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Avernum V


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What is with this "demons are bad villains because they're inherently evil" thing? Need I remind you that the demons were in Avernum long before it was discovered by the Empire and that the Avernites were the aggressors who killed their lord and drove them from their homeland? Maybe demons are inherently more prone to evil than other species but their drive to murder wouldn’t be their only motivation in attacking Avernum, they want their freaking home back.

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Maybe demons are inherently more prone to evil than other species but their drive to murder wouldn’t be their only motivation in attacking Avernum, they want their freaking home back.
Again, we are back to the tired old paradigm of some group trying to take over/destroy something. True, they might have more motivation than sheer evil, but it would be revenge at best.

Essentially, we have Rentar-Ihrno in a different form. Why was she not well received? Not because of her inherent lack of motivations, but that her motivations and actions are so classic, so mundane, so predictable.

Yes, it followed logically, but too logically. A4 has no real surprise (other than the Darkside Loyalists) in it. By the end of the demo, we pretty much know who the bad guy is and exactly what is going to happen in the end. That's the main critique of the A4 plotline and the same critique the demon plotline as it stands would apply. Not saying that the demons cannot be used, they can, but should be done so in a novel way.
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If demons are to be A5’s main villains, it does not mean it has to be "demons smash, demons crush." I'm sure demons are very fond of excessive and unnecessary violence but they are also very intelligent, cunning, and adept at deception and coercion. They enslaved Sss-Thsss’s tribe. Both Grazahd and Rentar-Dumbo made deals with demons which undoubtedly ended up favoring the demons. The demons wouldn’t even have to attack directly at all. They could just fuel the hatred that already exists between the various factions, whisper dark thoughts into the ears of leaders, supply both sides during wars and collect the souls of the dead.

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I say that Avernum stops being so passive. All they ever do (A1 in exception) is wait for there enemies to attack. Thus my whole "Avernum attacks the demon world thing". This and I want to see what Jeff shows as the demon world. Now, about the Vahnatai, I would like to see there view on all this. I also like the Darkside Loyalists, plotwise. Make them allies with the demons or something. Hmmm. I've probably said to much. I've got this phrase running through my mind, "Join the Darkside Loyalists, we have cookies!"

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I've got an idea... let's have A5 span all the continents, including Avernum, Upper Avernum, and Vahnatai Lands!

 

And let's resurrect every major villain from the plots of games past, and have you fight them! Even Geneforge villains!

 

And you'll be able to play as humans, slith, nephilim, vahnatai, dragons, undead, giant slimes, and Celts! And if you unlock the easter egg, you can play as the First Expedition, and even die like they did!

 

And you'll be able to buy houses on every continent, and open businesses, and do courier runs between continents for huge amounts of cash that you'll never use! And there won't be boats!

 

And plagues! Lots of plagues! Demons, cockroaches, and giant slimes! Heck, let's throw in dragons and vahnatai as well! How about some legendary weapons that you can resell and buy back for as many copies as you want!

 

Let's lose the character editor, lose the plot, and throw in fifteen extra Xian items! And you know what, when you finish, you won't be able to continue! And even better, let's use another new engine!!!! Why not?!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!??

 

 

 

 

 

(heavy breathing)

 

Or, we could just leave it to Jeff, like we always have. I prefer that method.

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Vicheron, your demon ideas are so similar to the BoA trilogy I'm tentatively planning that it's scary.

 

(Puts on tin foil hat).

 

Where is this "Wild Speculation" thread? I must find it and post my ideas on the upcoming Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking Fluffy Turtles...

 

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Be mildly uncomfortable. Be VERY mildly uncomfortable.

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They could decide to destroy the monsters once and for all.

 

Okay, that's a bad idea. Avernum smashing things, while a good deal better than things smashing Avernum, invites way too much hack & slash to be a good premise. Maybe a series of side quests where there's an offensive agaisnt the sliths or something.

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I have a question...

 

If Avernum created a precedent as an area of the Empire breaking away and becoming sovereign, why aren't there any other instances of sovereignty disputes? Now that Avernum has shown that the Empire can be beaten, there should be more groups, somewhere, demanding their own nation.

 

And I definitely support a return to the Avernum Trilogy game engine.

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Quote:
Originally written by Skorpio:
If Avernum created a precedent as an area of the Empire breaking away and becoming sovereign, why aren't there any other instances of sovereignty disputes? Now that Avernum has shown that the Empire can be beaten, there should be more groups, somewhere, demanding their own nation.
It's already been done somewhat in A Small Rebellion. Mind, having done something before doesn't seem to to discourage Jeff from doing it again...
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i dont think u can beat the empire if the fighting is on its own terf....not only did avernum have tactical advantage over the Empire it also had the Vanahtai...i dont think many rebels will be able to come up with that. I do however have a question for exile/avernum vets. If the empire can teleport soldiers why would it be an advantage for some one to be on an island??? That bothered me in the small rebellion.

 

This is question more towards the development crew of A5 (jeff) So the whole A5 will be underground??? no hopes of seeing green grass or an empire dervish?

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We know that the Empire can set up major portals. We also know they're a big deal, judging by the portal set up in A2. Given the necessary investment and the fact that they only set up one, I think teleporting soldiers onto an island is simply more difficult than sending more troops by boat.

 

Avernum has the advantage of being a group of people already antagonized by the Empire. They're not a small rebel group on their own territory, they're everyone in the caves. They've also got more than their fair share of powerful banished wizards.

 

Remember, the Hill Runners don't win (if you help them) because they have superior numbers. They win through terrorism and assassination.

 

—Alorael, who suspects that the portal bottleneck is Avernum's main advantage. It makes the Empire's supply lines ugly, reinforcement relatively slow, and generally makes life difficult. An island can have a similar advantage, although probably not if the Empire decides to send a serious naval force out to break blockades and land troops. On any mainland the Empire can simply throw bodies at problems until they go away.

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The Empire and Avernum are two political entities. The sliths have many individual bands, but no one empire (unless one counts whatever may be going on in the slith homeland). The vahnatai also have many clans, one of which (Rentar-Ihrno's) is large enough to be significantly influential. The nephilim have many clans, also, one of which (the Ratbane clan) was once influential but is no more.

 

I still count only two real major political powers.

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Starting over in a new area will mean fewer preconceived ideas of what to expect. No more familiar terrain that has been revised to no longer fit the older games.

 

I would like to go back to the A1 to 3 terrain style. Now that characters have more slots and virtually unlimited carrying capacity, we can have battle screens pop up in the wilderness. The problem in the older games was losing treasure due to too few slots and a maximum weight. This is especially true when there seems to be a limit to total treasure in the game. The only way to get more treasure is to kill off the townspeople and ones like Sleater.

 

The game could be like the Khazi (?) Run where you start out in a safe area and after building up strength take off for the unknown. You fight safe places to rest and sell items, but you need to keep going in order to achieve an ending to the game.

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Quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:
The game could be like the Khazi (?) Run where you start out in a safe area and after building up strength take off for the unknown.
First, Za-Khazi.

Second, no. That kind of structure would simply echo many other RPGs which already exist. Just hack, slash, and stab to the next save point (Dungeon Siege leaps to mind... never did get the momentum to finish it). Spiderweb's games are unique in that they defy that structure.
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Quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:
... unless one counts whatever may be going on in the slith homeland...
Exactly! That's definitely supposed to be a (big) nation.

Quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:
... The vahnatai also have many clans...
Doh, you're right on this one, my bad.

So that makes 3 big nations then, plus several smaller ones, e.g. Vahnatai clans, large Slith/Nephil/etc clans.
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Well, we don't actually know anything about what has happened in the slith homeland in the past couple of centuries up to A4. The sliths were banished at least one hundred and probably two hundred years before A1, which is many, many decades before A4 (although it varies, depending on who you talk to).

 

Empire do fall, from time to time.

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Since the anvil is falling from a great height, I think there should be a time delay of a few rounds from casting until impact. You pick a target spot and then try to force the enemy to occupy that spot during the impact round. This would only work on high health point monsters, but wouldn't it have been neat for nailing those shades.

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Shouldn't be too hard in BoA, though I haven't tried.

 

- Make several terrains with anvils, all shifted up in various amounts. Make them passable.

 

- When using a special ability, cutscene with the sequence of anvil terrains on an enemy's square, then do damage.

 

Or something to that effect, as I said, I don't know enough how to implement it. I am going to try do this for scenario #2, however.

 

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IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying ropes and filching keys happens to follow him around.

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Avernum 5 could take place in the Abyss since the Abyss is the new Avernum. All of society's unwanted are sent there, it's dangerous, untamed, unexplored, and mysterious just like how Avernum was when it first started.

 

I had a great idea for a BoA scenario that takes place in the Abyss but I'm really bad with scenario editor so if I do try to make the scenario it'll probably take many many decades. The basic premise is that there's trouble in the Abyss, an old foe has risen, and you're sent by the King to investigate. The giants are beginning to organize under a new or old leader, depending on how you look at it. There are new factions rising in the Abyss. There's a new religious order trying to help the Abyss fend off its enemies. There's a new town built by necromancers, they help defend the Abyss against giants and monsters so they're tolerated, and there's an Avernite research colony exploring the area and trying to study Erika's tower.

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That actually sounds like a decent idea for A5, minus the "Giants! We're all gonna die!" part. There were also some unexplored northern tunnels in A2 (you might explore them in A1, haven't played it) and some lands that were under the control of the Empire. The Abyss has all the charm of A1 and A2 in that completely random monsters and puzzles assail you in the outdoors.

Now we just need an original foe or challenge. I agree with Jeff in that monolithic evil trying to destroy the world is bad.

 

(I want the name of that anvil scenario!)

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Quote:
Originally written by Vicheron:
an old foe has risen,
This phrase makes me die a little inside. New foes are so much better... or would you rather kill Rentar-Ihrno in UV again?

The rest of that idea actually sounds pretty good. Perhaps trying to do too much in one scenario, but it might work.
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By Vicheron:

Quote:
an old foe has risen
I think there is a need for all prospective scenario designers to submit the name of their villain if they are going to use game material. For instance, it wouldn't do if three scenarios came out telling how Garzahd has returned.

 

Dibs on Adze!

 

I love the premise, though. One of the biggest things I missed in A2 was the Abyss. When is this set in terms of the series? Before A2 (and the Empire war), before or after A4?

 

EDIT: By Ephesos:

Quote:
New foes are so much better...
Sometimes, the old foes are underdeveloped. C'mom, Adze's this big baddie midgame in A1, and he doesn't even get a line!

 

--------------------

And now for something completely different...

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There are going to be a lot of things in my scenario but it all ties together. It takes place some time after Avernum 2, after the Abyss has been rebuilt. I had originally wanted it to take place around the time of Avernum 3 but now I want it to take place after Avernum 4.

 

*Spoiler for my scenario which probably won’t be finished until Avernum 8 comes out*

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The old foe is Pyrog. He has risen as a lich and is mobilizing the giants. How has he risen as a lich you ask? Maybe it's not really Pyrog, maybe the giants somehow brought him back, maybe it has something to do with the newly founded settlement of necromancers in the Abyss, maybe it has something to do with the fact that his lair was taken by the Empire during the war and turned into a laboratory, or maybe it's a combination of those things as well as other factors.

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Quote:
Originally written by Vicheron:
The old foe is Pyrog. He has risen as a lich and is mobilizing the giants. How has he risen as a lich you ask? Maybe it's not really Pyrog
Ow, ow, ow... why?! WHY?!!!

At first, I read this and thought "Tell me Vicheron knows that Pyrog is dead..."

Next, I thought "Risen as a lich? Anything but an undead dragon!"

Next, I realized how bad of a pun "An old enemy has risen" was.

Last, I recalled my experience testing Shipwrecked, where SPOILER is the main villain. That was horrible... they had no character, no motivation, and nothing at all to do with the character's past appearances. Please don't do this. Pick a new villain, so that we're not left with an empty characterization of an established member of game canon.

EDIT: Hah, beat you to the post, Wonko!
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Quote:
Originally written by Vicheron:

The old foe is Pyrog. He has risen as a lich and is mobilizing the giants. How has he risen as a lich you ask? Maybe it's not really Pyrog, maybe the giants somehow brought him back, maybe it has something to do with the newly founded settlement of necromancers in the Abyss, maybe it has something to do with the fact that his lair was taken by the Empire during the war and turned into a laboratory, or maybe it's a combination of those things as well as other factors.
AAAAAAARGH!!! PAIN!!!

Ouch. Do NOT bring back Pyrog. Please, please. The plot "Something is attacking Avernum. Stop it." is waaaaay overused. Liches are especially bad, as they invite non-justification like a lightbulb draws moths. Perhaps an powerful artifact that the Empire created in Pyrog Labs has been stolen by someone. Perhaps the party must appease the ghost of a powerful Empire mage that was killed in the war. You could even use your demons idea. But DON'T have giants and a lich attack everything.

EDIT: Ephesos seems to have posted first. Ah well.
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A villain's motivation and justification (or lack of it) is very important. I'd rather see an old enemy with appropriate motivation than a new character without any.

 

I also enjoy being introduced to the villian(s) as characters with names and personalities, rather than just existing. This is probably rather difficult to do in a scenario, though.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Well you don't know the whole story but I'll tell you since by the time the scenario's finished no one will remember any of this.

 

*Spoiler*

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It's not really Pyrog. During the war a group of demons were summoned by the Empire to help revive Pyrog so they could learn its secrets. The war ended before they could finish the experiment. The demons were trapped with powerful magic in Pyrog's lair when the Empire left. Some giants inadvertently discovered the secret lair where the demons were imprisoned. The demons enslaved the giants and had the giants help the demons take possession of Pyrog’s corpse. The demons then had the giants kidnapped a bunch of humans, enslaved them and turned them into their priests. These priests returned to the part of the Abyss settled by humans. They pretend to be good and help the people there so they could convert people to their new religion which was created by the demons. The converts basically unknowingly pledge their souls to the demons. The ultimate goal of the demons is to have the humans and giants fight a prolonged war so they can collect everyone’s souls eventually gathering enough power to break through their prison and return to the netherworld to become kings. The demons are just using Pyrog to mislead everyone. The demons want to destroy the new settlement of necromancers by tricking people into thinking that the necromancers raised Pyrog and lost control of him because the necromancers have the best chance of figuring out where the souls of the dead are going.

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i am very sorry like i said a few days ago i am a noob at forum stuff

 

a quick question to exile/avernum vets. I know there are vanahtai lands under avernum and then there is upper avernum above avernum...has it ever been explained in A1 or A2 just how many layers there are? Also, jeff said that A5 will be in a totaly new place in avernum how can u have a new place if you can have mages scry and make mapes? How can u really find an area u didnt know existed with that sort of magic?

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