Fighting Redbeard (spoilers, obviously)

[Dantius]

Under normal circumstances I would point to the final fight in KotoR as an example of an interesting boss fight (It incorporated mechanics not seen elsewhere in the game, so it wasn't stale), but that's lessened by the fact that you have to spend hours fighting through streams of infinite respawning Dark Jedi to actually reach Malak, which is really not a good thing.

[Achire]

Here are some thoughts on this fight from a more casual player's perspective. I'm a long-time fan of the Geneforge series but I have not played the Avernum series other than Nethergate that used the same engine. I like turn-based combat but I don't play SW games for the combat, I play them for the writing, story and the ability to make interesting decisions. I always play through the games on normal.

 

Overall I enjoyed Avadon, though I would have preferred more exploration and less linearity. I played as a blademaster and completed all the optional party-member sidequests. I killed both the dragon and the trapped demon lord. I decided to also kill Redbeard. It was completely unclear to me that you could use all loyal party members in this fight whereas in the whole rest of the game you can only have two people with you. I had no idea this was possible until reading this thread. Why would anyone ever not want to take all loyal followers to this fight if it's possible?

 

As for the actual encounter, I did notice both secret rooms and all four MacGuffins. Even though I had completed every single (other) optional encounter in the game with relatively few difficulties, I was completely unable to win this fight on normal. So I changed the difficulty to casual just to see the ending. Except I wasn't able to kill Redbeard on casual either. So I used cheats to heal my characters and even then this fight took forever. I feel that this is unquestionably terrible design.

 

Some are saying that Redbeard is the optional hard boss in Avadon, he's supposed to be really difficult. My answer to that is simply why? Why is Redbeard the difficult boss and not the demon lord? How can anyone play as a rebel and have a satisfactory ending to the game without killing Redbeard? There are difficult optional encounters in the Geneforge series as well but none of those are required for any of the endings. The other issue is why is this encounter so much harder than every other encounter in the game and much, much harder than any optional encounter on normal or casual difficulty in the entire Geneforge series?

 

To me, playing on the casual difficulty means that one is not at all interested in the combat and just wants to follow the story. Suppose I had played the whole game on casual instead of normal and wanted to see the proper ending. How would I reasonably accomplish that when the jump in difficulty is so great?

 

In short, why is Redbeard the difficult boss and not the demon or the dragon. Furthermore, why is this fight so difficult on normal and casual? Overall, I feel that not retuning this encounter for the Windows release of Avadon would be a big mistake.

[Jerakeen]

I think that the story requires Redbeard to be nearly impossible to kill--if it were easy, someone would have done it by now, right?

 

That would be fine if the rebel path was less of an obvious choice all the way through the game. If it were more of a hidden, "destroyer" ending for hard-core enthusiasts only. The loyalist ending will probably turn out to be canon, but this is far from clear on the first play-through. As you go along making choices and having conversations, both options are presented almost from the beginning, making them both seem feasible. The player has no reason to suppose that one is orders of magnitude harder than the other.

 

Another solution would be to reward total disloyalty (i.e. doing all the Wayfarer's quests, letting the Duke live, etc.) with some kind of extra help from Heart Miranda for the final fight.

[Tracer Bullet]

Originally Posted By: CRISIS on INFINITE SLARTIES

What CRPGs can you think of that actually have interesting final boss fights?

Definitely not the Destiny Knight. Maybe FATE II, which, while strongly roguelike, pulled in a twist for the fight with Kaos. I've never been a fan of roguelikes, but if I had to have a favorite, that would be it.

[BenS]

Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves

I think that the story requires Redbeard to be nearly impossible to kill--if it were easy, someone would have done it by now, right?

That would be fine if the rebel path was less of an obvious choice all the way through the game. If it were more of a hidden, "destroyer" ending for hard-core enthusiasts only. The loyalist ending will probably turn out to be canon, but this is far from clear on the first play-through. As you go along making choices and having conversations, both options are presented almost from the beginning, making them both seem feasible. The player has no reason to suppose that one is orders of magnitude harder than the other.

Another solution would be to reward total disloyalty (i.e. doing all the Wayfarer's quests, letting the Duke live, etc.) with some kind of extra help from Heart Miranda for the final fight.

Thanks to Achire for presenting the voice of complaint of the casual gamer to the Redbeard fight. And to The Turtle Moves for bringing part of the complaint into focus. The story is set up, w/ your aggrieved companions, to clearly present a choice between staying loyal and rebelling against Redbeard. An either/or ending w/ slight variations. There's just no compelling reason to make 1 of those 2 basic choices so aggravatingly hard and/or tedious (YMMV).

And thanks for agreeing w/ me on the "extra help" from Heart Miranda for rewarding total disloyalty, which was my 2nd playthrough.

I think Jeff would be well served to retune that final fight for the Windows players, honestly. They're a larger pool of gamers, and for a new series trying to attract new SW players, I just think it's best to avoid turning some of them off w/ the current version of the Redbeard fight.

[BenS]

Originally Posted By: Achire

As for the actual encounter, I did notice both secret rooms and all four MacGuffins.

I'm going to feel real stupid if I missed something here, but are you implying there was something in those 2 secret rooms that would have aided me in the fight?

[Achire]

No, I simply meant that I noticed both rooms with the total of four things that give power to Redbeard (soul jars?) that you have to kill. This was mentioned earlier in the thread. The wording was a bit unclear, sorry.

[*i]

I see the point that the kill Redbeard path should have been more like an unpalatable path throughout the game much as joining the Darkside Loyalists were in A5. Had the general theme throughout the game been everyone pretty much resigned to his rule and telling you that challenging Redbeard is insanity and not viable, then I think this ridiculously tough battle would have been more appropriate.

 

In fact, I would have rather liked it only possible to challenge Redbeard and not be immediately annihilated if you were in league with the Wayfarer for at least the last half of the game. As Redbeard said, the Wayfarer only posed a threat because of surprise and the only way to win is if you joined him in combat.

 

Perhaps there could have been three types of endings, the first two of which are "easy": You serving Redbeard as a loyal servant, you serving Redbeard only on surface but an agent for the opposition, or the most difficult ending of taking his place.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

On the subject of interesting final boss fights:

 

-Manfred Redmark in Avernum 5. Dorikas was the type of interminable, not especially attack-oriented boss that people have complained Redbeard is. The Redmark fight is much more fast and furious, and includes interesting tactical decisions in terms of the order in which one destroys his pylons. Despite fighting him on my munchkin-tastic second play, he was still a challenge.

-(Ranging a bit farther afield) Braska's Final Aeon from FF10. Difficult, but the kind of difficult that rewarded intelligent battle strategy (and had some interesting extra options), rather than the usual 'use your strongest spell/limit break on it until it dies or you do' approach that characterizes most of the series, and an unfortunate number of Japanese RPGs. There was one trick that made the battle a little too easy, but it was a high-level attack on a relatively ancillary character, so it was easy to miss.

 

In sum, I like final bosses that are hard, but allow a clever player to beat them without a huge amount of grinding. Also, as with many in this thread, I prefer bosses that do scads of damage to those with scads of health.

 

Also, I agree with Stareye et al that the Redbeard fight would have been more appropriate to a Darkside Loyalists-esque alternate path, as opposed to one that was presented as no less morally legitimate, and otherwise as easy to access, as the loyal hand option.

[Tracer Bullet]

I love games that force tactical innovation in combat. It's one of the criteria on which I settled for SW.

[madrigan]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

Also, I agree with Stareye et al that the Redbeard fight would have been more appropriate to a Darkside Loyalists-esque alternate path, as opposed to one that was presented as no less morally legitimate, and otherwise as easy to access, as the loyal hand option.

Just registering my agreement with this statement. On my first playthrough I was kind of in the middle on loyalty, but I didn't try to kill Redbeard. I had seen enough discussion on the forum to know that my fairly haphazard 25th level character was never going to be able to beat him -- especially with only one of the companion quests completed to the satisfaction of the companion.

Now I am playing through as a more loyal minion. I can see that killing Redbeard is not going to be an option for the casual player.

[DStaal]

I had no trouble seeing the switches is this room. (At least.) To me, the 'take over from Redbeard' looked like the main choice.

 

I've played SW games for ages, but haven't really followed the board until this one. Usually I don't complete them, as they just take too much time.

 

Redbeard... I've got a shaman main character, all characters loyal, everyone at level 30, normal difficulty. Natalie can take out one soul jar every 3-4 turns, depending on how well she's hitting and on whether I had to renew her haste. I switched a couple of times between Shadowalker and Blademaster on the other. Either one seems to take 5-6 turns to take out a soul jar. I've got the two shamans and the other of the above in the main room with Redbeard, who's creating soul jars about as fast as I'm destroying them.

 

So, I've got two characters fighting eternally regenerating stone statues, two who are mainly healing each other and dispelling mental effects (with the occasional buff or attack, if they get a chance, as well as summoning cannon fodder), and one who's doing 1-2 points of damage a turn. Usually. For a couple of hours.

 

And all I'm thinking is 'how do I get him to stop creating soul jars?' I try standing in the empty circle, pressing the buttons again, seeing if there is anything else to attack, etc. Nope. Just attack, haste, heal, attack, haste, heal, attack...

 

Optimal strategy becomes obvious within about a minute in. From that point on... All you are doing is seeing how long you have patience for. You're not killing anything. You're not going anywhere. You are just stuck there fighting in circles, literally.

 

I quit after probably about an hour, maybe a bit more. Redbeard was down to about a quarter health: Most of that had been done in the first few rounds before he started summoning soul jars. I wasn't running low on anything yet: I just didn't see the point in continuing to play. I was following the advice of basically every character in the game I'd met (even the loading screens between areas!), and I might as well be trying to wear down a mountain with my fingernails. I was probably winning, but at some point you have to wonder if maybe I should just go swim in the ocean instead.

 

There's no strategy involved in this fight. No tactics or puzzles to solve. If you have the patience to sit there and slug it out, you'll win (unless you make to many mistakes). I kept looking for something which would let me end the fight, but couldn't find anything.

 

(Note: I took out the demon lord in no more than a couple dozen rounds. You spend more time in that one battle than you do is some whole quests.)

[Fael]

Originally Posted By: DStaal

Optimal strategy becomes obvious within about a minute in. From that point on... All you are doing is seeing how long you have patience for. You're not killing anything. You're not going anywhere. You are just stuck there fighting in circles, literally.

There's no strategy involved in this fight. No tactics or puzzles to solve. If you have the patience to sit there and slug it out, you'll win (unless you make to many mistakes). I kept looking for something which would let me end the fight, but couldn't find anything.

It does occur to me, however, that if your doctor tells you that you only have three hours to live, doing this fight would be a great way to spend them -- they'll seem to last forever, and by the end death will be a relief.

[Demseinwetter]

I just finished Redbeard (with a party of five) and it was still pretty exhausting (I shouldn't have wasted as much energy (and equipment) on Zephryne, the Duke, Beloch and the likes.

 

A good way to survive is to equip every team member with enough supplies to stay hasted and battle frenzied throughout.

 

What really worked out pretty well for me, was my Blademaster, Sevelin and Jenell staying outside, delaying Redbeard, while Shima and Nathalie were in one Guardian room each, downing the health of all four Soul Jars down to practically nothing so that I could take them all out in one swing and hit Redbeard with all I've got. And as he can only create one new Guardia every other round (at least on Normal difficulty), this worked out pretty well.

[elchipeo]

Having played through the whole damn game on torment, i didn't want to lower the diff level. Although, according to you guys, it doesn't really matter. So I balanced things a little. I dropped the stats on the souljar script, he's lvl 28, i dropped them to 10, got rid of some resistances (jenell the shaman promptly took her proper place in a side room taking them down with her pet drake.) They were still pretty hard to kill, but it was manageable to do it with Nathalie and tankman helping me out (i played as shadowwalker) and shima in the other side room.

 

The fight could be left how it is if there was a limit on the soul jars. 4 would be adequate. Enough to show he knows what he's doing and explain why everyone else got their ass kicked. How much soul does redbeard have anyway? last time I checked, he was pretty soulless, not fricken Ray Charles.

 

btw jeff, if you're reading this, I resent him dying from a heart attack. I didn't just spend all day hacking at his face for him to go out because he didn't do enough cardio.

 

It was pretty obvious for me that there would be a fight, reason for me to do the character quests and ensure loyalty for myself, a very much in character thing to do, me playing as a power-hungry shadowwalker that wants avadon for himself, because of both ego and morals. The only quest i actually had moral qualms about was shima's. seemed to me like redbeard got that one right, politically speaking. That and not killing the duke. I figured sparing him would force him to side with me as keeper. no such luck, bastard kept cozying up to the tawons. Only regret from this playthrough.

 

while i'm at it, did anyone else notice similarities between the nations of avadon and real cultures? The Kva totally had an ancient israel vibe going on. The Tawon empire reminds me of present-day russia. I could go on.

 

peace

[Marak]

The more I read this thread, the less I want to try and go the "piss off Redbeard, I could totally be a better Keeper than you!" route, especially since I'm now attempting a Torment playthrough. Sounds like he's pretty much impossible on Torment and takes about 15 times longer to kill than he should on anything other than Casual. o_O

 

I like whoever summed it up in that other thread... "the general consensus is that he's hard for all the wrong reasons."

 

Sounds about right.

[Mike Echo]

Well, I don't have Shima, but I do have everyone else (level 26ish). After getting frustrated I changed difficulty to 'casual'. After getting frustrated again I began cheating. Now I'm entering cheat codes every 2nd round because I just want this boring fight to end - but it won't!

 

I've played (and loved) every Exile, every Geneforge, and the latter Avernums, and with the possible exception of the E3 golem tower this is worst fight I've ever seen. Sorry Jeff :-(

 

Edit:

 

C:\Program Files\Spiderweb Software\Avadon - The Black Fortress\Avadon Files\Scripts\z2rbeard2.txt

 

Ended up changing that to make Redbeard level 3. 95% of this game was great, I just wish I had the last few hours of my life back.

[Dikiyoba]

Umpteenthing the frustration with the Redbeard fight. It was a huge and sudden jump in difficulty, which is not good, especially since I was playing on casual and previous combats had always been, well, casual. Even with all four characters, Redbeard could create soul jars as fast as I could destroy them and disabled any characters left around him with constant mental effects and stunning.

 

A liberal use of cheats (to avoid the crippling mental effects) and dramatically reducing the level of the soul jars (to reduce the amount of health) made the fight managable. Dikiyoba probably didn't even need the cheats, but Dikiyoba was ticked off by that time. Maybe on Dikiyoba's next run. It could even be fun.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Maybe on Dikiyoba's next run. It could even be fun.

Maybe in your dreams, because I never found it in reality.

[dave s]

What scripts do I change to make this easier?

[Mike Echo]

z2rbeard2.txt - find that,

 

beginstate INIT_STATE;

set_level(ME,30);

 

and change the 30 to a lower number. I used 3, but that was way too easy. Maybe 10?

[AethirWeb]

Errr...switch? I've looked around the room for like what thirty failed battles now and i can't find it.

[Dikiyoba]

There are two switches. Both are on the north wall directly behind the statues.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: AethirWeb

Errr...switch? I've looked around the room for like what thirty failed battles now and i can't find it.

Look carefully along the north wall. When you first go in, the switches are not there, and there are extra statues instead. Once the fight starts, those statues vanish and you can find the switches in the gap between statues.

Then the fight can really begin.

[DragonStar]

The irony is that with one tweak, this could have been one of the most satisfying endgames of all. For this battle only, you can have all four companions. There are four soul jars. If each companion stood on the soul jar spawn points and freed you to face Redbeard in mano-a-mano combat, it would have been perfect. Only by spending the entire game cultivating allies -- even completing unpalatable, treasonous character quests to retain companion loyalty -- can you ensure the "greater good" and take over as Keeper. If you flinch even once, Redbeard has an unbeatable defense and you cannot win the disloyal path. This would have given the character quests a true purpose and would also have been satisfying because you would have essentially evened the playing field and taken him on solo.

 

 

"Kill Redbeard" is present in the storyline almost from page one. It is frustrating to make it so impossible to accomplish even when I have spend the entire game with this moment in mind. That said, I still love the game an appreciate the complexity of this world.

[Thycavivor]

I'm about to go into my second "bring the peace" quest. My first run through, I got all noble on my 4 companions' quests and Ned Starked myself into losing to Redbeard. Also, I was only at level 26.

 

I'm now at level 30 (shaman) and finally reading this thread. I have been playing mostly on casual, as I'm more interested in the politics than in the violence. Is there no way to kill Redbeard?

 

Also, is there any compelling reason to kill Zephryne and Beloch? I don't need the XPs, so I'll only go if it helps the endgame or if there is serious loot for my bitchy, needy, cry-baby friends.

[Randomizer]

Yes you can kill them all. Redbeard is meant to be the toughest fight in the game.

 

Killing Zephyrine and Beloch give different endings and make it safer for Avadon. Also you get a little loot that might be useful.

[Dikiyoba]

Killing Zephyrine is more difficult than killing Redbeard. There's no real reason to do it. Killing Beloch drops a nice halberd, but you probably don't need it at this point. However, on casual and at level 30, it shouldn't be too difficult. It's probably worth doing to get a slightly better ending.

 

I killed Redbeard on casual my second time through. It was a long, boring fight, but much less difficult fight now that I knew what I was doing. I stuck Nathalie in one soul jar room and Sevilin in the other. Shima, Jenell, and my shadowwalker attacked Redbeard. Jenell's summons were moderately useful for absorbing a few hits and mental effects. Make sure you have all the scarabs equipped, good equipment on all your characters, and any potions or scrolls that might be helpful.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Thycavivor]

Everybody has character-specific armor and weaponry, and we can each fight with or without shields. (I only use a shield when there are basilisks around because it has 20%mental defense). I have Jenell at a very high dex, because the spirit wolf curse shamans have is a vunerability curse, making anything Nathalie or I throw right after it that much more effective.

 

And I'm loading up on potions and scrolls and wands this time. Last time, I burned through a lot of them hunting the huntress and fighting off Duke Turncloak. I showed up for a fight with Redbeard basically empty handed.

 

Hopefully it will go better this time.

[Susan]

I know it's months later but I'm another casual gamer like Achire upthread and wanted to offer my take.

 

With Avadon, I played through to the final battle with Redbeard once (as a Shaman), flailed around uselessly, and then came here and started poking around for hints. At which point I realized I'd missed a fair number of sidequests and goodies, so I took a couple of weeks off and then restarted as a Shadowwalker.

 

I played on normal; when I got to the final fight last night I was braced to see if I had the patience for it after reading posts here. But I think it took an hour from start (entering the room) to end? Which wasn't as bad as I expected. I realize it's different if you're on hard or torment, but for other casual folk looking for tips:

 

I had Nathalie in one room with a lot of speed & health potions. In other room I started with the two shadowwalkers, then gradually moved everyone else & pets toward that room so Redbeard would follow. I was scared he'd go after Nathalie instead so I may have been overly cautious there, but it was much easier once everyone was in there-- terrified folks would just race into a corner so they were still in range to cure, and arrows/razordisks would reach everywhere so I didn't use APs to move much. I used a lot of group heal & recup crystals, and did resurrect a couple times when I was careless. But with everyone in one room, I could get both souljars there down to low health, then pick them both off with razordisks and hammer Redbeard for a few turns.

 

I don't think anyone has mentioned this so for other casual-types: IME your hits on souljars increase. If your first hit is just 10-20, don't panic and think it's hopeless. Nathalie's first firebolt might just be 25, but the fourth would be for 100. It also helps to chip away at Redbeard when there are still 1 or even 2 souljars; if I'd only hit him when all 4 were gone, I'm sure it would have taken all night.

 

It IS still a grind, and I like some of the ideas here about making it more strategic or getting a boost if you sided with Miranda, but for anyone intimidated after reading this thread: if you managed Zepherine, you can definitely kill Redbeard.

[Rubytron]

OK wow, I've wound up fighting Redbeard with Jenelle and Nathalie and my main character, a shaman. Forget this, looks like I'm going loyalist! That's kind of annoying that it's pretty much impossible for me..

[Earth]

more is better, that's why it is good to have all sec. chars with you.

[Randomizer]

Shamans are pretty much the worst characters to eliminate soul jars. Sorceresses and range attacking fighters do best.

[Lilith]

Yeah, you don't absolutely have to have a full party of five in order to beat Redbeard, but you definitely want more than one non-shaman.

[bortbortbort]

Never finished the game because of this fight. I can say, without hyperbole, it's the least fun and most tedious thing I've ever done in a videogame.

[Earth]

you don't need to fight against redbeard.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Never finished the game because of this fight. I can say, without hyperbole, it's the least fun and most tedious thing I've ever done in a videogame.

Spoken like someone who has never played the chocobo racing and lightning dodging minigames in Final Fantasy 10. That said, Redbeard is possibly the most tedious video game thing that is actually a major plot point, and not really optional. (i.e. you don't have to fight him, but that's a plot decision that gets you a different ending, not a minigame you can choose to ignore.)

[malignant]

I've pretty much given up on this fight. I just want to see the rebellion ending so I changed the following variables in z2rbeard2.txt :

set_level(ME,1);

change_max_health(ME,1);

set_boss_level(ME,3);

 

Didnt seem to do anything. Next was setting the difficulty level to Casual but till got whipped. Really disgusted by Redbeard at this point. What variables do I need to change so that he is dead with just one hit ?

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

i tried changing the stats for random objects to give +20 for strength and endurance and others but it didn't really help. to call it fair I was getting bored of it so i didn't follow through with it for too long. mabe soon i'll get back into the groove

[Jerakeen]

Try making the soul jars easier to kill.

[AlphaDuck]

Just finished this fight, thought I would share my experience with you guys. I played on torment difficulty, shadowwalker main character. I had read this thread before I started the fight, and before any of my secondary character side quests had came along yet, which helped a lot. I sided with my companions in all their quests so I had 5 for this fight. If I hadn't read this thread I'm sure I would have gone against them in those quests since they are all a bunch of whiners. Especially Shima.

 

But anyways, I had mostly been preparing for this fight all game, which is maybe why it was way easier than I had anticipated after reading this thread. The fight from start to finish took about one hour, and that includes having to restart once about 10 minutes in because he killed 2 of my guys in one turn and they were the only ones with res scrolls.

 

My setup was: Sevilin specced into full dexterity build, middle and left skill trees. All of the best ranged gear I gave to him, all enchanted with dexterity. I sent him into one room by himself to poke away at jars. All he really needs is about 5 speed potions so he can attack twice a turn. He outranges the soul jars so they cant retaliate.

 

Rest of the party went into other room and lured Big Red in there with them. Both shadowwalkers specced into ranged dexterity builds, with the casters having middle and right support style builds, mostly since aoe spells are pretty useless for this fight. Janels call of wind was really nice, but I think I got that from a staff or something. Everyone (except Jannel) would hit the jars if there were any in that room, and when there wasnt they'd all focus on redbeard. Usually there was about 1 jar alive in sevilins room and any that popped up in the other room went down quick. Janel's job was mostly heals, dispells, summons, and buffing everyone.

 

Important thing is to keep redbeard in a corner. Wand of attraction as well as shamans call of wind are useful for putting him where you want him. His aoe's usually never hit more than one of my guys. Everyone had a summoning wand or something like it, so I had a constant stream of meatshields to keep him in his corner. Once you get him where you want him the fight becomes a breeze. He leaps out sometimes but then you can just use knockback to put him back in his place.

[Jerakeen]

A good summary of a successful strategy, AlphaDuck. If you don't mind, I'll link directly to this post from the FAQ.

[adpdl]

Avadon is a great game. Interesting, well written, a good pace, and an enjoyable combat (and loot) system.

 

Except this f*!#-@g final battle against Redbeard ruins the whole experience ! Even with the cheats I couldn't find the patience to beat the Keeper.

 

I really enjoyed Avadon, but the final boss fight is one of the worst I've ever seen. It got me frustrated like few games have before.

 

Please, Mr Vogel, no more Redbeard-like battles.

[Kreador]

It is an optional battle. You can complete the game without choosing to fight Redbeard.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

It is an optional battle. You can complete the game without choosing to fight Redbeard.

This argument has been hashed out on the forums before: Yes, Redbeard is optional, but the game presents staying loyal to Avadon and overthrowing him as two equally viable options, a la Geneforge. The former is easy and anticlimactic, the latter is incredibly frustrating. You can avoid the fight, but it means abruptly switching over to the ending path you previously didn't want.

[adpdl]

Originally Posted By: Othar Trygvassen: Gentleman

Quote:

It is an optional battle. You can complete the game without choosing to fight Redbeard.

This argument has been hashed out on the forums before: Yes, Redbeard is optional, but the game presents staying loyal to Avadon and overthrowing him as two equally viable options, a la Geneforge. The former is easy and anticlimactic, the latter is incredibly frustrating. You can avoid the fight, but it means abruptly switching over to the ending path you previously didn't want.

Exactly. I think I would have preferred not to have the choice at all.

I played the game on normal difficulty and found the game very well balanced. Not difficult, nonetheless rewarding. I really don't understand the raison d'etre of this final fight. I found it unfair and inconsistent considering the rest of the game, otherwise an excellent one.

[Den]

Still working on the final fight, but did anyone else notice that you can charm the soul jars so they fight Redbeard? It at least keeps one busy while you work at the second in a room... haven't got Redbeard to fight them yet!

[Lord Huge of Oregano]

Hi. I'm relatively new to spiderweb games. I started playing Avadon about 3 weeks ago and I just ordered Avernum 6, and I must say I am very impressed. They remind me of the old RPGs from the 1980s when graphics were low, so games had to have great stories to hook in.

 

I really enjoyed this end fight with Redbeard (NO I AM NOT A MASOCIST… well maybe a little). Too often in modern games the end fight is just a long, brutal slugfest against an opponent with a million hit points and no brain, but this final battle really made you think. In fact, I’m pretty sure that he has less hit points than Zephyrine which was a much harder fight until I learned to cheat. I kept remembering the old Nintendo games where the final boss was always invincible until you hit them with a special arrow or caught a specific bubble and then wailed on them for a while. You had to prepare from the begining and role-play wanting to take his place, gathering your allies around you.

 

My first battle against Redbeard went horribly! All my character’s were dead before I even thought to hit the two switches and look for the soul jars. I kept wondering when my attacks would do damage to him again. I spent the next 6 fights against him just experimenting and observing. Seeing how many attacks on average it took each of my characters to kill one soul jar. How much damage their attacks did to Redbeard with 1, 2, 3 or 4 jars (he takes no damage by the way with 4 soul jars!). On the 8th fight I beat him on normal. 2 more tries and I beat him on Torment.

 

I won’t lie to any of you who read this, it is a tough battle, but it was no tougher than it had to be. It was just epic enough to give a real sense of accomplishment (as much as a computer game can offer I guess), but it wasn’t frustratingly so, let alone impossible.

Here are some things I learned during this fight that may help you beat him easier.

 

1) Prepare. You will need lots of health, recovery, speed and battle elixirs, res and group heal scrolls, recovery crystals and fire, ice, corruption and calling wands. I didn’t need too many other items, including vitality potions, but I did save some charges on the attraction rod which did help. Curing brews didn’t seem that helpful since they only cure one affliction on the character taking it and Redbeard hits all of your players at once with multiple afflictions. I gave the scarab that cures mental afflictions to first Blademaster, the teleport to Natalie, and the fire, ice, dark bolt and major aid to Jenell. The rest I spread around.

 

2) Be faithful to your companions (simper fidelis). Remember that this is a Role Playing Game. You can’t kiss up to Redbeard and ignore your friends the whole time and then all of sudden think “Hey, I want to be the Keeper too.” You will most likely need all four of your companions to beat Redbeard on Torment level (I did it with 3 on Normal, but I wouldn’t recommend it).

 

3) Once Redbeard gets 3-4 Soul Jars, leave him alone. Every attack which does less than 20 points of damage to him could lower a soul jars life by 25-50%, so focus your attention on them. I found that keeping Redbeard in the main room attacking 1-2 summoned creatures while my characters sat in the soul jar rooms saved me a lot of heals and res scrolls. Jenell can heal them and keep them alive long enough to keep him happy, but if they die they are easy to replace. I’ve heard of some people who say keep him in a soul jar room in one of the corners, which sounds awesome if you can do it. If not, at least keep him away. I couldn’t do it either. He kept getting out and hitting half my people with his AOE attacks which terrified them and messed up my turn order rhythm. I used less heals and res scrolls keeping him in the main room above the soul jar rooms.

 

4) DO NOT kill soul jars one-by-one. If you can’t kill a soul jar in one turn with only 2 characters (in both rooms) then forget about it. I have seen him a couple of times summon 2 soul jars before my characters had a chance to even attack him. You need to kill all 4 of the soul jars at once and still have character actions left over to hit Redbeard before he starts summoning more. To this, first split up your characters (this may take some experimentation on your part) such that you can get all 4 soul jars down to just a little bit of life AND such that the first two characters to act right after Redbeard has his turn are in separate rooms and can kill both soul jars in one turn (again experiment with how close to zero you can get them without killing them and memorize the turn order).

 

For me, I put Shima and Natalie in one room and my blademasters with Jenell in the other. Natalie was great at killing jars and could use firestorm to assist the other room when needed. Jenell and Shima had the highest dex, but did the least amount of damage to Redbeard, so this was perfect. They would finish off the soul jars leaving my blademasters and Natalie about 3 full turns to pound on Redbeard before he got his soul jars back up.

 

Fire and ice wands work well (but not great) on soul jars, but they are immune to all other magical attacks (including Jenell’s so she should stick with javelins). Physical damage works as well, but if you engage them in melee, be prepared to heal… a lot as they have blade shield at all times.

 

5) Once Redbeard has no Soul Jars (including the first few rounds of combat), beat on him mercilessly. Even though he heals 300 damage after the first stage, you can get him down to 50% or less health before he summons his first soul jar (putting him at about 75-80% after his first heal). If you are hasted and battle furied (take your first pots before you talk to him and keep taking them when needed) you should be able to get 2-3 attacks per turn. If you left him in the main room your fighters can shadow step or berserker’s leap to close on him fast. Natalie and Jenell can hit him with spells and wands from a great distance, so keep them there. If you have skills that are still recovering, use those recovery pots or elixirs BEFORE you kill the soul jars). Fire, Ice and Corruption will damage him while he has very few soul jars.

 

One of his AOE attacks causes terror, so make sure that the first blademaster to act after him has his Warrior’s Focus active and is equipped with the scarab to cure mental afflictions. He can then cure terror hopefully before their turn so that they can do some damage as well.

 

As soon as he summons his third soul jar… RUN! If you are having trouble doing more than 20 damage to him per attack after he summons 2 jars, run then (it will take longer depending on your character builds and equipment, but shouldn’t be impossible). Use your summoned creatures to slow him down, or if you are a complete jerk like me you can run whoever takes his fancy into a corner and res them into a soul jar room after they die (way to take one for the team soldier!). Once he is happily killing off your summoned fodder all by himself again, focus on those soul jars (go back to 3). Rinse and repeat until Redbeard is dead (which takes about an hour on Torment).

 

 

Now, there may be some character builds or storylines that make this impossible. For example, if your characters are all level 20 or below, good luck even killing the wayfarer! I did ALL of the optional quests and fights so my characters were level 30 well before this point. I also maxed out their battle and power skills and didn’t put too much into the utility skills (except Jenell who could summon drakes), so my characters had the offensive capability to put some hurt on Redbeard during those short moments when he was vulnerable. AOE and defensive skills are not very effective on him.

 

Again, this was a great game, so don’t let this last fight bring you down. It is, in my opinion, a challenging and climatic end to a rich story driven RPG. Now I’m going to try the much harder task of ending the game as a Heart of Avadon (I’ve never been a good subordinate)...

 

any tips?

[Randomizer]

You can do the fight onTorment without Jenell.

 

Use summons so your party can attack at range to avoid area of effect mental attacks.

 

Welcome to Spiderweb Software. Please leave your sanity at the door. Otherwise Redbeard will take it.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Lord Huge of Oregano

Now I’m going to try the much harder task of ending the game as a Heart of Avadon (I’ve never been a good subordinate)...

any tips?

You can work against Redbeard as much as you like, as long as Redbeard doesn't find out about it. Killing Duke Gryfyn and giving Redbeard the information about Dheless from Castle Vebeaux may help your chances of being appointed as a Heart.