A:EftP - Things I'd love to see a return.

[VCH]

I hope the new quickfire will have the power to burn through wood doors. It didn't in the original series.

[Harehunter]

Not all the spells that were left behind in Exile were truly useless:

Mage spells:

Slow group - useful for those mass-combats

Kill - powerful attack mostly unblockable, cool name

Ravage enemy - slows and curses any enemy in the area of effect

Shockwave - Gets more powerful the further it gets away from you.

Protection - Put the total immunity on your 'tank' and watch him go

 

Priest spells:

Wound - a good, cheap ranged attack spell, completely unblockable; not even Garzahd was immune.

Ravage enemy - like the mage spell, but concentrated industrial strength on a single target.

Divine Thud - one of my personal favorites - would mostly overcome even the strongest armor.

Avatar (E2-3) - this was a good defensive spell, but it could only be cast on oneself; for a fighter to have this kind of one-shot boost he would have to be trained in level-7 priest.

 

Most of the cool spells that existed in Exile came out in E2. The area effect spells such as Wall of Blades or Protective Circle were particularly useful against mob attacks. Unfortunately, in Avernum, the 'mobs' are diminished or gone; therefore there is no real need for those spells, unless Jeff brings back the mobs of 20 or more.

 

Many other spells Capture Soul and Simulacra pertain very specifically in EA2-3 since we are dealing closely with the Vahnatai. While they are still interesting and useful, I don't miss them in A4-6.

 

There are many spells that were dropped because the plot points are not used, or implemented in the new engine. Ritual of Sanctify was useful only against Evil Altars. Move Mountains / Shatter - no crumbling walls or stalagmites. Sticks to Snakes? Cute but of limited use. Martyr's Shield - now we have riposte if you can get it. Getting/casting/cleansing webs was interesting. Magic Map/ True Sight - good for finding hidden passages; now we have visible buttons indicating a secret door is nearby. Mana - no waterfall warren or dark river, no need. Light - now we have candles/lamps/lanterns. Firewalk - no lava pools/rivers to cross. Identify - no objects of unknown capabilities such as cursed armor.

 

Many of the spells that were dropped in Avernum were variants. So instead of having increasingly more powerful spells available as you added skill level, you learn one spell and add levels to it.

 

There were other spells of limited useability. Who ever used Invisibility or Sanctuary? Once you started attacking something, the effect was lost.

 

Anyway, most of the cool, seldom used, mildly interesting spells did not come out until E2.

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

Kill - powerful attack mostly unblockable, cool name

Not any more unblockable than any other damage spell, according to the BoE code. Interestingly enough, this spell did end up in Geneforge.

Quote:

Divine Thud - one of my personal favorites - would mostly overcome even the strongest armor.

Quite good at high levels, but I'm not sure what armor has to do with it -- this deals magic damage, and like all spells that dealt magic or elemental damage, armor was completely ignored.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

don't forget long light

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

Not all the spells that were left behind in Exile were truly useless:
Mage spells:
Slow group - useful for those mass-combats

Slow affected all nearby enemies in Avernum 6, so this one didn't really get left behind.

Quote:

Protection - Put the total immunity on your 'tank' and watch him go

The higher levels of Arcane Shield in the first Avernum trilogy did give temporary invulnerability, but Jeff seems to have gradually decided that invulnerability is just too powerful to be in the hands of the players.

[Harehunter]

I have forgotten the nature of these spells. What I meant to say is that they inflicted enough damage that even a well protected foe would not be able to resist it entirely.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Harehunter

I have forgotten the nature of these spells. What I meant to say is that they inflicted enough damage that even a well protected foe would not be able to resist it entirely.

That isn't true either: a number of enemies were completely immune to magical damage, such as rakshasas and doomguards.

[Randomizer]

Recharge wand back when it was useful to keep and use wands instead of buying and making them. You could recharge them in town and rest up before leaving.

[Necris Omega]

I forgot about that one...

 

I'm thinking it likely did enough damage to the economy of the game to throw it out in the long run. If Wands in A:EftP are as effective as they were in the last Avernum, it would be unbalanced, I think, to have everyone armed with Rods of the Inferno with max charges at nearly all times.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

And let's hope they are that effective. I for one would rather not see a return to the days of Wand of 40 Watt Bulb and Wand of Wasting 5 AP.

[Necris Omega]

Yeah.

 

Honestly, I'd also be happy to see a return of items that have summoning capacities, even if summoning spells are still capped at two.

 

Thing is, I keep tripping over the fact that this is a remake of a game that actually had a lot of what we're asking for already, like Rods of Calling, so... I'unno. I guess it would still be a "return" if they did come back, but I think some of us are thinking more along the lines of stuff that got left behind a LONG time ago.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Avadon has summoning items as well.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

single summons

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

a number of enemies were completely immune to magical damage, such as rakshasas and doomguards.

This was why I loved Wound: unblockable damage against them. Of course, by the time I did face them, I usually had a few dial-wielding tanks.

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Recharge wand back when it was useful to keep and use wands instead of buying and making them. You could recharge them in town and rest up before leaving.

Yeah, I kind of miss that one too. However, it's possible to seriously unbalance a game by using Recharge on the right set of wands. If this spell ever returns, it should have limits as to which wands it will work on.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

First, my statement was a response to:

Quote:

Honestly, I'd also be happy to see a return of items that have summoning capacities, even if summoning spells are still capped at two.

...so I can't see how what you say would invalidate it.

 

Second, you could have two summons out at once, if one came from a wand and the other from a shaman's spell.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

Avadon has summoning items as well.

which are "very" helpful like giant rat.

[AethirWeb]

I have some things i really don't want in Avernum: EFTP, the mechanic in Avadon where an enemy is close to you and you and him can only move one space. That began to be very annoying, because my Blademaster was a terrible archer and Nathalie got all the good bows.

 

This really isn't a "I don't think should be added" but the Avernum: EFTP caves look like the Forsaken Lands in Geneforge 4, so Avernum looks like a huge desert underground than an actual cave. The cave of Avernum was pretty bland in colour, but this environment doesn't give a "Avernum" feel to it.

 

And the spells, i always loved the GeneForge 5 and Avernum spells. Avadon spells felt too weak. When my sorceress use the Cone spell "Steel Wind" it felt as if she was making concentrate wind breezes, and for some reason it was never very strong. A suggestion is to maybe add less cone spells or increase their power slightly, in over the entire game i never used a cone spell more than once unless it was the only spell i had left.

 

Finally i heard a new town was going to be added, as was talked about in my post. I hope the town isn't some new case scenario. It should be a additional town rather than part of the mainstream. It's like saying in an original version of a game the hero ventures into say "Lavale", then in the remake he goes to "Opealia" before he goes to "Kolington" and then to "Lavale". I don't mind new content but i like the game originally, i don't want some huge town sitting in the middle of my usually game path.

[*i]

Quote:

I have some things i really don't want in Avernum: EFTP, the mechanic in Avadon where an enemy is close to you and you and him can only move one space. That began to be very annoying, because my Blademaster was a terrible archer and Nathalie got all the good bows.

The stop after one space is about balancing combat, and preventing total mobility on the part of either side. You can actually form a front line in many cases to keep your spellcasters safe. Also, it makes running away more difficult. Finally, it makes archery actually useful.

I don't see a flaw in the game design because of your Blademaster. Jeff gave you the option in the system to allocate the points to make him a good archer. On the other hand, if, after allocating 8 skill points into archery, he was still a bad archer with a respectable bow, then you have a point.

[Slawbug]

The Blademaster actually makes a better archer than melee fighter by the end of the game.

[Necris Omega]

I tend to side on the path of greater mobility myself. When Geneforge lost its enfuriatingly restrictive AP requirements, the combat became so much better.

 

Having near by opponents slow you down and decrease your AP, smash you into goo, or some combination of the two would be preferable to being randomly glued to one spot due to escaping adjacency.

[Kyronea]

I agree entirely. The nature of combat in the Avernum series is turn based and it will stay turn based regardless of how mobile people are.

 

The lack of mobility attributed to being so close to an enemy would make it impossible to, for example, run away in the event you're up against something tougher than you can handle at the moment. I don't like being unable to run away. It frustrates a gamer.

[Necris Omega]

The more a player is able to move and act, the more things a player is able to do in a given turn, the more active they are in playing a game, the more they feel like they're playing. The more they feel like they're playing, the more engaged they'll be.

 

I prefer my combat to be more dynamic than the Avadon system. It's not a bad system, mind you, but I don't think it's ideal. Indefinitely locking a player's movement down is… it's not as bad as being slowed in the early Geneforge series, but it's a similar problem.

 

[Harehunter]

In Exile you had the option of ending a players turn, or waiting, thus preserving your action points until you had gone through all your PCs. Then the PC you waited on would continue with his remaining action points.

 

Another point on the multiple spells in Exile vs the multi-level ones in Avernum: you had more control over how many spell points you used. Minor Heal cost 1 point, Heal 3, Major Heal 5 and Resurrect 7. Depending on the damage you are trying to heal, you can adjust the level of healing and save on spell points.

[Necris Omega]

Ah, downranking.

 

The thing is, do not the subsequent levels of spells in Avernum remain the same in terms of costs?

 

... that said, I will say this, however - the system IS inconsistent in terms of Healing. That still has separate spells for the same exact effect, and is fairly inelegant.

 

Hm... That said, I would love to see it if higher levels of spells did have more exotic/added effects compared to their earlier versions, particularly with raw damage spells. Some spells did, like Bind Foe, but... I'unno. Maybe Bolt of Fire 3+ can add a small DoT or the like.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Kyronea

I agree entirely. The nature of combat in the Avernum series is turn based and it will stay turn based regardless of how mobile people are.

The lack of mobility attributed to being so close to an enemy would make it impossible to, for example, run away in the event you're up against something tougher than you can handle at the moment. I don't like being unable to run away. It frustrates a gamer.

Well, it's not impossible, you just need to sacrifice a party member to hold the line. This can sometimes be a tactically sound thing to do.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

thats how i killed the six elite guard by viscount verouche in avadon

i would gang up on one guy at a time and leave my shaman with the teleporting scarab in the back. when the two in front died i would teleport out of sight and exit combat. once we recovered i would start up with them again. and then rinse and repeat until i killed all of them

 

 

edit: the six guys outside his camp, not the guys with him

[Enraged Slith]

Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie

thats how i killed the six elite guard by viscount verouche in avadon
i would gang up on one guy at a time and leave my shaman with the teleporting scarab in the back. when the two in front died i would teleport out of sight and exit combat. once we recovered i would start up with them again. and then rinse and repeat until i killed all of them

Were you playing on torment? I simply ran in there and killed them all in a couple of turns.

[Necris Omega]

Sounds exploity. But, if you were playing on torment, (and I'm going to go with Enraged Slith in assuming you are) then... meh, whatever.

 

I remember doing that a few times in Dragon Age at some point myself.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

This may rub some of you the wrong way, but I would like to see the world of Avernum return to simplicity. What I mean by that is when Exile: Escape From the Pit came out, the caves looked rugged. The cities looked feeble and poor, which is I guess how they were supposed to be. It really seemed like you were really strugling to survive.

 

When Avernum 1 came out however, the caves seemed cleaner. There are roads coneecting all towns and forts instead of the rock paths. Every building is made of bricks and has floor.

 

All I'm saying is how about getting back to the ruggedness of the original Exiles.

 

Post #592

[Slawbug]

Amen.

[Necris Omega]

Simplicity in terms of terrain and appearance, not game play then.

 

Honestly, I think the cleanliness "problem" comes from the perfectly geometric walls Avernum's been host to. From the Screenshots, it really, really doesn't look nearly so clean cut. The floor still looks/feels a little too geometric in terms of the raised areas, however, and that could have also contributed to the problem.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

The ruggedness of the Exile's was due to the many rock piles littered around everywhere and its lack of roads. Exile 1 did have a few roads, but only in the towns.

The Avernum's pretty much got rid of the rock piles and instead of the 'paths' of Exile 1, you now have roads in the Avernum's.

Also adding to Exile 1's ruggedness was the Adobe walls that signified shoddy or quickly built buildings. The Avernum's only have the brick wall decor or the plaster wall with the red strip (like at the ToM).

 

Post #594

[Harehunter]

Exile did have a few roads, but they were only plain cave floor outlined by rock piles. Exile II introduced the first roads defined by the gray lines (brown ones in the 2nd version). Actually, the version 1 roads looked better.

 

And talking about rustic looking, the entire graphics set of the first version of Exile 1 and 2 really fit the bill. The version 2 graphics, which perpetuated in Exile 3 and BoE are more detailed and to my eye more aesthetically pleasing.

 

On the other hand, I really liked the addition of elevations in the 1st Avernum trilogy. It would be a good synergy to add that to the rusticity of the original Exile graphics.

[Enraged Slith]

Exile/Exile 2 just aren't the same without the original graphics.

[Slawbug]

Amen.

[Necris Omega]

In retrospect, I still have to wonder about the aqua cave floors and violet cave walls...

 

Too many mushrooms, I think.

 

That said, looking more into the graphics of the Screenshots, it looks like at least some of the walls appear to be made of irregular stone as opposed to clean cut bricks. The walls are still clean cut, mind you, but the effect is still better.

 

That said, I have to wonder how practical adobe really would be in the underworld looking at some of the issues of composition.

 

I'unno, I'm not an architectural engineer.

[Trenton.]

What do you mean? That the whole cave walls of AvXile where person made? And I think that A underground cave system would acctually have Differant colors. I mean, Maybe the Avernites/Exiles painted the underground for the boredom of grey

[Kennedy]

Hopefully the character editor will be making a comeback. Did Avernum 6 have one? I can't remember. Though if the skills get capped at a max of 8 It may cause problems if you max out all your skills and then gain a few levels.

[Randomizer]

I don't think with the new skill tree system that there will be character editor. There will probably be a place where you can retrain to redistribute points.

 

Avernum games always had a level cap, but hopefully with the extra skills it will be high.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Actually, Jeff mentioned that there will be a full character editor for the new game. Let me see if I can find the quote.

 

EDIT: Found it

 

Originally Posted By: Jeff

You are right. Including the ability to respec your character is a very good thing. Avernum will have a fully featured character editor to help with this.

 

- Jeff Vogel

 

Comment on August 3 from this blog post.

[Earth]

A6 has char. editor but 1st it needs to be activated and then get to use it via shift-d and typing editor.

[Necris Omega]

I honestly can't decide if I like the simple elegance of the A6 editor, or the greater versatility of the "classic" ones...

[Ceiling Durkheim]

I'm fonder of the old ones. In particular, I was peeved that the new editors don't include any options for lowering skills. Then again, one of my main reasons for feeling that way was because that would allow me to 'respec' characters if I made poor skill choices, so Avadon's retraining options covered that.

[Jukai]

Being a newbie, I pondered about only writing this in one thread of spouting it out in every identical "what do you want to see in in A:EftP" thread on this board.

 

After debating the pros and cons in my head, and then flipping a coin, I decided to reiterate what I've written before: MAKE MORE THAN FOUR CHARACTERS PLAYABLE!

 

With the four party system, I always feel like I'm not using everything I can use and I don't want to replay the game just cause I never had an archer. Hell, it can even be like Avadon where you mostly fight with four characters but can bring in more under certain circumstances.

[Earth]

6 chars splits exp given bit thin per char unless exp gains are increased.

[Slawbug]

Number of characters is pretty much irrelevant given the level-adjustment system. You'd barely notice the difference in levels attained between a 4- and 6-man party.

 

In the 80's and early 90's 6-man CRPG parties were very common and quite nearly standard: Wizardry and Might & Magic used them, among other trend-setting classics, and since the Gold Box games adopted them, so did the entire family of Gold Box-influenced CRPGs, including both Realmz and Exile. In the second half of the 90's, there was a sharp turn towards smaller parties, led by console games, that even today are more likely to have 3-man parties. This was an influential turn. I think larger parties tend to create more "logistics-adjusting" time for the player, which not all players like, and reduce options for the developer to create well-balanced enemy encounters.

[Earth]

equipping 6 chars would be also (bit) difficult if amount of good for example bows stays same.

 

of course exp getting spreaded between 6 won't matter if there's level cap.

[madrigan]

In AD&D 1e, wasn't the standard advice offered in the TSR-produced modules that the party should have two of each main character class? There were four main class categories. I don't know how it was for everyone else, but if I had a total of four people at the table it was a lot. You could run more than one character, of course, or the DM could run NPC party members, but at that time a party of 8+ characters seemed impractical from a gaming standpoint.

 

I think I'd like having six characters in an Avernum game, since the "dice rolling" and the monitoring of health/hit points and equipment is handled by the game. But four isn't an implausible size for a elite paramilitary unit.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: madrigan

In AD&D 1e, wasn't the standard advice offered in the TSR-produced modules that the party should have two of each main character class? There were four main class categories. I don't know how it was for everyone else, but if I had a total of four people at the table it was a lot. You could run more than one character, of course, or the DM could run NPC party members, but at that time a party of 8+ characters seemed impractical from a gaming standpoint.

Gary Gygax had a fairly idiosyncratic DMing style that never really translated very far outside the social context it began in. He tended to have a group of about six to ten players, sometimes even more, and one of them would be appointed the "party crier", whose job it was to work out what the party was actually planning on doing and relay that to Gary. Very, very old editions of D&D expressly advise the DM to appoint a player in the role of crier, but it didn't exactly catch on, mostly because most people didn't have such large groups that one was necessary.

[Kyronea]

The problem with having more party members is that there's just plain more to deal with. More to buy, more to sell, more time spent in each battle controlling each character...it can get quite hectic. It's resulted in me neglecting several characters in numerous RPGs, both JRPG and Western, where I'd just pick a few and stick with them over anyone else because it was simpler and easier that way. (Final Fantasy XII is one of the most recent that comes to mind, though in my playthrough of the International Zodiac Job System version I found it a lot easier to use all six people since each one was so specific, and thus more useful than six complete blanks.)

 

At the same time...there is something nice about having more people around, even if you don't use them, because it feels...good somehow. Not quite sure how to describe it. Almost like you're more powerful. Final Fantasy VI...I've played that a couple of times, and I don't think I could ever do the World of Ruin without going around and getting everybody, even if I didn't use some of them. (Mog, Umaro, I'm lookin' at you guys. Or rather, not, because I never use you.)

 

So I can see both sides to this issue. Still, if it's easier for Jeff to balance four people, I'd say stick with four. It's enough people, really.