Avernum V

[moonear]

Quote:

Ahh, but you didn't pay him to read a spellbook, you paid him an ungodly sum of money to walk you through the incantation so you could cast it yourself. I don't pay my math professor to tell me which textbook I need and to "figure it out", I pay him for examples and demonstrations so I know what i'm doing. Petrie definately knew how to cast the spell.

Having a magical object (spellbook) doesn't make you the original author/creator. Lots of magical stuff is collected out of interest (think gun collecting as a hobby among hunters). Granting access to magical stuff which you do not know how to use (rune reading ability lacking?) for $$ can be for greed/further one's own abilities to further acquire new objects for yor collection.... (think of a price of admission).

So, I am no sold that Petrie actually knew what to do. It may be that Petrie could ape/parrot the instructions but didn't create them.

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Tin:

Quote:

Ahh, but you didn't pay him to read a spellbook, you paid him an ungodly sum of money to walk you through the incantation so you could cast it yourself. I don't pay my math professor to tell me which textbook I need and to "figure it out", I pay him for examples and demonstrations so I know what i'm doing. Petrie definately knew how to cast the spell.

Having a magical object (spellbook) doesn't make you the original author/creator. Lots of magical stuff is collected out of interest (think gun collecting as a hobby among hunters). Granting access to magical stuff which you do not know how to use (rune reading ability lacking?) for $$ can be for greed/further one's own abilities to further acquire new objects for yor collection.... (think of a price of admission).

So, I am no sold that Petrie actually knew what to do. It may be that Petrie could ape/parrot the instructions but didn't create them.

A mage parroting stuff? I don't think they do that. They're too arrogant.

Also, I haven't gotten round to finishing Avernum 2 yet, but I swear that both the Empire and Avernum didn't know how to make quickfire. So how would Petrie have a Vahnatai Tome ?

- Archmagus Micael

[moonear]

Quote:

A mage parroting stuff? I don't think they do that. They're too arrogant.

Agreed. Igave a number of scenarios in which it ws possible for Petrie to have the spellbook but not be the author. Some weren't thought through for plausibility.

However, I could also see a mage quoting an astronomical value for something that mage feels has little value to test an adveturer's stupidity/taunt them. and quickfire could be considered to have little value because it is so uncontrollable (although thats what doors are for)

[Erika Maroonmark]

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:
For Avernum 5 I wish there was some kind of food (?) that restores your energy for mages and priests.

What I'm glad of is the editor– the original Exile 1 editor didn't restore your spell points! XD
-Erika "only cheats when she REALLY has to… really!" Maroonmark

[Mister Fox]

I have some nice ideas for A5, I don't know whether or not any of them have been posted yet as I was trying to read through all the posts and my short attention span got the best of me...

 

First of all, on the surface a new race could be discovered. A race of anthropomorphic vulpines (or lupines if more people prefer wolves) could have remained well hidden in the denser forests of Valorim, remaining unknown to the other races in their secret forest cities. This could be part of a plot (maybe the Empire considers their natural stealth a threat and sends most of them to Avernum, or the Empire aspires to slash and burn their forests and sends them to Avernum when they resist). They could have bonuses to speed and lethal blow. I'm not sure what a fair experience penalty would be. It's time for a new race, since the original Exile/Avernum 2 have been added as playable. The vahnatai aren't entirely plausible, so why not continue the somewhat furry theme started by existance and playablility of Nephils and Sliths?

 

The return of crossbows as a heavier but more damaging alternative to bows would be nice, or perhaps a form of early firearm (flintlock or matchlock pistols, hand cannons, muskets, match/flintlock rifles and such).

 

DUAL WIELDING! DWing was the coolest aspect of the Exile series combat system and I'm sure I'm not the only Exile/Avernum fan who misses it.

 

A starting skill set that includes spear use, for the pole characters. Lancer or something like that since Soldier and Berserker both favor swords.

 

Grenade-like weapons: ceramic or glass containers with harmful substances inside. Incendiary fluid, poison gas, acid, antimagic energy pulse, caltrops, etc.

 

Another possible playable race that already exists in the Exile/Avernum series (though I can't seem to remember which game they were in) are the fungal humanoid Swamp Folk. According to the encyclopedia, they are intelligent and have their own society. They are territorial but not hostile, and capable of using tools with moderate dexterity so it's possible they would make good party members. I don't know what racial bonuses or experience penalties would be most fitting for Swamp Folk.

[Igor]

I want boats back. Not being able to sail around was a definate minus in A4. Damn tentacle monsters ruin everybody's good time.

[Ephesos]

Can we please stop suggesting new races? They won't be implemented, ever. Particularly wolf-like things (I get the feeling Fox wanted to suggest werewolves).

[Mister Fox]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:
Can we please stop suggesting new races? They won't be implemented, ever. Particularly wolf-like things (I get the feeling Fox wanted to suggest werewolves).

I've never once submitted an idea for a future game for any company with the expectation that it'd be used, I just enjoy sharing with the rest of the fan base. Also, I at first suggested fox people/werefoxes and then added wolf people/werewolves for the people who like wolves more (since some consider foxes to be horrid pests, as lovely as they are). I post so other people can read what I think would be cool in A5 and say "Oh, that's neat" or "This fox guy is a weirdo and an idiot" depending on whether or not an idea is liked.

[Lurking Eyebeast]

Quote:

Jeff could come up with a lot of things, an undiscovered slith kingdom, a powerful magical being, a natural occourance such as a massive cave quake that disrupts order, etc.

I like the idea of a natural occourance that disrupts order.

EDIT: In fact, I am going to work on my BoE scenario called Cavequake Chaos.
Edit: Spelling error.

[Dolphin]

Though being original is difficult after 11 pages I'll add my two cents anyway.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

The way I currently picture Avernum 5 is:

 

i. In a whole new area of the underworld.

ii. On a much smaller scale, plot-wise. You have a major mission, but no monolithic power trying to blow up the world.

iii. More like Avernum 2 in details of storyline.

...

v. More talk and diplomacy.

...

 

- Jeff Vogel

If this is what A5 ends up being I'm happy for the most part. The exploration of new places would reintroduce the sense of discovering the unknown that was lacking in A5. A more in-depth plot giving it more of an A2 feel would be nice as well. As far as the main conflict goes I'd be happy with almost anything aside from Vahnatai. The boats were a very nice aspect of the early Avernums, as was the teleportation system in A4. Though I greatly prefer Avernum's engine I wouldn't mind A4's nearly as much if the graphics were distinctly different from those of Geneforge.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Mu:

Damn tentacle monsters ruin everybody's good time.

^_________^

[Delicious Vlish]

Quote:

Originally written by Mu:
I want boats back. Not being able to sail around was a definate minus in A4. Damn tentacle monsters ruin everybody's good time.

I beg your pardon.

[Reve]

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
I like the idea of a natural occorance that disrupts order.

EDIT: In fact, I am going to work on my BoE scenario called Cavequake Chaos.

Yeah what would happen if a cave quake opened up a tunnel to the ocean above, and parts of Avernum started flooding?

[Igor]

Quote:

Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

Quote:

Originally written by Mu:
I want boats back. Not being able to sail around was a definate minus in A4. Damn tentacle monsters ruin everybody's good time.

I beg your pardon.

Submarine tentacle monsters ruin everbody's good time. Vlish are fine.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Reve:
Yeah what would happen if a cave quake opened up a tunnel to the ocean above, and parts of Avernum started flooding?

I actually planned a BoE scenario based on that exact premise once. It also involved aliens from another dimension who had shown up to cause trouble for no particularly clear reason, and fighting Garzahd in the form of a Crystal Soul.

It's probably for the best that I didn't finish it.

[Igor]

It probably was for the best, Thuryl. For all of us.

[Lilith]

Oh, and there was a giant fungus the size of a city which could only be killed by setting off quickfire inside it. Actually, that was probably one of the better parts of the scenario.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Oh, and there was a giant fungus the size of a city which could only be killed by setting off quickfire inside it. Actually, that was probably one of the better parts of the scenario.

That actually doesn't sound half-bad. I'd like to hear the backstory, though...

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:
That actually doesn't sound half-bad. I'd like to hear the backstory, though...

Well, it's a little off-topic, but since I've already started...

It's set in an alternate universe where the heroes of Exile 2 failed to close the unstable rift after destroying the portal in the Portal Fortress (the player doesn't actually know this at the beginning of the scenario -- it's a big reveal toward the end). Now, if you've ever tried not closing the rift, you know the description you get just before you die mentions massive cavequakes devastating both Exile and the Empire.

The quakes open huge cracks in the earth, causing the oceans to literally pour out and flood large regions of Exile, which was fairly bad for the surface but even worse for Exile. The quakes also released deeply-buried spores of a highly aggressive fungus that attacks from underground without warning (this was one of the neater technical tricks I put into the scenario -- wandering monsters set to "attack immediately", so that as soon as they were generated the party would be attacked without a chance to avoid the encounter. At least, it was neat in theory; it'd probably get annoying in practice.)

The Empire blamed Exile for the disaster and continued to wage war on it, still led by Garzahd (initially human, since Exile 2's party never survived long enough to kill him, but he comes back as a crystal soul after the scenario's party bumps him off). Also, there were, as previously mentioned, aliens, who'd managed to enter Exile through the dimensional rift created by the destruction of the portal, and were now trying to colonise it.

Essentially, the plot mirrored that of Exile 1 or 2, with the party dealing with three major threats (the fungus, the Empire and the aliens), and having a bunch of towns to save, NPCs to pick up and sidequests to do along the way. I should stress that the setting was very much an apocalyptic one; civilisation in Exile was reduced to a few scattered holdouts, and the first quest given to you in the scenario was to find a reliable source of food for your village.

Man. Talking about the scenario like this almost makes me want to actually make the damn thing.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Man. Talking about the scenario like this almost makes me want to actually make the damn thing.

Do it! You know you want to!

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Man. Talking about the scenario like this almost makes me want to actually make the damn thing.

Do it! You know you want to!

I also would like to play this scenario. (Or pretty much any scenario you'll make, considering your past record.)

[Lilith]

The main problem with making it is that it'd have to be a very large scenario, and my free time is limited. I'd rather work on something smaller in scope than start something massive and maybe never finish it. Besides, I've already got one BoA scenario in the works.

[Lurking Eyebeast]

Mine wouldn't be set in avernum because it would be far too big. I am setting it in a small group of caves south of Avernum.

 

Back onto the topic, maybe A5 should be set on the surface where Empress Prazac travels to Valorim to make peace with a huge rebellion and an evil necromancer of the huge rebellion claims that Prazac and him were swapped at birth and he becomes emporer. The new emporer (Who was NOT in the family at all) lets the rebels join the army so a new rebellion is formed by Prazac and most of the imperial army to turn the Empire from evil to good by Prazac becoming the Empress again and your party was hired by Prazac to fight against the Empire so that the rebellion will turn into the Empire again.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
an evil necromancer

NO! Not as a central character. Just NO. You know what that makes all of the enemies, right? You know how easy that is to justify with a weak plot?

And that plot's just a bit cliché. I doubt that the Empire would just hand over the throne to an obvious fake... since when has any Empire official dabbled in necromancy? Any official, ever?

[Radix Malorum Est Cupiditas]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
an evil necromancer

NO! Not as a central character. Just NO. You know what that makes all of the enemies, right? You know how easy that is to justify with a weak plot?

I want to make a well-written scenario with a thought out plot, with the main characters being five liches. Just to see your reaction.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:
I want to make a well-written scenario with a thought out plot, with the main characters being five liches. Just to see your reaction.

I look forward to seeing it. Then we'll just need three more signs of the apocalypse.

[Slawbug]

Well, Infernal used to have "666" in her name

[Major]

"The main problem with making it is that it'd have to be a very large scenario, and my free time is limited. I'd rather work on something smaller in scope than start something massive and maybe never finish it. Besides, I've already got one BoA scenario in the works."

 

I don't think it would have to be massive. Just have most of it flooded and maybe add a new cave?

Oh, and whats your new BoA scenario?

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Major:
Oh, and whats your new BoA scenario?

No comment.

Wait, that was a comment. Damn. Well, I'm still not telling, except to say that I am entirely unsure that it won't get me run out of the SW community on a rail.

[Thralni]

EDIT: Never mind. It was a stupid comment, born out of a misunderstanding and being overly blind.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
No comment.

Wait, that was a comment. Damn. Well, I'm still not telling, except to say that I am entirely unsure that it won't get me run out of the SW community on a rail.

Heh... that's the best kind, right?

[Lurking Eyebeast]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
an evil necromancer

NO! Not as a central character. Just NO. You know what that makes all of the enemies, right? You know how easy that is to justify with a weak plot?

And that plot's just a bit cliché. I doubt that the Empire would just hand over the throne to an obvious fake... since when has any Empire official dabbled in necromancy? Any official, ever?

It was not an Empire official, he was a rebel mage pretending to be the heir to the throne. I must have had something else on my mind when I posted because I can't think of any reason why I would suggest that he would be a necromancer. They would hand over the throne to him because they don't know that he is a powerful mage so they think the fake evidence he made using magic is real. And maybe like in A2, that could be like a major side quest because in A2 you had to kill Garzahd, destroy the portal and return the crystal souls. And maybe he should reveal his magical power after weakening the power of the whole army by employing giants, trogloytes, gazers, demons and undead to attack the Empire army until it is so weak that he could defeat the whole army because of the power of his minions (Giants, troglodytes, gazers, demons and undead.) I forgot why he reveals himself but I think I had a good reason. when you kill him you might find out that he is a member of an organization that is trying to destroy the Empire for some reason. Then it turns out that the organzation is a group of avernites who want reveng o the Empire for teleoprting them to Avernum. If this organization is just like the darkside Loyalists (whoever they are) the Darkside Loyalists changed their name. Or maybye I should just abandon the idea alltogether.

[Grain of Salt]

I shall not comment on the rest of the plotline, but please, please, please do not have a massive army made out of giants, trogodlytes, gazers, demons, and undead. We're really, really tired of all those things.

Massive hackfests are not good. And if you must, at least create original enemies

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
They would hand over the throne to him because they don't know that he is a powerful mage so they think the fake evidence he made using magic is real.

You know, I get the feeling that the Empire would still run the records by their mages before accepting a random claim to the throne.

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
employing giants, trogloytes, gazers, demons and undead to attack the Empire army until it is so weak that he could defeat the whole army because of the power of his minions (Giants, troglodytes, gazers, demons and undead.)

Trogs and giants working together? Gazers and... well, anything working together? Not going to work.

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
I forgot why he reveals himself but I think I had a good reason.

I should hope so.

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
Then it turns out that the organzation is a group of avernites who want reveng o the Empire for teleoprting them to Avernum. If this organization is just like the darkside Loyalists (whoever they are) the Darkside Loyalists changed their name.

But the Avernites already got revenge on the Empire. Many, many times. Then they got to save the Empire from the Vahnatai, which must've been an even better feeling (having former enemies indebted to you is incredibly satisfying).

You don't know who the Darkside Loyalists are, do you?

[Lurking Eyebeast]

Quote:

You dont know who the Darkside Loyalists are do you?

Well, if I had known who they were I wouldn't have written that down.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:
...It was not an Empire official, he was a rebel mage pretending to be the heir to the throne.
...

No emperor in history willingly gave up his throne to a guy with a piece of paper. The only way such a person could get a throne would be by leading a successful revolution against the emperor.

PS The rest of your scenario sounds too similar to Avernum 3. Unless what you are saying about monster plagues are just a background history for a smaller scenario in which you defeat the evil emperor.

Either way, if you haven't made any scenarios before, I'd suggest starting with something much smaller. Once you make a couple of good small scenarios you can start thinking of an epic of this magnitude.

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Zeviz:
No emperor in history willingly gave up his throne to a guy with a piece of paper.

Um - abdication?

- Archmagus Micael

[Dintiradan]

Superego: No, Dintiradan! Don't make a useless post with the sole purpose of repeating what everyone else has said! Instead, give advice on how to improve the scenario.

Id: Do it. Do it. You know you want to. Besides, that line is begging to be used.

Ego: (Click.)

 

--------------------

Giants, troglodytes, gazers, demons and undead. Oh my!

 

Seriously, choose something other than that for your first scenario. It appears to be far too large for a first try, and besides, plagues have been done before. Over and over and over again (See A3, A4, Undead Valley... and that's ignoring BoE).

 

Besides, Trogs and Giants hate each other. Play A3.

[Alorael at Large]

Make the mage a pretender with a wholly fabricated claim but great political and diplomatic skill and the best interests of the Empire at heart, though, and you have a more interesting story. Should your party support the mage, who would be a fine emperor if he actually had any ties to the throne, or the true (distant) heir who also has the best of intentions but far less acumen for rulership?

 

—Alorael, who adds his voice to those who do not like plagues. At all.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmagus Micael:

Quote:

Originally written by Zeviz:
No emperor in history willingly gave up his throne to a guy with a piece of paper.

Um - abdication?

- Archmagus Micael

Can anybody think of an example of an emperor who had willingly abdicated with no outside preassure just because somebody presented a better claim to the throne? Most abdications I can think of were prompted by a choice of "either you take off that crown, or we'll take it off together with your head".

[Archmagus Micael]

*cough, cough*

 

It's not the best example, but he did willingy abdicate, if only to change his mind a short while later.

 

- Archmagus Micael

[Student of Trinity]

There was a period — I'm afraid I forget just when — when Japanese Emperors routinely abdicated, as soon as their heirs were old enough to take over the many ceremonial duties. As evidently remains true today in many east Asian societies, unwritten rules of respect for seniority were more important than formal authority, and the ex-Emperor retained paramount dignity. The officially retired ex-Emperors therefore continued ruling the country, without the inconvenience of ceremonial duties, until death.

 

I wouldn't say this really counts, though.

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
I wouldn't say this really counts, though.

It still counts. Trust me. Zeviz didn't say it had to be in the right context.

- Archmagus Micael

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Archmagus Micael:

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
I wouldn't say this really counts, though.

It still counts. Trust me. Zeviz didn't say it had to be in the right context.

- Archmagus Micael

Yes I did.

Quote:

Originally written by Zeviz:
Can anybody think of an example of an emperor who had willingly abdicated with no outside preassure just because somebody presented a better claim to the throne?
...

However, the main reason I asked was general curiousity about abdications in history, so in that sence yours and SoT's posts contain exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

EDIT: SoT, did the whole "respect for parent" thing work out in practice for Japanese emperors? Or was the emperor's position mostly ceremonial anyway? (In Russian Empire, emperors often completely reversed the policies of their predesessors. In one case the father was even deposed by a coup led by his son.)

[Alorael at Large]

The emperor's power in Japan has varied greatly, but during the period of so-called cloistered rule the emperor had a fair amount of real authority. Retiring freed the emperor from his ceremonial role without actually requiring him to relinquish all power, although some devolved to the new emperor.

 

Parental respect had less to do with it than the fact that the retired emperor just didn't release the reins of power and everyone else continued to accept his (or her) authority.

 

—Alorael, who wonders if Drakey should "retire" in order to continue to rule with a better concealed iron fist.

[Student of Trinity]

This is one of several ways in which Ran was King Lear the way King Lear would have written it: in Japan, retirement was supposed to work out for a ruler.

 

I suspect Rosencrantz and Gildenstern are Dead might have been Hamlet's Hamlet. Any candidates for Macbeth's Macbeth? (Hmph; maybe, in fact, Macbeth; which puts Macbeth, and Macbeth, into peculiar sets.)

 

Or Othello's Othello?

[Lurking Eyebeast]

Maybe a massive cavequake should occour in Avernum, killing several people, causing chasms to appear everywhere due to the cave floors falling into the Vhanatai lands and undiscovered caves far below Avernum and destroying supplies. And the two tribes of Vhanatai that were once the Olgai Tribe, will fight wach other in Avernum, and the lack of supplies causes ordinary people to become bandits and steal from everyone.

[Ephesos]

*sigh*...

 

Quote:

Originally written by Aussieavernum:

Maybe a massive cavequake should occour in Avernum, killing several people,

With the magnitude you're describing, it would kill everybody. Those who lived would quickly starve.

 

Quote:

(continued):

causing chasms to appear everywhere due to the cave floors falling into the Vhanatai lands and undiscovered caves far below Avernum and destroying supplies.

So you want the entire cave system to collapse? Everything would die. The continents above Avernum would drop down a few feet, disrupting surface life. If the cave floors are falling all the way down to Vahnatai lands already, they'll have enough momentum to crush any undiscovered caves below.

 

It would destroy everything, not just supplies.

 

Quote:

(continued):

And the two tribes of Vhanatai that were once the Olgai Tribe, will fight wach other in Avernum,

No. Just no. If they've got tons upon tons of cave rock falling on them, they'll be dead before they can fight each other. And why would they start fighting one another?

 

Quote:

(make it stop):

and the lack of supplies causes ordinary people to become bandits and steal from everyone.

...

 

But they'll all be dead.

 

 

 

I really want this thread to die.

[Zeviz]

Aussieavernum, if you want that scenario idea to be more realistic, you could say that, instead of collapsing most of the caves, the quake cracked cave wall, opening a passage towards a new section of the cave system. (I suspect Jeff will do something like this for A5.) And a reason for food shortage could be a crop-killing mold whose spores were carried out of the new cave system (by wind, travellers, etc.) Finding a way to eliminate this mold could be a major quest in your scenario.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

...

I really want this thread to die.

Then don't post in it.

 

If you don't want Blades to die, don't laugh off potential new designers every time they come up with an idea. Instead, tell them how to make it better.

[Lurking Eyebeast]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the general forums. A5 is NOT A4. Well at least I hope it isn't A4.

Quote:

If you don't want Blades to die, don't laugh off potential designers

This is an idea for A5 not BoE.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Aussieavernum:

 

Quote:

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the general forums. A5 is NOT A4. Well at least I hope it isn't A4.

If you have to ask, then the answer is no. Especially not if you have to ask after nearly thirteen pages.

 

Dikiyoba.