Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 It's too bad there's no English version of the IZJS version. It sounds like a much better system. In the same way, FF6 is tremendously improved by never equipping espers. Suddenly, all the characters are totally unique and the battle system no longer turns into "I win" halfway through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish Jukai Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Well, when I meant more characters, I simply meant a six character party system and not a four character party system--- not the 8-12 character sub system that games like Final Fantasy has. For some reason, it irks me more than it should that I can only use four characters in a battle... not that it's stopping me from playing, I've played Avernum 1-6 and Avadon and enjoyed the experience, and overall they were better games than Exiles... but there was simply a less epic feeling to each game. Having six characters simply made it feel like you had more firepower in the 'me vs the world' feel of Avernum, it allowed you to realistically fight more foes and made it seem like you were going up against entire armies instead of fighting guerilla style against small roaming squads. I also don't believe you need more spells and more items for six characters, you simply have some redundancy and you can tactically choose what redundancy you need--- two tanks, two healers, a few hybrids, maybe a character devoted for lockpicking and scouting and speed and somesuch. I don't really know why Avernum went with the four party system, I remember e-mailing the question way back in the day to the designers and I didn't get a clear reply (although they seemed apologetic, which was nice, cause there was no reason to be) but I don't believe it has anything to do with the player, it's probably more a designer issue. Less characters means easier times making harder battles, as well as giving you less playable options so there's an allusion of more choices. Still, I got WAY too excited when I learned I could fight with five people in Avadon. Kinda sad, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I suspect one of the technical reasons for limiting the party to 4 characters was simply that when you enter a new area like a dungeon or cave and the game has to place your party, the placement algorithm goes a bit wonky if it has to place too many characters in too small a space. You can sometimes see this in Blades of Avernum when you have a full party plus NPCs tagging along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk DewdropsOTG Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 In Avernum you also generally fight fewer enemies in a group than you do in Exile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 True; compare the plains before the Ornotha Ziggurat in Exile II vs Avernum II. Same situation, fewer enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Much fewer, which, I think is a shame. Sure, we've two less party members, but... for my money, it's more epic to be fighting MORE enemies that threaten to overwhelm you with sheer numbers rather than a health reservoir that'd make lake Lake Mead blush. It gets much worse later on, though. Rather than fighting an army, you just get thrown up against irregular mobs with stupid, lumpy amounts of health. Rather than the elite force that saves the kingdom, I always feel like a band of toddlers ganging up on the baby sitter in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lilith Very, very old editions of D&D expressly advise the DM to appoint a player in the role of crier, but it didn't exactly catch on, mostly because most people didn't have such large groups that one was necessary. I remember that, though I think the term was "caller." I'm pretty sure we used, or tried to use, the idea even with smaller groups. But as you say, with larger groups it would be necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Kennedy Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Having a party of more than 4 characters may be difficult to display when they are in the world/exterior maps because the party is displayed shrunken down into a single square. Can't remember how it was done with NPC party characters in Nethergate, (did they follow you outside or were they restricted to staying in certain towns/maps?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 They followed everywhere, but I'm pretty sure they just plain didn't show up in the Outdoors. I could be wrong though - I don't have a saved game near Vanarium to test it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Nethergate had space for 6 characters in a roster. The player's 4 characters, 1 that you could get after the demo, and the occasional NPC. The NPC was restricted to certain areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Wait, your telling me that if you register nethergate you get an extra character slot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 No. Just as in some of the Avernums, you can have an extra character join you as a 5th PC, in Vanarium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 But I thought you had to have a PC wait in a inn and have that person come with you, and you cant have more than 4 in your party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 at A5 party had 2 helpers against boss at Harkins Landing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody madrigan Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: Earth Empires at A5 party had 2 helpers against boss at Harkins Landing. I always feel bad abandoning the rat. He gets stranded at the top of the stairs. I never should have named him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Celtic Minstrel Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: Trenton Uchiha, rebel servile. But I thought you had to have a PC wait in a inn and have that person come with you, and you cant have more than 4 in your party. Nethergate had six party slots, but only allowed you to create four characters when starting a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Nethergate has the four standard slots, one slot for one of two NPCs you can pick up in a town a couple of chapters into the game, and a sixth slot for area-specific temporary party members. There's no way to drop off a party member even if you want to. Avernum has never let you have five real party members at once. Some games give you an NPC who follows you around helping. The first three let you drop off party members and replace them with new members if you want, and they also let you recruit premade characters. Nethergate let you recruit premade characters into a slot specifically for them. —Alorael, who found this much more exciting for Romans than for Celts. Romans get the chance to pick up a druid. Celts just get their choice of fighters, and a fighter at the back of your lineup isn't quite as useful as one in the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musical Malpractice —Alorael, who found this much more exciting for Romans than for Celts. Romans get the chance to pick up a druid. Celts just get their choice of fighters, and a fighter at the back of your lineup isn't quite as useful as one in the front. What always bothered me was that there was no way to respec the 5th character. They didn't even show up in the editor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musical Malpractice —Alorael, who found this much more exciting for Romans than for Celts. Romans get the chance to pick up a druid. Celts just get their choice of fighters, and a fighter at the back of your lineup isn't quite as useful as one in the front. Numerinus at least made a decent javelin-thrower, and his starting Tool Use was handy sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 To the original question: Capture Soul/Simulacrum Move Mountains Obviously the former wasn't available until A2; I hope it will be in the next remake. And I really miss being able to knock things down. Although it was never strictly necessary, it gave you more options. And it was fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 ... I always imagined my tiny waif-like priest exclaiming "HULK SMASH!!!" any time they broke down a sufficiently large set of walls/barriers. >>; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves To the original question: Capture Soul/Simulacrum Move Mountains Obviously the former wasn't available until A2; I hope it will be in the next remake. And I really miss being able to knock things down. Although it was never strictly necessary, it gave you more options. And it was fun. Actually, Move Mountains doesn't show up until A2 either. There is no plot-centric reason for this though, so it could easily be included in A:EftP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Kennedy Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 It's great that the character editor is coming back, But I hope they will also include a cheat code that will give you the item specified IE "Gimme 357" will give you the item corresponding to entry 357 in the item table. This was sadly lacking from the later Avernum trilogy though it was included in the first trilogy as I recall. Of course you could make this cheat code not work with certain items like the orb of Thralni or Demon-Slayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 spamming move mountains was a lot more fun than scrolling for secret buttons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie spamming move mountains was a lot more fun than scrolling for secret buttons True Sight was a far sight better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Tirien Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 If there is anything new added, it must be bashing weapons. I miss smashing goblins with a club... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 i miss 'KILL' very simple title for a spell, and yet..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie i miss 'KILL' very simple title for a spell, and yet..... That always reminds me of the Arlo Guthrie song "Alice's Restaraunt" where he goes into the army recruiting office and talks to the 'shrink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 "Shrink, I wanna kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill." "You're our boy! But you really ought to be using Death Arrows." —Alorael, who always felt cheated when Kill didn't live up to its name. Maybe Grievously Injure would have made a better name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I also remember being disappointed by Kill. The spell description in Exile, and especially its placement as a level 6 spell back when spell levels mirrored AD&D pretty closely, made it sound like Finger of Death. But it wasn't at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The description, at least, was a bit more honest by the time it hit Geneforge, though the name was no less misleading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Only the LN die at median age "You're our boy! But you really ought to be using Death Arrows." death arrows just doesn't have the same ring as KILL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Curse death arrows. Kill gave at least 40 damage to the magic resistant people! and atleast 70 to all the others. Maybe 20 to a guard. I think its Really powerful spell. I always used it with my mage untill I switched to the amana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Death Arrows were kind of a let down, weren't they? The name is cool, of course, but the impact is lacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Rent-an-Ihrno Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 A spell that has a chance to kill one or more opponents instantly but does nothing if it fails may be a nice addition for Avernum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Eh, I'unno, I personally have a tendency to slink away from "insta-death" like spells like that. Sure, watching Mephistopheles scream in agony and DIE after he rolls a 1 against my Finger of Death might be weaponized hilariousness, but the only reason I would have even considered using it is because it still does SOME damage on the side even if it fails to completely disassociate my enemies organic systems with one another. I'm sure there are a lot of people who love spinning the metaphoric roulette wheel of such all or nothing spells, but I'm just not one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 fire....miss...reload game....fire....miss....reload game....fire....DESTROYED HIM.....next enemy.... that would be the effect of instant death spells with a high probability of failure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Callie Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I think that would be problematic because the designer would have to prevent certain NPCs from dying that way, otherwise the player would be way too powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Tirien Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I think Jeff would sooner add the Xian Anvil spell before he adds a boring instant death spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Micawber Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 There really is no reason for the anvil spell not to be featured in an Avadon sequel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 except for the fact that it is an avernum special Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Tirien Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie except for the fact that it is an avernum special Not really, I think somone in a AIMHack campaign had it as a spell as well, of course, they took it from Avernum 6, but who cares. Besides, you can easily replace "Anvil" with "Large Rock", which would smash just as well. For some reason, that has reminded me... I want Divine Thud back so freaking much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Ceiling Durkheim Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I recall Divine Thud being a fairly standard (if quite powerful) damage spell. Is it just the name that makes people so fond of it, or is there something I'm forgetting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Necris Omega Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 It's the combination of the name AND the effectiveness, really. That's why "Kill" is so popular, but "Death Arrows" is merely complained about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: FnordCola I recall Divine Thud being a fairly standard (if quite powerful) damage spell. Is it just the name that makes people so fond of it, or is there something I'm forgetting? Divine Thud was part of the reason for my Mad Monk Squad in the Exile scenarios; 3 fighter/priests and 3 priest/mages. This was possible since armor encumbrance did not interfere with priest spells. Kill is very effective against a single target, but being a mage skill, only three of my PCs could use it. Divine Thud is a strong area effect spell, and being a priest spell, that meant even my heavily armed and armored fighters could use it. Six Divine Thuds, 12 when hasted, on a mass of targets is truly impressive, especially when you consider encounters like the plains before the Ornotha Ziggurat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Callie Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I also loved giving all of my party divine thud. Plus, I found it amusing to blanket the battlefield in clouds of blades and laugh sadistically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Karoka Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hey, I do the same thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Deja vue all over again! Cloud of Blades was the ultimate in minefields. I guess that is what was most appealing to this former combat engineer. Tip toe, through the minefields with me ... HELP!! Someone get Tiny Tim out of my mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 How much damage does it do? Untill I get the full game code I dont have that spell >.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Not a lot of damage in a single round, but it lasts for several rounds, thereby accumulating a pretty fair amount of damage. Plus being an area effect spell, it attacks more than one enemy at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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