Quick Note About Graphics

[Spidweb]

It is unfortunate that so many people don't like the Geneforge-style graphics (rendered with a program called Poser). I thought I'd say a word about what's happening with that.

 

Graphics and sound have always been our games' great weak point. Graphics are expensive. Hand-drawn graphics are very expensive.

 

So it was the greatest thing ever when we figured out how to use Poser. We are able to make reasonably neat animated figures (Linda does most of this btw) without spending a bajillion dollars.

 

But we are limited by the fact that it takes a lot of time to make them, and by the availability of premade models we can plug into Poser. This is why 3 of the PCs in Avernum 4 look so Geneforgy. We just didn't have time to make new PC models from scratch. As it was, we were rendering stuff right up to the release date.

 

At this point, Poser icons are the best solution we can find to a very real problem. And, to be honest, I really like them. The sliths and nephils in Avernum 4 are, in my opinion, the best those races ever looked.

 

The one thing that still causes me pain, however, is the chitrachs in Avernum 4. Having them look like clawbugs is Weak Sauce. But I wrote them into the game before I realized that I couldn't find a different, decent Poser model for a weird bug. The MOMENT I find one, that clawbug is SO out of there.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Lattan]

Any chance of an A4 update if that happens?

[Kelandon]

My understanding was that that was the point.

 

I'm searching right now to get some concept of what Poser is and how to find graphics for it. Then I'll start looking for an insect-like graphic.

[Lilith]

Jeff, the lack of graphics is one area in which BoE/A designers should have a lot of sympathy for you. Even though the lack of variety in graphics does sometimes detract from the game, I personally can't really fault you for having difficulty finding/making large numbers of good graphics.

[Kelandon]

And it helps a lot when you explain yourself. When you say that you didn't like having the chitrach graphic there but you had to in order to ship in a reasonable amount of time, that makes sense to me. When I don't know that about a particular aspect of a game, it's a little harder to form an opinion about what you've done.

 

Needless to say, your last three posts have made you go up a lot in my estimation.

[Alorael at Large]

I still happen to think that the Geneforge-style graphics are the best that Spiderweb has had. Even non-chitrachs don't change that, although a chance at real praying mantis types is great.

 

—Alorael, who is also happy to have new knowledge of Linda's job. If she makes graphics, she's not out plotting evil and lead piping baby seals.

[VCH]

I would rather see new human party graphics, than the clawbug thing changed. The Slith and Nephilim are really great. Humans need the same treatment. Although these are all minor issues any way.

[Aoslare]

*nod nod* It's very reassuring to hear you don't like the chitrachs, either.

 

If you put more time into the graphics, though, the PC graphics should *really* be the first ones to work on. The nephil and slith graphics are nicely done -- but it's frustrating to see so many available for enemies and so few for the party. Particularly when nephils are almost categorically the most advantageous race -- 2 options leaves a lot to be desired.

 

If nothing else, why not allow each race to choose any graphic? A nephil in a suit of armor is going to look more like an armored human graphic than a furry nephil graphic anyway.

 

-- who you may want to ignore, since he's one of the silly people who still prefers pre-Exile III graphics. They created such a great atmosphere.

[Spidweb]

Any future Avernum graphics will have PC designs. PC graphics, however, take up the most time by FAR. A monster takes a day or two. A PC can take two weeks. They take longer to render, and there are more poses to do.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Donald Hebb]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
The one thing that still causes me pain, however, is the chitrachs in Avernum 4. Having them look like clawbugs is Weak Sauce. But I wrote them into the game before I realized that I couldn't find a different, decent Poser model for a weird bug. The MOMENT I find one, that clawbug is SO out of there.

Amen.

The giant also confused me at first- what is that thing on its back?

And a comment in general- most of the attack graphics look a bit uninspired. A giant is mildly punching me? I'm poking the enemy with my sword? If you could use Poser to give more dramatic motions to attackers, it'd be a nice improvement.

EDIT: Also, I know that you have to use color shifts because you lack models- okay. But could you vary the colors in each monster a little? Fighting blue blob after pink blob after green blob... Blech.

[Lilith]

Which brings up another point -- the slimes always looked kinda like cabbages to me.

 

I'm not really sure how one would do a good slime in GF-style graphics, though. Oh well.

[VCH]

Yo, it costs 25 quid whatchu want?

 

I'm generally satisfied. As A4 is just the beginning, things should only improve. Cabbages?

[Contra]

The graphics from Geneforge don't bother me as much as so many graphs were just ripped clean off. Clawbug, Gazer, Drayk, etc. Of course, you did add a whole new line of creatue-graphs, which I hope we will see in G4.

[Istara]

The graphics looks fine to me. I miss the blonde haired man and woman though. Any chance of them coming back?!

[Student of Trinity]

I'd rather have roamer hellhounds and clawbug chitrachs now than pure made-in-Avernum graphics six months from now. If I can get both, that'll be nice.

 

I wonder whether Jeff might actually be able to get some donated graphics help -- all rights signed away for $1 kind of deal -- from community members who would be happy to do it. He could bill it as a contest: "See your monster in A5!"

[Mivayan]

Quote:

Any future Avernum graphics will have PC designs. PC graphics, however, take up the most time by FAR. A monster takes a day or two. A PC can take two weeks. They take longer to render, and there are more poses to do.

- Jeff Vogel

I sort of liked the old version where there only was one attack and one non-attack image of each character. It felt more abstract.

But would be hard to go back to now that I'm used to seing where the character is looking.

[Sicadastra]

My 2 cents:

 

I think the PC graphics look pretty good, its the lacking variety compared to the previous Avernum games I dislike.

 

The enemy graphics from Geneforge don't bother me as I have played Geneforge for exactly 14 minutes (just didn't dig it).

 

My biggest graphic complaint... the item graphics changing! Sure, I got over it by the end of the demo portion, but I get confused when suddenly healing potions look like energy potions and all the graymold I'm seeng is actually some other herb. And yes, I am too lazy to open the game up and actually check which ingredient is using the old graymold icon.

 

Finally, I appreciate Jeff posting in this way.

[Aoslare]

Years ago, a foul incantatrix put a curse on all the caverns, making potions, herbs, and small items of all variety take on a different appearance every time somebody looks at them.

 

No doubt this was part of the reason identification was so necessary in the early days of the kingdom. We should all be thankful for Rita and Patrick's scholarship -- but even they were not powerful enough to break the curse, it seems.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
I wonder whether Jeff might actually be able to get some donated graphics help -- all rights signed away for $1 kind of deal -- from community members who would be happy to do it. He could bill it as a contest: "See your monster in A5!"

I'd bet there'd be plenty of participation. I have no idea how the legal side of this (signing away rights) works, but I'd bet that one could work it out without much trouble.

We've had graphical artists adapt to the different formats of BoE and BoA, so I bet they could adapt to the Poser format (whatever that format is).

[Lilith]

Poser's a fairly popular 3D modelling and rendering program, designed specifically for making models of humans. I believe that Brett Bixler has a copy, although he's not around as often as he used to be and I don't know if one could talk him into helping make graphics for A5.

[Flake]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:

Quote:

Originally written by Student of Trinity:
I wonder whether Jeff might actually be able to get some donated graphics help -- all rights signed away for $1 kind of deal -- from community members who would be happy to do it. He could bill it as a contest: "See your monster in A5!"

I'd bet there'd be plenty of participation. I have no idea how the legal side of this (signing away rights) works, but I'd bet that one could work it out without much trouble.

We've had graphical artists adapt to the different formats of BoE and BoA, so I bet they could adapt to the Poser format (whatever that format is).

It shouldn't be too difficult, a signing away of one's IP/CP isn't too painful/difficult if the person is willing to do it. Also if Jeff is willing to add contributers to the credit page or an extra credit page people would be more willing to do it.

[ef]

'Poser' is expensive. 'Blender' on the other hand is open source and free, well documented, and comes with a lot of tutorials and support for both Mac and Windows.

Blender.org

[Flake]

Now that I've had a chance to play the game a bit I can see what people are talking about. Interesting. I haven't gotten far enough through to see any creatures having graphics from the Geneforge universe, but the obvious ones from the beginning don't really bother me.

[ef]

Quote:

But I wrote them into the game before I realized that I couldn't find a different, decent Poser model for a weird bug. The MOMENT I find one, that clawbug is SO out of there.

I don't know, if Jeff Vogel still checks this topic. But just in case - I may have come upon something. DAZ produces almost all of Poser's models. Go to their website, which is daz3d.com and browse through their animal galleries. You'll find an ant and a mosquito that can both be morphed into decent chitrachs. (In case they should not be Poser format, but DAZ only: they have their own studio, much like Poser, just a bit less complex and downloadable for free.)

[MacProject]

Recently downloaded the Avernum 4 Mac demo and became instantly addicted after a brief hiatus from the series. IMO, I like the Geneforge-esque graphics. Granted, it took some time to get used to , but all in all I think Jeff made the right decision.

[Silent Motion]

Quote:

Originally written by Thuryl:
Poser's a fairly popular 3D modelling and rendering program, designed specifically for making models of humans. I believe that Brett Bixler has a copy, although he's not around as often as he used to be and I don't know if one could talk him into helping make graphics for A5.

I could have my arm twisted. I use Poser right now to make custom animations for Second Life. If someone can point me in the right direction for the types of poses needed (in addition to the game itself) I'll take a look.

There are PLENTY of people using Poser who would do this for free, even sign a simple contract, IMO.

[Kelandon]

Well, as the first post indicates, Jeff's looking for a model for a weird (chitrach) bug. If you know of any, presumably he'd like to know.

 

If you were feeling particularly generous, you might refer him to the places where he might find such people who would make graphics for him for the fun of it.

 

(Sorry if I'm repeating information that you know. It just seemed worthwhile to repeat and summarize what's been said in this topic.)

[Croikle]

Actually, I made some chitrach graphics using Blender a couple days after this topic appeared, and sent them to spidweb@spidweb.com. I still haven't received any reply; should that have been spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com? (I just sent a note to that one now, actually, so we'll see if anything happens.)

 

I'll post what I have here for everyone to comment on; they're not final, and the colors and lighting aren't quite right yet (in particular, they don't stand out well against that yellow ground in the Eastern Gallery, and the back is a little light), but those can be quickly fixed and rerendered, along with whatever other suggestions people might have.

 

I don't know what the best way to put these into your game would be; I used ResEdit on a copy of 'Avernum 4 Char Graphics' to replace the clawbugs with these, but that's a bit technical. If you try, please make a backup copy of any file you start messing with. (I'm not inclined to host a 6.4MB file with the changed graphics, obviously)

 

Graphics:

Attack

Die

Flinch

Rest

 

I'd appreciate any constructive input you all have. Thanks!

[Alorael at Large]

I have nothing constructive to say, really. Those are some nice chitrachs!

 

—Alorael, who would much rather have them than clawbugs. Among other things, they're green. They also get the clawing right.

[Dikiyoba]

They're nice. The clawbugs graphics are good for clawbugs but can't compare with those graphics for chitraches.

 

Dikiyoba hopes it all works out.

[Aoslare]

Those do look really nice. *applause*

 

One question/suggestion: Have you tested to see if they look okay for the palette swapped chitrach variants? (Though I suppose they will look better than the clawbugs no matter what.)

[Croikle]

I've tried some. Plated ones look fine, darker as usual. The reddish one looks yellow, but so does the clawbug, I think. I don't know about the blue one in the fruit farmer's basement, or any other ones.

 

Thanks for all the positive feedback; it's nice to know I'm appreciated.

[ef]

I like the figure. Yes, you'd have to work on colour and shading, but as you said, that's not a big deal. I don't know what type of mesh you made - is the waistpoint movable (I mean, is it a joint or not)? If it were, I'd like to see more variation between the resting and attacking poses. But other than that, I wish I were as comfortable working with Blender as you seem to be.

[Croikle]

The waist can be moved without much difficulty. I actually did move it forward some in the attack animation, but not by much. It's a lot easier to see how it all works when it's in-game and actually animated, but I'm not sure what the best way to make that available for criticism. I guess simple animations would do, and would be helpful. Ah, maybe I'll do that tomorrow.

 

It's taken a lot of experimenting to be able to do this stuff with Blender, but it's fun now that I can make things like this. There's still so much to be learned, of course...

[Delicious Vlish]

Sheesh. If I had seen bugs like that when I first played the game, I would have cheered.

 

The Starship trooper moments would have been bearable at least with some pleasant bugs to look at.

[Spidweb]

I was out of town, so I was slow getting back about the chitrachs. I like them and hope to use them.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Archmagus Micael]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
I was out of town, so I was slow getting back about the chitrachs. I like them and hope to use them.

- Jeff Vogel

That's about the only GOOD thing about getting our games later. Us Windows users won't get all these "bad" graphics and the like. We'll get nice ones. Like those great-looking chitraches (I couldn't imagine playing Avernum and fighting Clawbugs).

Perhaps we could have a few more character models? I've read that there are so few of them it's like playing Exile 1. (or worse)

- Archmagus Micael

P.S. Could someone email me the graphics for Avernum 4 (only a few of monster + character). I'd personally love to give it a try. The only problem is I can't download the pics for teh game etc.

[Tool]

I'm an animation student, hand drawn and traditional stuff.

 

I have to say Avernum 3's graphics were far better, and I'd rather have no animation, and just pose to pose, than these terrible animations in A4. A3 had all these graphics for different situations, if they were wearing armor, using a pole weapon, sword, mace, oh it was beautiful, even if it wasn't moving.

 

Ideally you could go back to that and animate those. That'd be totally awesome, and look alot better. I know you could do an energy building trick to get them to be able to snap from pose to pose with minimal drawings, if you wanted to go that route again. It may or may not look better than no in between drawings.

 

Poser was originally made for painters and illustrators, so they could pose figures quickly and easily for reference in their paintings and illustrations. As such, I assume Poser has absolutely no real rendering options, merely because Poser things I've seen always have terrible surfacing. It wasn't really created at it's inception for professional final output, though it's quite popular among hobbyists. Perhaps it's the hobbyists lack of mental ray(if Poser even has that?) expertise that's the reason for bad surfacing, and not Poser itself.

 

It's a really sad trend, I think, of small time developers using cheap, low end 3D graphics instead of charming pixel art.

 

I wish I could 'intern' and make Jeff much better, principled animations for free(student's want work experience and credits desperately), but I can only animate(not rig, not model, not surface) in Maya.

 

I doubt I could integrate into Jeff's Poser workflow even if knew how to use it. I sure can't move to Seattle(that's where he is right?) . The pixel art way would have been possible but it'd take some learning of how to move from pencil art to pixel art. That was just a dumb fantasy of mine anyways; I've played Jeff's games since I was 8 years old and oh, wouldn't that be awesome?

 

I really play Exile/Avernum for the writing and the story, though. These are minor complaints.

[Corbec]

Quote:

Graphics and sound have always been our games' great weak point. Graphics are expensive. Hand-drawn graphics are very expensive.

I was never impresed by the graphics of Avernum. But without a major corprate backing you won't ever be able to produce impresive 3D models or beautiful cell shading anamation.

I say who cares. We never got up in arms about the graphics. We keep coming back for the seemless addicting old fashoned gameplay. The major improvement I saw between exile and avernum was an improved interface. Never once did I think "wow what nice graphics".

Though the poster art is "Better" from a strictly production aspect. It sticks out and is far less seemless than its older "lesser" progeneter. 3D models want to look ugly and fake it takes alot of work to trick the human mind for even an instant. I honstly think the new graphics make the game ugly not because of any flaw they have but because they don't match the world they are in. It would take scraping most of the current in game graphics and fully rendering them to give the models the feel that they belong.

In short 3D trades in the classic feel we all know and love for stuff that couldn't make you say wow ten years ago.

[Randomizer]

I didn't get A4 for the graphics. I wouldn't mind going back to A3 graphics if it would speed up production of A5 after Gen4 is released.

 

Having started with text based games like Crothers and Woods' Adventure, graphics are nice but not necessary. A lot of the first games like Ultima, Wizardry, and Might and Magic had static graphics but great plots and gaming systems.

[Aran]

And in many of the greatest games ever, the number of distinct game graphics is limited by 256 - the size of the ASCII character set.

 

Seriously, graphics make a game look great, but in quality RPGs - especially RPGs developed on a low budget, without an expensive team of artists to design it - they should take second place after gameplay and plot.

[Spidweb]

I am just bumping this thread because I've seen that some of the Windows users have the same questions as the Mac users about why the graphics look the way they do.

 

When I do Avernum 5, I hope to do at least 2 more human graphics and 1 more nephil and slith. Hopefully, 4, 2, and 2. We'll see how it goes. I want a player to be able to make an all-nephil or slith party with different icons.

 

I also miss the man and woman in the fur bikinis. :-)

 

- Jeff Vogel