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Avernum V


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Quote:
Originally written by rantalot:
come on you cant tell me demons werent cool in bashikova in BoA it can be one of the plagues in A5 kinda like the shades in A4
The shades in A4 were interesting because they were NOT a "Hey, let's hack through several billion minor monsters in an underground cavern before we get to the spawner-type boss!"

There is also the issue of motivation. A whole game based around the idea "An enemy is attacking because it's evil. Kill it." is a weak game, no matter how well the atmosphere or the fights are done.
Demons in particular are prone to this. Give them a motivation, make them interesting, and don't throw millions of imps at us in every corner, and maybe.
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What I liked about the shades was that they conveyed the proper sense of awe and majesty. They had noticeable effects on the atmosphere (no one will talk to you when they're around) and they'd take you down if you attacked them too early in the game.

 

They were kind of anti-climactic at the end, though, when they were so easy to kill. I wish that the final fight against each one had been more elaborate.

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ok so demons are admitebly a little 2 dimentional but what else is there to threaten the empire??? well...the vanahtai but i think we all agree that having them as main bad guys is getting old

 

and about hack and slash when it comes to demons...i think the scenario was called The Curse of Being Famouse and i dont think that and the main demon (much like a shade) was involnurable till you do a seriouse of quests to get his charm

 

In that scenario rebels actualy tried to control and use demons to fight the empire. I think that was a pretty cool idea that should be exploited in A5 exept it would work this time

 

---halfbreed idea: half man half demon...small resistance to all magic and edged weapons bonus (45% exp penalty)

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Quote:
ok so demons are admitebly a little 2 dimentional but what else is there to threaten the empire???
It's Avernum we are worrying about, not the Empire. Jeff could come up with a lot of things, an undiscovered Slith kingdom, a powerful magical being, a natural occurrence such as a massive cave quake that disrupts order, etc.

In other words, tons of things as long as you don't restrict yourself to the monster plague/evil bad guy out to take over the world mentality.

I'd just like to see something else, like a game based on survival or escape.
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The Darkside Loyalists seemed like a good story to go with, but they were kind of reduced to a minor mystery role when they could have been so much more.

 

I've also always envisioned Commander Johnson going crazy upon reaching the surface and getting an army of Exiles to attack the Empire and you trying to stop him.

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hey what ever happend to buying a house i liked that in A3 it gave you neat mini quests why wasnt that in A4 but to expand the idea a bit i think you should be able 2 buy a business in A5 and do quests making ur business profitable...reward being money of course...this is a pretty rough idea does any one have anything 2 say about it

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Capitalization and punctuation are good, rantalot, it's very difficult to read your posts. The house and quest aspect is cool, but I'd rather see a well developed and original main storyline first before adding any frills. If I ask for anything, that's what I ask for first.

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What I would like to see, but this would be 5 or more years away for the grahics to catch up, is the sliths have gotten fed up with Avernum and gone home. Going back to Avernum 1 and that lost city in the Giant Lands, the sliths have found a way through that doorway. The party would be all sliths with maybe that old Exile intelligence bonus scouting out the route from that city through an all new landscape.

 

We could have elevations again, although I'm hoping they'll be back in Avernum 5.

 

The game could end with an epic battle of sliths versus demons or some new hostile force. Make it ten times larger than the ziggurut one in Avernum 2. It will be something to watch for hours.

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Honestly, what I'd like to see is a world-building/tactical game based on the Avernum series. Play as the original founders of Avernum as they fight to clear the caves of dangerous creatures. Protect towns as they get built to your specs, attracting shopkeepers to equip and train your soldiers. Build up the Tower of the Magi to get protection from the magical beasts. Forge alliances with the friendly nephil and sliths. Ultimately take down Grah-Hoth and bottle him up for a bit.

 

Sure, the plot is known and completely flat, but the gameplay could be interesting. And I chose that scenario because it seems to fit well, but there's no reason that Jeff couldn't create an entirely new scenario instead. Avernum decides to go expansionist into some new caves in the northwest tunnels, for example.

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I have a couple ideas for new villains AND new species.

 

Villains- A Avernite/Empire Arch-Mage(super sorcerer) trying to become a god by collect the spirit or essence of the most powerful NPC's in Avernum and the Empire. At the end, you can decide to release the collected spiritual energy(could be in a giant jar or a spire or something) or absorb it

 

A giant revolt of monsters and bandits in Avernum, forcing the survivors to the surface. You have to gain the trust of a general or two to be able to go below-ground. You have to reinfoce the few Avernite-controlled cities and outposts, and retake some major positions, clearing the area for the Alliance army(Avernite, Empire, Vahnati, whoever else)The revolt leader turns out to be a demon of great power, and you have to kill him/her/it.

 

Species/Charecters- A secret sub-race of magical-intuned humans is found. They get bonuses casting mage spells, get a bonus mana, and have like a 15-25% exp penalty

 

A race of wolf-men. They look partly human and partly like wolves. They get more action points in combat, and get a point or two in quick action, and I think like a 25-30% exp penalty would be sufficent.

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No... Grah-Hoth was killed/banished in A1. So was Adze-Haaki. So it won't work.

 

And Glafna, more races won't help anything. You've basically suggested werewolves and vahnatai minus the body shape. Neither sounds particularly good.

 

EDIT: I believe this is post #1300. Yay.

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The main problem with a drop-in villain, such as demons, undead, or now the Vahnatai, is that they are seldom developed. Vahnatai as villains had potential: they aren't pure evil, just their schewed honour system lead them to evil acts. Why should demons be treated different? I'm making a small BoA trilogy, and eventually the villains will be demons. And I'll (gasp!) actually be giving each individual demon a character, a purpose for attackng, and 'redeeming' qualities. I'm curious to find out whether they will be seen as more or less evil than before.

 

EDIT: By Ephesos:

Quote:
No... Grah-Hoth was killed/banished in A1. So was Adze-Haaki. So it won't work.
So says you... (Don't worry, Grah-Hoth won't appear in my scenario).

 

--------------------

IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.

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Are people forgetting that three powerful dragons have sworn terrible vengeance against the Empire? And they're breeding, possibly with other dragons who are still living on the surface. The dragons don't even have to be the villains. The Empire could be trying to hunt them down before their children grow up and become a much bigger threat. That's worth at least a very big side quest.

 

Vahnatai PC would be way too hard to balance. They'd have natural bonuses to dexterity, intelligence, endurance, magical abilities, and Vahnatai lore. That's like a 60% experience penalty even if they're given extreme weakness with prolonged exposure to sunlight.

 

Oh and not all demons are evil, there are some that are more or less neutral. Plus Avernum once belonged to the demons, there obviously weren't that many people there for the demons to torment before the Empire started sending people down.

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wht about my villain ideas? Any comments or personal additions/subtractions?

 

Edit: The idea for dragons as a sort of side-quest is a great idea, Vicheron. I have a little addition though. The dragons and thousands of weakers monsters have been incited to attack the Empire and some parts of Avernum. The 3 elder dragons could be bosses put in between the middle of the game and the end.

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The soul-collecting idea is... well, quite frankly, it sounds kind of weak. Going off of the idea that any "capture soul" spells thus far have required crystals, any villain capable of that would probably be vahnatai, particularly if they're able to easily overwhelm the most powerful NPCs in Avernum.

 

The giant monster/bandit rebellion... it sounds like A4 again. Haven't we killed enough chitrachs yet? :p

 

EDIT:

 

Quote:
Originally written by Glafna:

and thousands of weakers monsters

Gah!!! No!!! Anything but that! It just screams, "I've got hordes of progressively harder monsters for no apparent reason!"
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Grah-Hoth isn't so fully banished that he didn't try to return in A3. He's still out there, but he's also still more of a natural disaster than a detailed character.

 

Now a different (and equally implausible) idea. With greater ties between Avernum and the Empire, greater administrative oversight of Avernum becomes possible and good. Avernum becomes nearly as repressive as the Empire. Some rebel takes up arms and tries to overthrow the Avernite government to return to Avernum's libertarian roots. You get to pick your side. It's like A Small Rebellion all over again, only underground!

 

And then an earthquake collapses some caves, opens up some new ones, and disrupts Avernum, the Empire, and the rebels alike. You get to pick up the pieces.

 

—Alorael, who would not in fact like his plot as stated. It is, however, a plot that should involve two detailed sides, real decisions, and that neat survival/exploration element.

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Hmmm... I like the dragon idea. Remember, Athron had kids, and there's still that vengeful dragon from VoDT.

 

By Alorael:

Quote:
Now a different (and equally implausible) idea. With greater ties between Avernum and the Empire, greater administrative oversight of Avernum becomes possible and good. Avernum becomes nearly as repressive as the Empire. Some rebel takes up arms and tries to overthrow the Avernite government to return to Avernum's libertarian roots. You get to pick your side. It's like A Small Rebellion all over again, only underground!
You don't even have to make Avernum more repressive. Just use the Scimitar.

 

By Ephesos:

Quote:
Gah!!! No!!! Anything but that! It just screams, "I've got hordes of progressively harder monsters for no apparent reason!"
Crap. There's an evil overlord quote that works perfectly with this, but I don't have the list on this computer. Guess I'll just have to ad lib...

 

--------------------

IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

I will not use spawners to progressively populate my dungeon while the Heroes are in it. Instead, I will plan ahead, so they are crushed the moment they enter.

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I don't think the dragons would be attacking the Empire so soon. They're very patient creatures. I would think that they'd at least wait until their children have grown to adulthood which may take a couple of centuries and the Empire would probably want to wipe out the dragons before that happens. The side quest I'm thinking about involves the Empire trying to find where the dragons are hiding and your group helps either the Empire or the dragons depending on how the rest of the story goes. If you help the Empire the quest may involve you sneaking into the dragon's lair and stealing their eggs, if you help the dragons, the quest may involve you somehow sabotaging the Empire's search.

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The exact quote is:

 

Quote:
If my weakest troops fail to eliminate a hero, I will send out my best troops instead of wasting time with progressively stronger ones as he gets closer and closer to my fortress.
That aside, I don't like all this "oh, there's still the ____ or the _____ to threaten Avernum." The plot base "Some large force is attacking a place. Stop it." has been overdone by Spiderweb to the extreme. A2/E2 was the first to use it, I believe. Then we had A3/E3, G3, and A4. The newer games are just trying to find different ways to have a place be attacked. We want something fresh! Have us liberate a place from foes! Make us escape from a prison! These aren't great ideas, but there's gotta be something better than "Something's attacking Avernum. Stop it."
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Thanks Wonko.

 

Seriously people, these are good BoA ideas. None of them are really long and detailed enough to be the main idea behind A5. I can't really think of any enemy which will take up an entire game. The caves are mostly settled, the Sliths are nice, the Empire is nice, the Vahnatai are overdone, and the demons would suck for a main plot (side-villains are okay, though). They are, however, the perfect length for a scenario or two.

 

I envision A5 to seem like being beaten to death with feathers; who says evil has to be monolithic?

 

--------------------

"HA HA"

- Inscription on an obelisk in a dead-end, somewhere in the Avernum Trilogy.

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When Jeff makes A5 he should not bother recreating the whole of Avernum. As I'm sure he tires of making the same town multiple times. The adventure should begin perhaps at the Castle. From there the party could be sent to a newly discovered cave sytem that Averenties are just begining to settle. In short The Great Cave, Eastern gallery, and so on shouldn't really play a role in A5 as there are, I assume, numerous cave systems that could be exploited beyond these.

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Hey. Grah-Hoth is the Prince of Demons. Chances are there are numerous spells preventing him from returning, but what about daddy? The King of the Demons is sure going to angry. WHat's more the angry dragons, that's good. I like this idea, the Empire is being attacked by the Dragons. Avernum has sent it's army into the demon world to kill the King of Demons. The Vahnatai porviding the portal to do so, after all they need to be good guys already. The rebels on the surface have unified under Commander Johnson. The army of rebels is taking advantage of the Empire's weakness to attack. You have to help with each problem. Starting with the demons, and ending with rebels. What's more you can join the rebels, taking over the surface, or kill them.

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Quote:
Hey. Grah-Hoth is the Prince of Demons. Chances are there are numerous spells preventing him from returning, but what about daddy? The King of the Demons is sure going to angry.
Once again, we are back to evil demons because demons are evil. Also, where do you find reference that Grah-Hoth is an actual Prince and not just metaphoric? Citation please.

Quote:
WHat's more the angry dragons, that's good. I like this idea, the Empire is being attacked by the Dragons.
The worst thing about A4 would be the utter predictability of the plot. The worst thing about this is the same reason.

Come on! Can't we shift the paradigm away from someone attacking somewhere? These games have milked that concept dry.
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I learned about Grah-Hoth being the prince on the Encyclopedia Ermarian. Plus there is a reason, his only son has been humiliated, and he's going to want pay back. That's an actual reason, not just "hey that guy is evil, go kill him". About the Dragons, who bout the Empire attacks them because they're harboring in the rebels. Heck we could even do the invasion of the demon world solo. After all it's Avernum who is doing the invading, finally.

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Quote:
Grah-Hoth is a Haakai lord and a prince among demons.
The context shows that "prince" is a methaphorical one. Do you have any citation of there being a "demon king" or that Grah-Hoth was his "only son"?

Revenge has been done overly much in Exile/Avernum and is pretty much as mundane as the he's evil because he's evil argument. Finally, why must there always be someone attacking/invading something? Can't we do better?
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I would argue that the definition of "Demon" is pretty much "a being of pure evil", so giving them some other motivation may not be appropriate.

 

I would argue that for this reason, they are a really bad idea.

 

I want Jeff to stop telling the story of Avernum and start telling the story of a few people who happen to live in Avernum.

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The way I currently picture Avernum 5 is:

 

i. In a whole new area of the underworld.

ii. On a much smaller scale, plot-wise. You have a major mission, but no monolithic power trying to blow up the world.

iii. More like Avernum 2 in details of storyline.

iv. Vahnatai are present.

v. More talk and diplomacy.

vi. More PC icons and graphical improvements, but the same underlying engine.

 

But I won't think about things in real detail for a year, at least.

 

- Jeff Vogel

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A band of Unspecified Services adventurers, who should never, ever be called Covert Ops, have made a wreck of Avernum and Valorim. They've looted, killed, and dungeon crawled there way through an entire continent and cave system. Now hordes of Avernites and surface dwellers alike are up in arms. The very throne of Avernum is in danger.

 

As a band of young Unspecified Servicers yourselves, it has fallen to you to right the wrongs and restore the peace. Find new goblin tribes to move into the caves so other young adventurers can gain necessary experience! Find and the heirlooms that are unfortunately far from priceless, buy them back from the merchants who have them now, and return them! Set trap, lock doors, and raise magic barriers to prevent it all from happening again until another band of adventurers has 15 Tool Use and Dispel Barrier!

 

—Alorael, who knows it can't be done. Measle got there first.

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A good idea Jeff. That's why your the game designer or whatever. Maybe A5 can be a band of Unspecified Services adventurers going to explore a new tunnel opened recently. The tunnel would lead to Vahnatai Lands with many foes along the way. No one has made it through yet, so you are chosen. The only reason they know it goes to the Vahnatai Lands is because they've scryed it connecting to the Dark Waters. There is some minor settlements of slith and vahnatai build with few people there.The vahnatai settlements along the way ar from other tribes. When you finally make it to the Vahnatai Lands you are greeted much like in A2. You must destroy the new threat/s to the vahnatai, probably including the last of the Rentar Ihrno's followers. I would also like it if they mentioned Bon Ihrno. Like a ghost or hopefully even a Crystal Soul.

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Jeff's post makes me happy. This sounds good.

 

I hope that the "whole new area of the underworld" makes sense with what we've already been told about Avernum. One of the reasons that vahnatai lands were fun in A2 was that they fit with the Avernum map. One of the reasons that ZKR was frustrating, in terms of setup, was that it wasn't possible to place it in relation to anything.

 

More talk and diplomacy, and a little variation beyond just hacking, also sounds quite welcome after A4.

 

EDIT: Skribbaneking, my first reaction to your post is OH GOD NO. Rentar-Ihrno is dead. She has no followers. That was the whole point in A4: she's isolated and alone. There's no more Rentar-Ihrno-ness in the vahnatai. It's done.

 

At least, I hope.

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I really hope that there will be re-growing herbs like A1-3. Also shops should re-stock their products, even when the shop is not completely empty. It is so annoying that you have to buy all of the alchemist's potions in order to get him re-stock only one type of potions.

Enemies should drop more often the equipment they are carrying. In A1-3 it was like that but in A4 a band of thugs armed with swords, spears and bows only drop few coins and luckily one sword.

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Maybe it should be made that a giant earth quike happend in the eastern part of avernum and reveald a giant path to a new series of caves thats even bigger than avenum and that thetres a new breed of slith.....more powerfull than the ones in avernum and that they have encredible magic and they are more bigger and are a giant portal has bean created and grah-hoth and other mightier demons that lived long before the empire discoverd avernum in avernum and were banished but returns through this portal.And a powerfull magician died but upon his death something happend......all five dragons have returnd.....completely heald and that includes motrax thats slightly yonger.and it would work great with the avernum triology engine.

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Quote:
Originally written by lordofdc:
Maybe it should be made that a giant earth quike happend in the eastern part of avernum and reveald a giant path to a new series of caves thats even bigger than avenum and that thetres a new breed of slith.....more powerfull than the ones in avernum and that they have encredible magic and they are more bigger and are a giant portal has bean created and grah-hoth and other mightier demons that lived long before the empire discoverd avernum in avernum and were banished but returns through this portal.And a powerfull magician died but upon his death something happend......all five dragons have returnd.....completely heald and that includes motrax thats slightly yonger.and it would work great with the avernum triology engine.
Bigger! More Powerful! Bring on EVERYTHING at ONCE!!

...

In all seriousness, this is a typical plot of the inexperienced. It rests upon the assumption that more is always better. When I was younger, naive, and far less cynical, I had similar thoughts and beliefs.

Give the monster another 500 HP I thought, they'll love it...but then I realized the dearth of creativity that it was. It's never about how much or how big, but on how detailed, how personal, how elegant. Sure, more can help when needed, but more for the sake of more is almost always less.

Finally, I'm happy to read that A5 will be on a "smaller" or "less epic" scale.
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Quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:
The way I currently picture Avernum 5 is:

i. In a whole new area of the underworld.
ii. On a much smaller scale, plot-wise. You have a major mission, but no monolithic power trying to blow up the world.
iii. More like Avernum 2 in details of storyline.
...
v. More talk and diplomacy.
...

- Jeff Vogel
I am looking forward to A5 already. smile A2 was my favorite game in the series.

Quote:
Originally written by Alorael:
... As a band of young Unspecified Servicers yourselves, it has fallen to you to right the wrongs and restore the peace. Find new goblin tribes to move into the caves so other young adventurers can gain necessary experience! Find and the heirlooms that are unfortunately far from priceless, buy them back from the merchants who have them now, and return them! Set trap, lock doors, and raise magic barriers to prevent it all from happening again until another band of adventurers has 15 Tool Use and Dispel Barrier!...
Have you read Evil Masterminding for Idiots ?
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Quote:
The way I currently picture Avernum 5 is:
Can we also go back to the more open-ended goal set of Avernum 1&2? A set of end-game goals, that can be achieved in an arbitrary order.

One of the things I liked most about 1&2 was the ability to choose which paths to follow and when. in 3 (and it looks like in 4, although I just finished the demo, and I'm not going to be able to play the rest of it for a week or 2), the storyline is rather linear. Side quests can be done whenever, but the main plot plods forward, without any significant forking.
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By Zeviz:

Quote:
Have you read Evil Masterminding for Idiots?
This has an uncanny resemblance to the EVIL OVERLORD LIST . Now, once I run out of the 300-odd rules for Evil Overlords to quote, I can use this new list. Thanks!

 

--------------------

IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD:

I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. Now they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X.

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Quote:
Originally written by Dintiradan:
By Zeviz:
Quote:
Have you read Evil Masterminding for Idiots?
This has an uncanny resemblance to the EVIL OVERLORD LIST . Now, once I run out of the 300-odd rules for Evil Overlords to quote, I can use this new list. Thanks!
...
A story in the signature might be a bit hard to read. What about some advice for your Henchmen , or even being a good sport and giving advice to the other characters ?

Sorry about off-topicness. I'll stop now.
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Sorry, I only took a passing look at the Idiot's page. Good reading, though.

 

Wow, an entire site devoted to everything Evil Overlord related. I'm in heaven...

 

*cough* So, back to A4... A less "Heroes of Avernum save the world" approach might be better; it'd be nice to see Avernum from an outsider's point of view.

 

EDIT: Clarification.

 

--------------------

Wouldn't it be easier if Rentar just used a sunlamp on Erika?

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