Avernum V

[Schlotz]

The kind of plot-line I find most interesting is one you can believe in, ie. not some mass major evil-for-the-sake-of-it demon guy. The real enemy should be one you don't expect, but also has an actual reason for causing whatever villanous acts he does, also the characters should have to make decisions that actually affect the stroyline, that's one thing I liked about the Geneforge series, although admitedly the system was fairly simple. Also, in the Small Rebellion scenario of BoA, such thing was used when you decided whether to aid the rebels or help destroy them, and this kind of thing got me thinking. Maybe either empire should have a large civil war that's been brewing for several years, possibly because several factions didn't agree with Empress Prazac, and the outbreak of the war meant loss of communication to Avernum, and starvation and similar were on the horizon and it's up to you to find a way to a message to the surface, or maybe the empire sends to Avernum for help, and it's up to you as to which side Avernum joins. Something along those lines, in which Avernum is not the direct victim, yet still has the possibility of being badly affected.

 

Or possibly there is a large scale war between several Vahnatai factions, since we know there are several. In this case either the fighting extends to taking place in Avernum, or Avernum is asked to aid some of the different Vahnatai groups and you are sent as an envoy to their lands to learn which group to join. There could be plenty of opportunities for twists in the tale, and when you decide, there are still several outcomes.

 

Or using the A4 engine, with no outdoor section, you could have fights going on all through the land, similar to an actual war, and you choose which you join, and that decision affects the outcome of the "battle". Though I reckon the AI would be hell to code for something like that.

 

These plots, I think, have more realism than your average rpg and put you in a major position straight away, instead of spending 5 days fighting goblin and bandit infestations before something weird happens to you and you end up unwantedly as the major hero of avernum due to some random mark or similar.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Schlotz

 

EDIT: Also, the real enemy should remain undiscovered until the last minutes of the game, and you should not be able to work out who it is easily, if at all. Though there should be a good reason to him being the villain, although this shouldn't be revelaed too obviously in a "Ha! I killed them all because I did". Either that, or better still, the villain is dependant on which side you choose and whatever loyalties your character has.

 

Another plot possibility is that the Vahnatai, or one tribe of them, attempt to help or contact Avernum the empire, but they fear the Vahnatai, and feel threatened by them and act hostile towards them, and it looks as though a second war is going to break out, with the possibility of further problems for Avernum, when an envoy from the Vahnatai reaches the Castle and pleads to Avernum that they do not want war, and you are sent to try to sort the situation out. Whether the game ends in full-scale war, or peace is down to your actions kinda of thing.

 

Nice and short post eh?

[Darkdread]

I really love playing in the middle of a big war and having to pick a side.

 

Also, now that so many things are common between Geneforge and Avernum, how about this: the Shapers need a safe place to carry out their crazy experiments, they find the perfect one: the caves known as Avernum, but there is just one little problem: there's people living there. The leaders decide to just "erase" the avernites.

 

Invasion and... war!!

 

Will the Empire (or the Vanhatai care about helping the Avernites?

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:
Also, now that so many things are common between Geneforge and Avernum, how about this: the Shapers need a safe place to carry out their crazy experiments, they find the perfect one: the caves known as Avernum, but there is just one little problem: there's people living there. The leaders decide to just "erase" the avernites.

Here's an even better idea: how about you never make any suggestions for the future plot direction of the Avernum series ever again?

[*i]

He got you good.

[Schlotz]

Yeah, I like fighting in wars and picking your side, so long as there's a proper reason for the war and that your decisions can affect the outcome in plently of different ways.

 

I think Avernum and Geneforge shoud be kept seperate since both worlds have completely different plots and do thinghs completely differently, combining the 2 would ruin all the continuity built up throughout the games, especially since Avernum and Exile have been going for such a long time.

 

Schlotz

[Darkdread]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:
Also, now that so many things are common between Geneforge and Avernum, how about this: the Shapers need a safe place to carry out their crazy experiments, they find the perfect one: the caves known as Avernum, but there is just one little problem: there's people living there. The leaders decide to just "erase" the avernites.

Here's an even better idea: how about you never make any suggestions for the future plot direction of the Avernum series ever again?

I'm not sure if I really got "the humour" in your message... Are you really talking to ME, or in general. I don't see why we should not make suggestions. If you didn't like my idea it's ok. Actually I'd prefer Jeff's opinion. Anyway...

[Alorael at Large]

Yes, Thuryl was directly addressing you. No, Jeff is not likely to comment, and if he does he is then legally obligated to ignore your suggestion.

 

—Alorael, who would rather see stranded sidhe from Nethergate appear in Avernum (in a cameo, please!) than any other game cross. Or a battle between Jordan and Bojar.

[Darkdread]

Quote:

Originally written by Siegfried der Waelsung:
Apparently the next Spiderweb game in the pipeline is another in the Geneforge series, but I just wanted to put in a plug for what ought to be added to the next Avernum game:

There should be an option for vahnatai player characters.

This assumes, of course, that none of the action will take place on the surface (since the vahnatai are sensitive to light). But I was disappointed that it wasn't an option in Avernum IV.

Well, since the topic starter was inviting to say what everyone would like to see in the next Avernum, I don't care if Thuryl does not like my idea, fortunately he's not the one making the decisions.
Anyway, it's good to be respectful with each other's ideas though...

Greetings.

[*i]

You mean your idea was serious?

[Dintiradan]

Lost Nethexermumforgeland Core: You, an adventuring party comprised of Roman legionaries and Celtic warriors, stumble across a planar gateway. On the other side, you discover an entire nation of exiles living in caves. However, a shadowy force is altering the Exiles' genetics, causing their very appearance to change. To stop this conversion (or to aid it; the game has a multitude of different endings), you must journey deep into the core of the Exiles' homeland. There you must retrieve to Stone of Night, and make the choice of freeing or subduing their lost souls.

 

--------------------

for clarity.

[Darkdread]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
You mean your idea was serious?

Why are you so surprised... creativity is not about coming up with broadly accepted ideas...

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
You mean your idea was serious?

Why are you so surprised... creativity is not about coming up with broadly accepted ideas...

See, here's the thing: it's not an original idea. About a dozen newbies before you have stumbled across the idea of mixing the Geneforge and Avernum continuity. It also sucks.

[Darkdread]

I'm still surprised at all the attention I got for suggesting an idea that it's so *not original*, thanks for your attention Thuryl.

 

Now, I don't really care if you think it sucks, perception is a very relative thing...

 

It would be good to see YOU giving very original ideas

 

Chau!

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:
It would be good to see YOU giving very original ideas

Anyone with any common sense keeps their best ideas to themselves and uses them to make their own BoE or BoA scenarios.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Dintiradan:
Lost Nethexermumforgeland Core: You, an adventuring party comprised of Roman legionaries and Celtic warriors, stumble across a planar gateway. On the other side, you discover an entire nation of exiles living in caves. However, a shadowy force is altering the Exiles' genetics, causing their very appearance to change. To stop this conversion (or to aid it; the game has a multitude of different endings), you must journey deep into the core of the Exiles' homeland. There you must retrieve to Stone of Night, and make the choice of freeing or subduing their lost souls.

--------------------
for clarity.

lol
Don't forget the game mechanics: The game uses primarily graphics from Homeland, with PC graphics being a choise between a Geneforge Shaper (for humans), an Exile cave lizard (for Sliths), or an Avernum Haaki (for Nephils). The PCs, in addition to their race, can choose culture with Romans specializing in combat skills and getting attack bonus v. Pylons, Demons and Snakes, while Celts specialize in magic and get a bonus v. Spawners, Goblins and Giant Snakes. There are also Shaping skills that can be unlocked by defeating Rentar Ihrno's ghost. There is also a side-quest to resurrect Erika, completion of which lets you take her into your party as an NPC. Another side quest involves constructing and using Geneforge.

[Micawber]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:

Quote:

Originally written by Marcelo:

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
You mean your idea was serious?

Why are you so surprised... creativity is not about coming up with broadly accepted ideas...

See, here's the thing: it's not an original idea. About a dozen newbies before you have stumbled across the idea of mixing the Geneforge and Avernum continuity. It also sucks.

Not to mention that Geneforge already has a plot arc established in GF1 which is still being played out and has nowhere near reached its conclusion, so it's just unnecessary to mix the two games.

In terms of Avernum plot ideas, the idea of the surface world invading the underworld was already used in A2. And notice that it's not actually a plot in itself, it's merely a setting in which the main plot can take place.

If you are going to suggest a plot (and I'm not going to discourage entirely), how about proposing something with a beginning, a middle and an end? Something that starts "how about" probably does not qualify...

[Schlotz]

"Not to mention that Geneforge already has a plot arc established in GF1 which is still being played out and has nowhere near reached its conclusion, so it's just unnecessary to mix the two games.

 

In terms of Avernum plot ideas, the idea of the surface world invading the underworld was already used in A2. And notice that it's not actually a plot in itself, it's merely a setting in which the main plot can take place.

 

If you are going to suggest a plot (and I'm not going to discourage entirely), how about proposing something with a beginning, a middle and an end? Something that starts "how about" probably does not qualify..."

 

I didn't suggest a surface world invasion of the underworld, I suggested that there is a civil war either in the empire or the Vahnatai. This thread was created originally for ideas for AV, so if you don't agree with people posting ideas for AV here, then why bother reading/posting in this thread at all? Also, read my first post for plot lines I'd personally like to see in the future.

 

Schlotz

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Schlotz:
I didn't suggest a surface world invasion of the underworld

From which you might reasonably conclude that he wasn't talking to you. Get over yourself.

[Micawber]

Yeah, I was replying to the person *i was talking to, the same person quoted by Thuryl in my quote of his (Thuryl's) post. I hope that clarifies things.

 

Edit: even so, I can't see how the confusion arose - Schlotz didn't mention Geneforge, didn't use the words "how about" and didn't suggest a surface invasion. In other words not a single thing I said could possibly be taken to refer to him/her.

[*i]

Quote:

Why are you so surprised... creativity is not about coming up with broadly accepted ideas...

Creativity is not your strong suit, I'm afraid.

[Alorael at Large]

In addition, although this makes me a philistine in some circles, I think the best creative ideas are widely accepted, at least eventually. Creativity that isn't accepted is still creative, I suppose, but that doesn't make it any good.

 

—Alorael, who would rather exercise his creativity in a medium other than Avernum.

[Darkdread]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:

Quote:

Why are you so surprised... creativity is not about coming up with broadly accepted ideas...

Creativity is not your strong suit, I'm afraid.

Well, so you guys still flaming my idea. The thing is, I didn't read the 12 previous pages (maybe I should have), and ok, you can tell I didn't know the idea was suggested before.

Now, let's avoid judging people, let's focus on the posts -(non violent communication.)

Anyway, I still would like to see a Shapers invasion in Avernum (you like it or not), and I am happy that I just said it. I am SO sorry some of you felt so bad that I suggested it, I hope you all are fine.
Saludos.

[Kelandon]

Not having read the past thirteen pages, I'm wondering about something: has any good idea been suggested yet?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Kelandon:

 

Quote:

Not having read the past thirteen pages, I'm wondering about something: has any good idea been suggested yet?

You followed the first eight pages. And aside from a minor celebration on page ten over the news that Erika, Rentar, and Garzahd were well and truly dead, you haven't missed much.

 

Dikiyoba.

[VCH]

How about the Averenties building a geneforge and then turn themselves into Drakons.

[Odile von Rothborne]

I'd like to see a return to the vahnatai lands, especially where you first visited in A2. Might be a bit tricky with the current situation with Rentar Ihrno but I think it could be done.

[Meeshka]

Just a thought for a detail in Avernum 5:

- I want to see snow in the game and everything which accompanies it: nations, creatures, landscapes.

Sorry if I missed too much, skipping A4, still I understand, that no action there took place in some northern areas. Thinking of a new area to discover may be it will be for good to remember some geographical traits of an human-inhabited planet? That's not a plot suggestion, still seems to be an interesting trait.

 

N.B. Saying "snow" I don't mean "winter".

[Igor]

How are you going to have snow in a cave?

[VCH]

You've never heard of a snow-cave?

[Meeshka]

At first I thought not only about the caves, but of the surface, as well. Still, at the northern side I expect to meet the eternally frozen caves.

I think that Ice Lizard should originate from north to keep the proper fauna balance. Otherwise their existence is a bit of nonsense from the point of evolution. May be

[Mister Fox]

I would like for Jeff to fix the weight of his items...he did improve it from earlier Avernums to 4, but (going from 12 pouds to 9 for a normal one-handed sword) 6-9 pounds for a one-handed sword is still a bit over the top. That's even a bit much for a two-hander realistically speaking. The average 1 handed battle sword weighs between 2.5 and 3 pounds, while the average 2 handed battle sword is 4-6, though 6 is uncommon. Swords didn't weigh a lot until they stopped being main battle weapons. Decorative and parade 1 handed swords could weigh up to 8 or 9 pounds but are nearly useless in combat. Unless everyone in Ermarian (sp?) has resorted to using display swords for some reason, these weapons need to go on a diet. I only have info on sword weight, but a few others seemed miscalculated...like a pir of gloves-not gauntlets-weighing 2 pounds seems a little much to me but I can't be certain.

[Ephesos]

Well, this would make it necessary to lower the PCs' carrrying capacities. But I see your point.

[Vicheron]

Here's an idea. A series of cave quakes cause panic and an exodus of Avernites. Empire and Avernite mages assure the people that it's nothing major and that the quakes will subside soon. Valorim is having trouble supporting the influx of new Avernite arrivals and you're hired to help the mages investigate the quakes. Basically you climb down deep below Avernum, trying to discover the source of the quakes. You're guided by mage scryers. There's long periods of time without being able to go back to town. Limited opportunities to resupply. Lots of nasty surprises from the shadows. Some new skills for deep cave exploration and survival. More interdependence within your party. Skill synergy between the party members. You have to be able to really fend for yourself. A few Vahnatai/Slith towns, a couple of demon/undead dungeons, and a few surprises to change the scenery. No uber bad guys are involved, your major enemies are nature and time.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Vicheron:
... No uber bad guys are involved, your major enemies are nature and time.

And what is the point? I mean in the end everyone in a team, who survived wil understand they are the best friends ever met and return and live happily ever after? What for was that mess with quakes? Or was it just the "trailer" that you wrote?

[Mr.Bookworm]

There's really no point to that unless something is causing the cave-quakes. You'd just wander around. You literally have to have a main bad guy. It gives the story focus.

[Meeshka]

On a second thought, quakes may be the signals to some planet catastrophe, so when you find that out your quest is to undertake all the steps to arrange the emigration to... well, theró are no spaceships yet, are there?

So, we need to have a bad guy or an evil overlord, so that after studying the todo list of him we should find a weak spot and save the planet.

 

Edit: typo. And did I say "we"? I meant "they", of course, the team of adventurers.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Mr.Bookworm:
There's really no point to that unless something is causing the cave-quakes. You'd just wander around. You literally have to have a main bad guy. It gives the story focus.

Bull. Edmund Hillary's ascent of Mount Everest doesn't have any villains in it, but it still makes for a riveting story.

[Dikiyoba]

But would it make a good Avernum-style game?

 

Dikiyoba.

[*i]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
But would it make a good Avernum-style game?

In the style of Avernum I, yeah, I'd say so. The real purpose in that was to run around and do lots of quests.

[Zeviz]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
But would it make a good Avernum-style game?

One possibility is, as *i pointed out, a game that is a combination of a large number of unrelated quests.

Another option is to have a storyline focused primarily on character development (soldiers in training, travellers trying to get somewhere, etc.) Such a game would probably be very linear, but could still make a good BoE scenario. (I had a scenario like this planned before I lost interest in BoE again.)

[Vicheron]

Quote:

Originally written by Meeshka:

Quote:

Originally written by Vicheron:
... No uber bad guys are involved, your major enemies are nature and time.

And what is the point? I mean in the end everyone in a team, who survived wil understand they are the best friends ever met and return and live happily ever after? What for was that mess with quakes? Or was it just the "trailer" that you wrote?

Why does there have to be an intelligence behind every catastrophe? How can you possibly say that there's no point to preventing natural disasters? Sometimes the most frightening disasters are the naturally occurring ones. Plus you think that just because they prevent a catastrophic series of quakes, if that does happen, that everything will go back to normal? If a series of earthquakes hits the town you live in and then a while later the government tells you that they just prevented a cataclysmic quake that could have destroyed your entire town and every town within a hundred mile radius, are you going to feel safe living there? Another thing is that just because it's naturally occurring does not mean there isn't something unnatural making it worse and there are always those unscrupulous enough to take advantage of such situations.

[Meeshka]

Quote:

Originally written by Vicheron:

Quote:

Originally written by Meeshka:

Quote:

Originally written by Vicheron:
[qb]... No uber bad guys are involved, your major enemies are nature and time.

And what is the point? I mean in the end everyone in a team, who survived wil understand they are the best friends ever met and return and live happily ever after? What for was that mess with quakes? Or was it just the "trailer" that you wrote?

Why does there have to be an intelligence behind every catastrophe? How can you possibly say that there's no point to preventing natural disasters?

Yes there is. As I wrote above, and seems you've missed it. A small one can be prevented by evacuation (or magically stopping a quake). Planetary cataclism on Ermarian is harder to prevent, I think. Still some pages earlier I seemed to make a proposal for a plot which will prevent a war/or any other "unnatural" disaster. Concretely prevent. A party will have to undertake some number of quests: diplomacy, assasination, stealing,... oh, whatever, that's adventuring. And the cataclism won't breakthrough.

Quote:

Sometimes the most frightening disasters are the naturally occurring ones. Plus you think that just because they prevent a catastrophic series of quakes, if that does happen, that everything will go back to normal?

Agreed. It won't. But back to Avernum. This time all the Avernites should leave Avernum for some sanctuary?

Quote:

If a series of earthquakes hits the town you live in and then a while later the government tells you that they just prevented a cataclysmic quake that could have destroyed your entire town and every town within a hundred mile radius, are you going to feel safe living there?

Again, agreed. The only difference of natural and unnatural then is that you can give a 100% guarantee of ending the latter and no guarantee for the former? What will your team be up to then?

Quote:

Another thing is that just because it's naturally occurring does not mean there isn't something unnatural making it worse and there are always those unscrupulous enough to take advantage of such situations.

There are. Marauders. But again, only if it is a local catastrophe.

[Retlaw May]

Warning: This idea is suited for BoA and I didn't play through A4.

I like the idea of the Slith homeland as the playing area, but that they are the peaceful society (or at least basically good as described in the hints of the Avernum trilogy) and that the humans and other species that found a way in are the "barbarian invaders." A role reverse is good every once in a while

Though I would mainly want to see this for the purpose of exploring their homeland.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Retlaw May:

 

Quote:

Though I would mainly want to see this for the purpose of exploring their homeland.

Have you played Bahssikava? It sounds like you'd be interested in it.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

Everything is fine now, but a looming cataclysm threatens destruction! The only problem with the plot is that if all goes well, nothing exciting happens. There's a reason heroes show up when things look darkest.

 

—Alorael, who wouldn't mind a cataclysm returning Avernum to its hardscrabble roots, though. Avernum was better when steel was rare. (Better for players. Not so very nice for inhabitants.)

[*i]

A lot of what makes a good story is how the characters react to the events around them. With the quake thing, there need not be a major overarching storyline. There should, however, be major goals involving getting Avernum back on track from the cataclysm.

 

As far as quakes being preventable by magic, that argument is a load as it's a fantasy universe and the parameters can be set however the author feels.

[Retlaw May]

As someone mentioned earlier, a weakness of the Avernum series is that the ncp's don't seem to react to much in their conversations. I would like to see ncp's react to what they have heard of your deeds. Also, I beleive that the engine run for the first 3 of the series was much better than the one run for the fourth game. I didn't even make it through half an hour with the new engine.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Retlaw May:
ncp's

National Circus Projects? National Car Parks? New Communist Parties? Northern Celestial Poles?

[Randomizer]

ncp as in non-character person, you know noobie.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Randomizer:
ncp as in non-character person, you know noobie.

The term you are looking for is "NPC", as in "non-player character".

Fool.