G2 Remake Kickstarter page is up

[Mechalibur]

To be fair, I don't think there was any indication the serviles knew about Thrackerzod's crew. Although how he set up a correspondence with Yu-La on the other side of Sucia, I have no idea.

[Aoslare]

Yu-La doesn't make any effort to hide the fact that she met other Shapers, nor their location.  That fact that neither the other Sholai, nor the nearby serviles (the nearby very inquisitive and highly cautious serviles) would ever get a clue about this, even if she didn't go out of her way to say so, seems weird.  Thrackerzod is also so close geographically to Masha's group, and in uncontested territory the Takers can easily surveil.

 

It's not impossible for them to be completely undiscovered there... it just seems unlikely and isn't really explained.  Whereas every other group is organically placed and feels integrated into the whole scenario.

[Amira The Hot Potato]

1. Where in the Geneforge series does it mention flying creations besides the drakons?

 

2. Will anything come of that vial quests?

 

3. Ok so the wingbolts were briefly mentioned but does that mean shapers are actually making them they way they make, say fyoras? If not, I feel theres a chance we still might not see them until GF4 again. But according to what I heard Jeff say on Steam, GF3-5 remakes won't come out for quite awhile because he wants to do Avernum 4 remake

 

4. Can we talk about the splash screen? I'm assuming it's Barzahl creating a drakon but is it a specific one or a generic one? I can't remember if all the named Drakons use to be drayks.

Edited February 9 by Amira The Hot Potato

[alhoon]

I really want a GF3 remake. If there was one Geneforge game that needs a touch-up, it was that one. 

GF3 presents the Shapers as bad ... and for most of the game the Rebels as homicidal, nihilist madwomen that want to see the world burn. The only reason I found that would convince a Shaper-student to go for the Rebels after they kill his classmates and his rebel-teacher betrays him and tries to kill him, and after all the horrors the rebels put him through... is lust for power. GF3 sells the rebels very badly. GF3 is Takers on steroids after they kill your friends and teachers - except one that betrays you. 

[Mechalibur]

There are so many ways G3 could be improved with the remake treatment. Not sure how much of the story Jeff would be willing to change, though. Most of the improvements in Mutagen and Infestation are gameplay-related rather than story-related.

[Randomizer]

GF3 will no longer require so many trips to transfer items between islands thanks to the ink bag.

 

I wonder if some new NPCs from GF2- Infestation will appear?

[Aoslare]

Jeff has acknowledged a lot in the last ~8 years that G3 wasn't well received, "suffered from complacency" on his part, and that the repetitive story was part of that.  I don't expect radical changes, but he has brought it up basically every time the G3 remake comes up.

 

I dunno.  Maybe it will just focus more on Greta and Alwan, and less on all the NPCs, who besides Khyryk pretty much universally seemed like terrible jerks.

[ultra112]

I'm more leaning on to a bit more radical change tbh

[alhoon]

2 hours ago, ultra112 said:

I'm more leaning on to a bit more radical change tbh

I don't think we will get a radical change. 

But some good rebels thrown in the mix would be a welcome addition. You know in those extra zones and quests. 

What was the name of the rebel in the 2nd island? The guy with the anger issues that punches a useless shaper on that island? 

He and his buddies were sitting in the swamp getting killed by monsters Litalia's spawners (and Litalia herself) was throwing at them and he was angry with the Shapers for not doing more to protect them. 
Litalia's approach? "We still throw monsters at you but we will give you cannisters so you can fight back the monsters." and the guy ... joins the rebels?! With glee in fact not "what a horrible situation, but if it is between a few of us becoming monsters to save you my brothers and all of us dying, we will do it. Alas... I hope I will get to kill that evil witch!" That would be a more believable reaction. The "Oh! Jolly!!! Shaper toys so we can join the monsters that are killing our friends!!!!" is ?!?!?!?!?

[ultra112]

I mean almost all aspects of G3 was weak compare to the other 5 games, so I wouldn't be surprised if radical changes were to happen along with having a longer development time as well.

[Amira The Hot Potato]

4 hours ago, alhoon said:

I don't think we will get a radical change. 

But some good rebels thrown in the mix would be a welcome addition. You know in those extra zones and quests. 

What was the name of the rebel in the 2nd island? The guy with the anger issues that punches a useless shaper on that island? 

He and his buddies were sitting in the swamp getting killed by monsters Litalia's spawners (and Litalia herself) was throwing at them and he was angry with the Shapers for not doing more to protect them. 
Litalia's approach? "We still throw monsters at you but we will give you cannisters so you can fight back the monsters." and the guy ... joins the rebels?! With glee in fact not "what a horrible situation, but if it is between a few of us becoming monsters to save you my brothers and all of us dying, we will do it. Alas... I hope I will get to kill that evil witch!" That would be a more believable reaction. The "Oh! Jolly!!! Shaper toys so we can join the monsters that are killing our friends!!!!" is ?!?!?!?!?

ahh that would be Lankan. I usually ended up killing him except one playthrough

[Aoslare]

Good people in general would be a welcome addition.  The rebels maybe get it worse in this regard (Lankan, Hoge, Agatha... ugh), although OTOH Greta is notably less dopey than Alwan in G3.  Also, the rebel quests forcing you to do dumb things like kill Khyryk, there's gotta be a way to mitigate that.

 

It doesn't help that both of the faction big-deal figureheads, Akhari Blaze and Lord Rahul, have absolutely zero characterization and are basically just cardboard boxes that say "i'm in charge" on them.

[alhoon]

5 hours ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

 

It doesn't help that both of the faction big-deal figureheads, Akhari Blaze and Lord Rahul, have absolutely zero characterization and are basically just cardboard boxes that say "i'm in charge" on them.

I liked them both... Someone has to be in charge. 

[Aoslare]

Yes.  And to their credit, they both have, um... names.

[mikeprichard]

On 2/10/2024 at 10:33 PM, Mechalibur said:

There are so many ways G3 could be improved with the remake treatment. Not sure how much of the story Jeff would be willing to change, though. Most of the improvements in Mutagen and Infestation are gameplay-related rather than story-related.

Both Jeff and Mariann mentioned several times on the recent Feb 10 Steam G2 demo stream that G3 was the weakest of the series, and is due for a more significant overhaul in the remake. How far that actually goes obviously remains to be seen. (In response to my and others' points in the chat, they were similarly hyped for the upcoming A4-A6 remakes.)

[ClawBug]

9 hours ago, mikeprichard said:

Both Jeff and Mariann mentioned several times on the recent Feb 10 Steam G2 demo stream that G3 was the weakest of the series, and is due for a more significant overhaul in the remake. How far that actually goes obviously remains to be seen. (In response to my and others' points in the chat, they were similarly hyped for the upcoming A4-A6 remakes.)

but I don't think A6 need a remake

[Aoslare]

I mean, it would be weird to remake the first five games and not the sixth.

[Randomizer]

By the time Jeff gets to the last game the original will have trouble running the latest computers without an emulator or only on Windows cpmpaiblity mode.

[mikeprichard]

And as Jeff himself realizes, even the current remakes as of today are a bit clunky with e.g. greater than 1080p resolutions etc. He could keep remaking the remakes every 10-15 years and always have something to do to keep all of his games - even the more relatively recent ones like A6 - mostly current from a technical standpoint.

[alhoon]

16 hours ago, Dry Peak, Soggy Bottom said:

Yes.  And to their credit, they both have, um... names.

🤣😂

I came to this reply ready to disagree and point out something I remember from them... 

and then I couldn't remember anything that sets them apart than them being there. 

I would say this to their defense: They also give you quests! 

[alhoon]

33 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

By the time Jeff gets to the last game the original will have trouble running the latest computers without an emulator or only on Windows cpmpaiblity mode.

By the time Jeff gets to A6, we don't know if windows would still be the main thing. With remakes and new games, and hoping that GF3 will get a remake before they switch to Avernum, A6 remake would be in 10 years. 

[mikeprichard]

28 minutes ago, alhoon said:

By the time Jeff gets to A6, we don't know if windows would still be the main thing. With remakes and new games, and hoping that GF3 will get a remake before they switch to Avernum, A6 remake would be in 10 years. 

I think Jeff mentioned on the Feb 10 stream that A4 might be the next remake before G3 (all post-QW3 of course), though I could be misremembering and getting that backwards. Whatever the exact order, he seems very keen to remake G3, A4, and A5 especially (as well as A6).

Edited February 12 by mikeprichard

[Jawaj]

It also seemed on that stream unclear whether Qw3 or A4/G3 comes first. QW3 fits the general pattern of course, but I could also see Jeff wanting to save presumably his last all-new game for a little later.

Edited February 13 by Jawaj

[alhoon]

5 hours ago, Jawaj said:

It also seemed on that stream unclear whether Qw3 or A4/G3 comes first. QW3 fits the general pattern of course, but I could also see Jeff wanting to save presumably his last all-new game for a little later.

 

I ... am not sure that pushing QW3 a couple years back is the good business choice. People would expect the game. I know I have bought the other two Queen's Vlish games and wait for the final one to start playing them! 

Also, I can't be the only one that sees "Queen's Vlish" as the name of the game. 

[mikeprichard]

I am "pretty sure" (exuding unjustified confidence here) Jeff is going to stick to the plan of finishing Queen's Vlish 3 next, before the pack of remaining G3-5/A4-6 remakes, and I don't remember him saying anything to the contrary on the Feb 10 stream at least.

[Aoslare]

A4 before G3 would seem a little weird given that original G3 came first anyway.  But maybe he's been hearing from Avernum-specific fans and realizing it's already been a while since the A3 remake?

 

Man.  I'm just remembering now what a shock it was to hear that he was actually making A4 in the first place.

[mikeprichard]

There is a 50% chance my memory of what Jeff said about the exact planned remake order is 100% incorrect... he and Mariann did seem equally ready to bring both A4 and G3 up to their more recent standards, though, and he went on at some length about A4 and A5 both needing an update.

As a side note (since I've thoroughly derailed this topic already...), to my great disappointment, he did confirm the A4-A6 remakes will not convert to the separate world map exploration style which I believe is used in all his other games. That's by far what I disliked most about A4-A6 - placing the entire map on a single "zoomed-in" scale killed the sense of the vast scope of the world for me, with locations that were supposed to be 100 miles apart per in-game lore appearing to be about 100 meters apart instead. But I understand that would be an even much bigger overhaul than he's able/willing to take on for the remakes, and for some reason unfathomable to me, apparently some players prefer the zoom. Kind of a moot point regardless, since he'll be taking my money for all remakes almost on day one anyway.

[Aoslare]

A4 was really the one where the continuous-map was the biggest problem, because it just destroyed the sense of scale of the earlier games completely in a way that was kind of absurd.  A5 was fine because it was new areas designed for the new map style, and A6 somehow didn't seem as bad either.

 

He's probably gonna have to redo the A4 map anyway, unless he plans to keep elevation out of the game.  So maybe there can be a compromise?  Like, take one of the 18 A4 underground zones filled to the brim with unnecessary chitrachs and relocate it to be in between Blosk and Dharmon so they aren't 3 feet away from each other anymore? :P

 

[Jawaj]

Jeff sounded in the stream like he was aware of A4 (and G3's) issues and seemed passionate about improving the games a lot. So I'm hopeful for them.

 

As for the continuous world...taken on its own merits setting continuity aside I don't think it's necessarily a worse (or better) design just different. A certain measure of claustrophobia isn't unfitting for caves and it does allow for more detailed up-close overworld content that the zoomed-out outdoors can't really do. That said the aforementioned scale crunch with a pre-existing world is an issue. Hopefully that can be smoothed out and improved.

Edited February 13 by Jawaj

[mikeprichard]

Yep, we'll see - and agree with Slarty on A5 not being as "problematic" with the scale issue, as I also felt when I first played it. In that one, at least you don't have the established A1-A3 world to measure against, since you're traveling through entirely new locations. When another user on the stream asked about the world map style in A4-A6, Jeff responded, and I immediately wrote "awwwww...", he said "Welp, I've already succeeded in disappointing people with a game that's years away." He did mention his main reason for originally changing the style in A4 was to keep his creativity flowing with a design shakeup. As you all say, though, even though he's planning for now to stick with the basic design, I do hope he can smooth out some of the rougher edges.

(As a side note to the side note, if he wanted to take the 18(00) zones filled with chitrachs and make them... not filled with chitrachs, I wouldn't complain.)

[Amira The Hot Potato]

I know it will be awhile but I am excited that A4 is getting update considering that fact that my PC can't seem to run it properly right now(if anyone has a fix for it, would be great)

[Edgwyn]

I wish A4 would get the map style from A1-3, but I am just happy that A4 is going to get remade, even though we are talking 3-5 years from now

 

[Aoslare]

The concept of the continuous world map isn't a bad one.  I know Jeff was inspired by Ultima V (and thereafter) where there is a very deliberate shifting of scale as you move between different continguous overworld areas -- one minute a building takes up the whole screen, one screen later it's a pile of trees, then multiple mountaintops.  And that had a certain style to it.  A4 kind of shifted scales too, but the art unfortunately didn't shift with it so it felt weird rather than artistic.

 

It also isn't that different in many ways from the "separate zones, world map is abstract and not walkable" method of Geneforge (and Avadon) -- you could take Geneforge's zones, stitch them together, and (except for having some gaps) you'd more or less have what A4 did.  But Geneforge's world map does lend a sense of distance and scale that is missing when you stitch them together.

 

 

I don't know how to solve this for A4 without redoing the map entirely -- or at least parts of it.  Blosk and Dharmon are IMO by far the worst offender, but there are other spots that might be worth the TLC.

 

[Randomizer]

The whole Eastern Gallery is too small compared to the first trilogy maps. You can buff the party at a town's gate and fight your way almost to the next town before the buffs are gone. It threw off the original game balance.

 

The problem is that making the scale correct for the Eastern Gallery makes the map stretched out to north and south of it.

[Aoslare]

The Eastern Gallery already has enough space for 800 screens of chitrachs.  The settlements are not adjacent.  It's in much better shape than the Great Cave.

 

There were a lot of things in A4 that threw off the balance -- Divinely Touched and other traits/races, and Parry, in particular -- but "getting free casts of buffs which only cost a few spell points anyway" was not really one of them.

[ultra112]

I have asked Jeff regarding adding new weapon types for future releases and here's what he said

"Anything is possible. It would take a major graphics revision, which we're thinking about, but it would take time.

The important thing is: Why? It would be a cosmetic change, sure. But I need to ask: What would this new melee weapon do? What does it add to the game that is already there?

Geneforge 2 has a lot more variety in terms of the sorts of weapons you find and how they are improved. They're still swords, but there are some swords with far more unique effects. You might find something much closer to what you want."

[Randomizer]

Jeff added several new weapons over the original and last remake so you might want to really wait and see before trying to come up with new ones. Plus Geneforge 3 original had augmentation of items to give them other abilities.

 

Now missile weapons are still pretty much what we've had in previous games so there is room for new stuff there,

[ultra112]

yeah, but unfortunately we couldn't craft artifact weapons for some reason

[ultra112]

Also it seems that a lot of people have checked out the demo

https://twitter.com/spiderwebsoft/status/1758311882015064317?t=4CSWgNzmkUCRby0UFwZ30w&s=19

[Mechalibur]

Kind of crazy to think how many unique items will be in the G5 remake by the time it rolls around.

[alhoon]

2000 is... huge deal for GF2?! 

I am.... disappointed. I don't want to rain in Jeff's parade, but I expected like 15,000 as a good number. 

[mikeprichard]

Yeah, I'm shocked he considers 2000 downloads to be a big deal, even recognizing a) it's just a demo and b) his niche is and always has been very much a niche. Of course, this isn't intended to knock him or the game - it's just educational! I'm sure his actual games sell a lot more than 2000, even if only accounting for Steam sales (I always buy on GOG).

[Jawaj]

Demos generally aren't as popular as they used to be in the age of Steam/GOG sales, convenient digital downloads even at full price, and an overload of games. I would also guess a good number of these are new customers or casual fans - sure some Spiderweb loyalists will play through the demo to get an initial taste, but a lot are already sold on buying the game anyway and will wait (I did download it myself but only to mess around for 45 minutes, barely did anything).

 

Also this was released at the same time as hundreds of other demos for upcoming games. And if 2000 is high by small indie standards nowadays it probably translates to Steam's algorithm promoting the game more.

Edited February 21 by Jawaj

[alhoon]

I honestly hope Steam promotes this game more. I am shocked that these games are not selling better. I am not saying they are like the AAA games, and they are a bit niche, but I have seen Indie games I enjoyed much less, that had much less ... magic in them sell well. 

[ultra112]

I suppose Jeff could send a demo to Alpha Beta Gamer, these guys specializes in bringing underrated indie game to the public

[Aoslare]

Folks, from all available evidence, the games are selling great.

 

Demo downloads -- especially for a game that hasn't actually been released yet -- are very, very, very different from actual game sales.  As Jawaj points out, most people don't bother with demos anymore because (1) they're already having 3000 different games thrust at them by platforms like Steam, and (2) price points are pretty low.

 

Spiderweb has shared a little bit about their sales numbers in the distant past.  We know they get a lot more sales now than they did then.  And Jeff described Mutagen as one of their best-performing games in a long time.

 

You can also extrapolate some ballpark sales numbers by looking at numbers of reviews on big platforms like Steam.  This won't be even remotely precise, but it should relieve any concerns that nobody is buying the games.  Clearly, lots of people are.  (And remember that they are on a whole pile of different platforms, not just Steam.)

[ultra112]

Fella the new version of the beta is out

Spoiler

it also came with a new character model of the Drakon

 

[Amira The Hot Potato]

Can't wait to see it next month!

[ultra112]

On 2/20/2024 at 11:26 AM, ultra112 said:

Fella the new version of the beta is out

  Hide contents

it also came with a new character model of the Drakon

 

Spoiler

Also it came with an updated character model of the Glaahk as well

 

[TriRodent]

Re the demo: Also one thing to consider is that the demo downloads probably aren't from the Kickstarter backers as they'll be getting the full game next month. Some certainly, but I wouldn't imagine that it is a high percentage.  Hopefully they turn into a decent number of sales for SW.