire two arrows at once?

Relevant.

Only four of those arrows are going to hit. Four will end in the ground, and the other four will fly way too high. Stupid ranger.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

But can you imagine wielding two swords the size of a Claymore?

Like in Diablo 2! In fairness, Diablo 2 is a very silly game.

@Kyronea: I would guess that there will only be two-handed pole weapons and one-handed melee weapons this time around, like in the second Avernum trilogy. Given that there aren't multiple physical damage types (like the cut/pierce/crush triad common in many games), the differences between melee and pole weapon skills would essentially be purely cosmetic otherwise.

[Kyronea]

Okay okay, so dual-wielding poles is silly.

[Necris Omega]

This does remind me, however - Are we going to be once more stuck with Bows and JUST Bows, or we'll we finally be getting back our Crossbows? Also, Greatswords* please.

 

I always find it ironic that one of the NPCs comments on how the Slithzerkai had great weapons but just lacked the diversity humanity was armed with after the whole of Exile's armory was busted and broken down time and time again… Simpler isn't always better, and constant dumbing down of first Exile then Avernum's weapon sets was something that really, really got on my nerves.

 

*No, I don't care to dual wield them, as much as I loved Diablo II, the Barbarian and his DIII reincarnation can watch everything they and their ancestors fought and die for explode like the whole earth's nuclear stockpile making out with a meteor impact...

[Lilith]

It's not like there was ever very much reason to use bashing weapons in the first place, nor to use greatswords other than Demonslayer in any game beyond Exile 1, so I don't count their disappearance as a great loss.

[Randomizer]

Smite got remade as a spear from Exile when it was in Avernum.

[Firecage]

Well, I REALLY do hope that jeff expands the variety of weapons again. And I kinda do miss using arrows aswell...

 

Btw, will the skill system be as simple as avadons, or be more complex?

[Kyronea]

The variety of weapon types may have shrunk, but the number of weapons for each type has only grown with each entry in the series.

 

Things like the Serendipity Knife, for instance, never existed in the original Exiles.

 

Though I do admit I miss being able to do something silly like dual-wield a mace and a broadsword on one of my characters.

 

But there's always tabletop for that.

[Lauren CW]

Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie

what are you talking about! Drizzt used two swords.

**this is reply to House of S**

This is me, logging in at 3:00am to tell you that I read forgotten realms, and the reference is not lost on me.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Shelagh

This thread, and in particular the last comment, floored me.

outside human enemies, Sliths use spears mostly and Nephils use bows etc and Goblins use daggers or small clubs and Giants use their hands, rocks and big clubs.

[Necris Omega]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

It's not like there was ever very much reason to use bashing weapons in the first place, nor to use greatswords other than Demonslayer in any game beyond Exile 1, so I don't count their disappearance as a great loss.

It isn't always about min-maxing stats - there's power in the simple notion of image. Yeah, the Black Halberd was beyond any shadow of a doubt the most powerful weapon in Avernum 3, but I wouldn't be the only person to claim the Mithral Greatsword or Alien Blade was just plain cooler.

Plus, a big and diverse cache of weapons makes a game feel more alive. Even if I don't opt to use clubs; the fact that they exist makes things more believable. Even if I don't opt to use clubs; it doesn't mean it's more believable when they're not there. Yeah, Jeff COULD have done more to give incentive to use the more obscure weapons, but at least they were there, and there's more to items than just what you personally use.

Honestly, I think there's more value in having 100 different weapons and only expecting a player to realistically consider using 50 or so as opposed to a million different "domestic" items that never get used or serve any real purpose at all beyond area dressing. Even if statwise they're completely identical, a character using an axe and a character using a sword will have a different feel in a players mind. All the spoons and potted plants in the world won't have that kind of effect.

And I would even argue that while Avernum might have had a few more special weapons of each type, there was plenty just from the original Exile that were likewise erased, even when their weapon types weren't. Scrioth, the Death Lance… there was a very specific Knife from the Altar in either Ornatha Ziggurat or the fortress beyond Fort Remote that that was genericized… there are other wildly obscure weapons I'm sure people could bring up that just fell by the wayside in Avernum vs. Exile that had no reason to, or could have been converted like Smite was.

I guess the more expansive set of "Standardized" weapons from Exile just made the rare special weapons that much more unique.

I just don't like my arsenal boiled down to something so simple a lobotomized monkey could master it. Okay, so I can't go around swinging an enchanted flail (my favorite bludgeoning weapon) – at least give me one handed spears, two handed swords, and crossbows. Simplifying a system is one thing, but the later Avernums just went way too far.

[Slawbug]

WHY is a useless weapon that you never bother with a better gaming experience than a useless household item that you also never bother with? I'm not sure I'm seeing the distinction.

[Randomizer]

Some players like to have a trophy room of useless weapons.

 

Then you have Dikiyoba that likes to have neat stacks of useless domestic items and rocks carefully arranged in a vacant zone.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Earth Empires

Originally Posted By: Shelagh

This thread, and in particular the last comment, floored me.

outside human enemies, Sliths use spears mostly and Nephils use bows etc and Goblins use daggers or small clubs and Giants use their hands, rocks and big clubs.

Yeah, no. It floored me because it was so dumb and stupid, not because I never knew which enemies used which weapons in this game, but thanks for the thought.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Serendipity Knife was in E3 - on an island in the north of Krizsan province. Maybe it was just a diamond dagger though, I dunno...

[Necris Omega]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

WHY is a useless weapon that you never bother with a better gaming experience than a useless household item that you also never bother with? I'm not sure I'm seeing the distinction.

"Useless" weapons are not only more valuable in general, but more dynamic and interesting in the long run, not to mention provide a greater medium for "unique" and "Interesting" items that add to the game.

Let's compare spoons vs. clubs. You could theoretically find a "unique" club somewhere with stats that might feasibly be useful, make you scratch your head, or otherwise remember that specific club. Maybe it came from a giant chieftain, maybe ogre mage was wielding it, maybe some insane mage broke off the leg of his piano and started enchanting it, who knows? The point it, with "clubs" in a game, you can get something from them even if you've no characters who specialize in clubs.

With spoons in the game… what the heck are you ever going to do with a frickin' spoon? It's a SPOON! Most adventurers live on finger food anyways. The ONLY purpose a spoon has is to show the world that, "hey, AVERNUM HAS SPOONS!!!" … maybe if you're lucky you'll find a quest that has some random person looking for one of these items, but other than that, domestic like that serve no purpose beyond dressing.

And MAGIC spoons? Really? What are you, a demented Halfling? … If Jeff jumped down the route of having enchanted unique "trinkets" like the Xian items then maybe, but as it stands there's nothing even interesting, let alone useful about mundane junk.

Yes, many weapons will only serve as dressing as their PRIMARY function, but they can at least go beyond that. A specific weapon has a specific flavor, making monsters feel more savage or brutal in accordance, or more memorable. But spoons and forks and pots and pans and all that other stuff that exists for no useful reason have minimal value at best.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega

"hey, AVERNUM HAS SPOONS!!!"

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega

And MAGIC spoons? Really? What are you, a demented Halfling?

I just have to say that these two quotes are amazing.

[Enraged Slith]

Originally Posted By: Necris Omega

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

WHY is a useless weapon that you never bother with a better gaming experience than a useless household item that you also never bother with? I'm not sure I'm seeing the distinction.

"Useless" weapons are not only more valuable in general, but more dynamic and interesting in the long run, not to mention provide a greater medium for "unique" and "Interesting" items that add to the game.

Let's compare spoons vs. clubs. You could theoretically find a "unique" club somewhere with stats that might feasibly be useful, make you scratch your head, or otherwise remember that specific club. Maybe it came from a giant chieftain, maybe ogre mage was wielding it, maybe some insane mage broke off the leg of his piano and started enchanting it, who knows? The point it, with "clubs" in a game, you can get something from them even if you've no characters who specialize in clubs.

With spoons in the game… what the heck are you ever going to do with a frickin' spoon? It's a SPOON! Most adventurers live on finger food anyways. The ONLY purpose a spoon has is to show the world that, "hey, AVERNUM HAS SPOONS!!!" … maybe if you're lucky you'll find a quest that has some random person looking for one of these items, but other than that, domestic like that serve no purpose beyond dressing.

And MAGIC spoons? Really? What are you, a demented Halfling? … If Jeff jumped down the route of having enchanted unique "trinkets" like the Xian items then maybe, but as it stands there's nothing even interesting, let alone useful about mundane junk.

Yes, many weapons will only serve as dressing as their PRIMARY function, but they can at least go beyond that. A specific weapon has a specific flavor, making monsters feel more savage or brutal in accordance, or more memorable. But spoons and forks and pots and pans and all that other stuff that exists for no useful reason have minimal value at best.

On my dead laptop, in an unfinished BoA scenario, I had an intro picture of a frothy mercenary with eating utensils tied to his glove, wolverine style. He also had a cooking pot for a helmet, a spoon for an eyepatch, a sock serving as a replacement strap for his armor, and a dinner plate covering his torso. I wish I still had it, it would have been so appropriate to post right now. You're all just going to have to imagine it.

[nikki.]

I think the normal household-y type things (yes, including the OFFENSIVE SPOONS), are really there to show you that, hey, yeah, you might be the big dopey sword guy, but you're in a world where everybody else is pretty normal. I mean, if you broke into somebody's house in RL and went through their stuff, I'm sure you'd find plates and spoons and pants too.