Thoughts about Avernum 6?

[Feo Takahari]

I confess I didn't understand what Dark Fenix meant, but if he was talking about being able to type your own journal notes, I'd like that too. It'd be nice to be able to say, for instance, that there's a cache at such-and-such a place and I should come back and dig it up when I get more Nature Lore. (I suppose I could write this stuff down on paper, but I've always been very, very thrifty.)

[jlsgaladriel]

I think he wanted dynamic quest updates, so that progress would be monitored. "You've killed eight of twelve roamers!"

 

It's not especially necessary -- most of us aren't terribly troubled by having to count twelve roamers killed, or the like.

 

On the other hand, it would be ridiculously easy to implement updates in the dialogue box, given that the game is already keeping track of those variables. The downside is that the extra text would prove annoying to some gamers.

 

A journal quest-tracking implementation probably wouldn't be terribly involved, either, but would be more work than a dialogue implementation.

[Alorael at Large]

"Kill X critters" quests are rather unusual in Spiderweb games, though. More often they require you to retrieve a certain number of things from corpses, which already comes with a method of keeping track of your progress. Wiping out all of something is easy enough: if there are any left, you're not done.

 

—Alorael, who really thinks this counting makes much more sense in a game that relies on your killing respawning creatures. Avernum is not that game.

[Sss-Chah]

the darkside loyalists give me kind of a mafia feel, specifically with the dharmon guard. maybe that can be expounded upon somehow.

[Earth]

i saved quite often current convo if i got some odd quest or reward after done quest (like at A4 freeing that dragon at Harkin's Landing reward was that cap bit odd place).

[Dark.Fenix]

well the map could have an option to put/remove dots on the map, and also dots with diferent colots.

 

i for 1 had to take a printscreen of a full played game map and edit it with paint so i remember wich arcane/nature lore poinst i left behind instead of wondering the maps, same thing for barriers for later dispel with spell.

 

if we had this interactive map, it would be preaty easy to remember lockpicks, doors, AL/NL and whaterver points left behind.

 

if it would mess up programing or not i cannot say but i think this would save some trouble as not every1 would remember or give the trouble of doing what i did.

 

then again, its just an idea...

[Sss-Chah]

also, to complement my last post, since the hawthorne dynasty has officially ended, there are probably some factions other than the darkside loyalists who oppose emperor redmark's rule (or dorikas's rule if he became the emperor instead)

[Earth]

maybe some distant uknown cousin appears (he/she or either parent hid long time agi by Erika) and demands crown for him/herself (herself would be better since female leaders are quite rare at Avernum) and we travel around Avernum/upworld to find out if his/her demands have a point or not.

[jlsgaladriel]

Quote:

well the map could have an option to put/remove dots on the map, and also dots with diferent colots.

I think that's a good idea, Fen, even if a bit quickly typed up. Adding the ability to *comment* on the maps might take a bit of coding, but adding the ability to simply add coloured dots shouldn't take that much effort, I wouldn't think, and would add serious functionality.

Especially the first time through a game, when one isn't really sure of the lore requirements for an area, I can see how this would be really useful.

[Sss-Chah]

Originally Posted By: Earth2025

maybe some distant uknown cousin appears (he/she or either parent hid long time agi by Erika) and demands crown for him/herself (herself would be better since female leaders are quite rare at Avernum) and we travel around Avernum/upworld to find out if his/her demands have a point or not.

this would take some serious storyline tweaking unless either chevyn became smart overnight or starrus died without an heir or something.

[Vent]

Yes notes on map would be nice. In fact a more complete system could be quite cool:

• A nice encyclopedia implementation like seen in some RPG of the 00's.
• Ability to put notes on global map and automap.
• Ability to add in Journal dialog or messages like it's already done.
• Ability for the player to write an entry in the Journal or/and add comment to an entry.
• Ability for the player to take a snapshot of an automap part or terrain part, or even a NPC, and add it to the Journal as an entry, with a comment or not.
• And to give a nice in game tool to manage all of that for a quest point of view, the ability to link with quests, entry in the encyclopedia, entry in the Journal, map note. Well ok a sort of in game blog that could use the player to manage his quests.

In fact with such system implemented I'd like come back RPG that let player keep tracks of quests instead of having some automatic obvious stuff.

 

Typically the player listen a rumor and decide to make it a quest is quite different than listen a rumor and see it automatically added in the quest list.

 

EDIT: one or more entry of the encyclopedia would be about trainers and books, or at least the in game blog would let the player build this list easily.

[Øther]

Maybe the game would be based in an Avernum a bit past the Redmark/Dorkias rule, but there is a group calling themselves the darkside loyalists and are doing something against the empire.

[life is but a dance]

I would really like to see avernum 6 be above ground or at least partially above ground. Also bringing back the "out doors" would be great.

[Vent]

For a story/scenario point of view time travel would be an interesting base but organize a scenario around this could be quite tricky. Among possible tracks that time travel could open:

- Play with a dragon era, and an option would be to bring from the past some dragon because they have totally disappeared and this involved some weird unexpected consequences.

- If it's not already done in the series, it would allow play with humans Avernum era much before the 1st expedition.

- That would be certainly very difficult but Time travel could allow some scenario parts with an interesting use of action choices and choices effects.

- Not sure if this would be possible or not from a story point of view but Time travel could allow play with NPC seen in first Avernums.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Vent

- If it's not already done in the series, it would allow play with humans Avernum era much before the 1st expedition.

Not done since at E1/A1 Avernum is populated already although very hostile still (today is nothing compared to those days). What happened on those early days of Avernum is only told in some books (briefly) and by fanfiction.

[Dark.Fenix]

this have nothing to do with the gameplay and would certainly take a huge chunk of time but what about having 3 story books for the 1ºtrilogy. i did love the story of it while playing so i wouldnt mind reading it all.

 

how it wouldw be shared with players i dont know. sold? being given with A6? being given as bonus ending of A6? or just freely given on spiderweb site? that would be left for them to decide.

[Lilith]

Okay, so who's volunteering to spend a year or two writing them all?

[Alorael at Large]

Games make bad novels (and movies) as a general rule. Avernum lacks a compelling cast and its plot consists largely of background and fetch/kill quests. You'd either end up with a story no one would want to read or a story only loosely tied to the actual events of the games.

 

—Alorael, who would rather see the latter than the former, although he'd be happiest without either one. Enjoy the games. Don't turn them into something they aren't.

[Slawbug]

Some of Avernum's closest cousins are game-novel pairs, though. The Pool of Radiance series (and I think the Dark Queen of Krynn series as well, and maybe a few others) were novels and games. IIRC some of the novels predated the corresponding games, while some of the games predated the corresponding novels. The novels actually sold quite well. The games weren't any more novelish than Avernum, really; the novels just included characters and details not in the games, and left out other game elements.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Dark.Fenix

this have nothing to do with the gameplay and would certainly take a huge chunk of time but what about having 3 story books for the 1ºtrilogy. i did love the story of it while playing so i wouldnt mind reading it all.

It's already been done at least once. It definitely falls into the former category. (Fair warning: It's rated M for a reason.)

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

Are you sure you don't mean the stories by this author, which were previously posted here (and which no one should want to read)?

 

—Alorael, who agrees that one could make a good novel that was clearly based on Avernum games. It would require original work for everything but world-building, which defeats much of the purpose. Why retell a story that has been told just fine as a game when you could, for the same effort, tell a new story?

[Lilith]

Why would anyone ever title anything "Birth of a Nation" any more?

 

Originally Posted By: Bananafish Special: $4.99!

—Alorael, who agrees that one could make a good novel that was clearly based on Avernum games. It would require original work for everything but world-building, which defeats much of the purpose. Why retell a story that has been told just fine as a game when you could, for the same effort, tell a new story?

 

ahahahahahaha

 

ahahahaha

 

ahaha

 

aha

 

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Either this was a rhetorical question or you haven't read very much fanfiction.

[Alorael at Large]

No, I've encountered plenty of fanfiction. The question was mostly rhetorical, but I guess I'll answer it.

 

It's easier to novelize something that exists than it is to produce something original if you're not going to put in the effort to make something worth reading. Most fanfiction falls into that category. Judged on its own merits, it's awful. Judged as an adaptation—in a word, as fanfiction—it's acceptable.

 

—Alorael, who suspects that somehow fanfiction readers and writers derive pleasure that really has nothing to do with actual writing style, plot, or characterization from the production and consumption of fanfiction. Maybe it's a community/social pleasure instead of a literary one? However it works, while fanfiction can be good, it doesn't have to be and it isn't even expected to be.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Alorael

Are you sure you don't mean the stories by this author, which were previously posted here (and which no one should want to read)?

Yes, Dikiyoba did. Sorry.

[Dark.Fenix]

good point, thats VVhy i said a huge chunk of time

thanks for the replies

[Vent]

I'm starting A2 and when playing the beginning around Motrax I found this part well done, I don't know what to expect to follow but that's good point. In A1 I just remember one event like this, in the destroyed fort with the ghost that vanish.

 

It's quite strong but too much in fact. From this point of view it makes the rest of A1 a little pale in comparison.

 

It's writing quality, generating emotions but also suspense, tension, surprise, humor, curiosity. And for emotions for sure tricks around sadness is an easy tool but there's also for example revolt, happiness, and so on.

 

That could be obvious, but I don't feel A1 played much with those sort of tricks. It's possible that the series improved later on this. No book is needed for this, game like RPG can produce this sort of stuff even if some are very difficult to merge with the action of playing.

[Alorael at Large]

While A2 is generally better at pulling those emotional strings than A1, the game becomes much more A1-like in the fourth chapter, which is the vast majority of the game.

 

—Alorael, who is still baffled by chapters. It's as though Jeff started with the intention of chapters and then gave up after just a few.

[Randomizer]

Part of the idea of chapters is how Jeff releases the game to beta testers. Chapters represent break points where he can easily stop them while he adjusts the game balance without getting reports from all over the place. Also they represent how he views the game as being played even though the early games were nonlinear in allowing you to go anywhere that you could survive.

[Alorael at Large]

Chapters, or chapter-like sections of games, are prominent in A4-A5 and G4-G5 (I can't speak for earlier Geneforges). A2 has chapters that you progress through linearly until Chapter 4, which opens up all of Avernum proper and sends you on your merry way to do whatever you want. It has a chaptered structure that breaks down completely roughly 25% of the way in.

 

—Alorael, who finds the history of Spiderweb chapters interesting. E2 has an attempt and then a surrender to the E1 open style. E3 has distinct quests (plagues) and some order (slimes/roaches, then trogs+giants/golems, then alien beasts) but travel is still mostly open. Nethergate has explicit chapters, but travel isn't limited past the Gate Contract. Geneforge is probably where chapter-style gameplay really gets going. The islands of G3, perhaps?

[Slawbug]

I never really saw E2 as an attempt followed by a surrender. To me at least it seems clear that E2 was always planned as it was. Really, what was Prossis-Bok going to say, "okay, we know Exile didn't do it, but we're only dissolving the barriers in the Eastern Gallery"? The game flows fine.

 

The islands of G3 were the first real implementation of forced chapters, though I would trace the idea back to E3, with its provinces each with its own unique enemy type and major quest. Regardless, G1 and G2 did not have anything remotely resembling chapters, unless you count the demo area as a chapter.

[Vent]

Originally Posted By: Quieter Places

While A2 is generally better at pulling those emotional strings than A1, the game becomes much more A1-like in the fourth chapter, which is the vast majority of the game.

I wonder if you use "emotional strings" as a sample shortcut or if that really summarize all. That's certainly the easier part or the more obvious but I don't think that stuff like story surprise, suspense, mystery, tricks to rise the curiosity, mind games and more are related to "emotional strings". Even humor, is it an emotional string? I quickly give a look to a definition of emotion and didn't found humor nor the other but surprise. I'm not very clear about what make a story more than good but it's clearly not just emotions.

A nice example was a few morale choices you have to do in Mask Of The Betrayer, choices for each where is the "good" morale choice isn't obvious at all. Here is a trick that can raise the appeal of a story but even more of a game scenario where unlike in a novel the player has to really do a choice.

Another example is a mind game with time travel paradox that you can find in a novel like "The Anubis Gates" by Tim Powers. A nice story with emotions and more but also few fine mind games around time travel.

Clearly western RPG tend to under use "emotional strings" when many JRPG tend to abuse a bit of this. But there's much more ways to make a story more than good. And a game scenario of RPG could take profit of those tricks too.

[Sss-Chah]

choose your own adventure books were awesome.

[Slawbug]

Scorpius posted a choose-your-own-adventure book on the forums once. IIRC it was about Super Mario.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

I forget which one it was, but I have another book in the series, "Pipe Down!", on my shelf next to my computer. It was my favorite book in elementary school.

[Vent]

Do you mean books like that?

http://www.projectaon.org/en/Main/Home

I tried some when I wasn't anymore so young and tried few from the url quoted. Well I don't remember that paper help those game have a better writing quality. Well at least for me some computer RPG have a quite better writing quality.

[Slawbug]

No. We mean exactly what we said.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_your_own_adventure

[Vent]

Lol so it's exactly that sort of book I quoted.

 

The url I quoted is a series of book like described in the wiki. Those book had been released as book.

 

And much later the author agreed that some people make a html version of them and put them free on the net.

[Alorael at Large]

Lone Wolf is more of an RPG in novel-esque form. You control a character with abilities, equipment, and health. You make choices, but they are limited by your character. Most gamebooks, including the one Scorp posted, simply present choices that you may make as you choose; many cast you, the reader, in the starring role rather than as the controller of another, pre-determined entity.

 

—Alorael, who thinks the simple test is whether the book would translate better as an RPG or a point and click adventure. It's too bad there isn't any generic name for the difference.

[Sss-Chah]

maybe the forum can start a new buzz word by naming it.

[Vent]

Ok I see what you mean but just don't do the fights and refuse decisions from dice and you get a "choose-your-own-adventure" book.

 

EDIT: About gamebooks most was more like cyoa I don't rememeber that at all. For example there was many Jackson/livingston books that was more like wolf books.

[Alorael at Large]

That would be Fighting Fantasy, Vent.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't mean choices by dice or by combat so much as choices by character. Did you choose the right power or did you pick up the right artifact for this encounter? If yes, turn to X. If no, turn to Y. You can cheat, but then you're not playing right (and you can get caught in loops).

[Slawbug]

Don't do the fights, refuse decisions from dice, skip the entire section on creating your statistics, ignore all references to your statistics... based on the web site, that seems to cover most of the books.

 

Just in case it's not clear, "Choose Your Own Adventure" is a specific brand of gamebook, not a type of gamebook. To make an analogy, Shadowrun is not D&D, although both are pnp rpg's. I think those two probably have more in common, though, than what's being compared here.

[Sss-Chah]

vent, this is the type of book that we mean:

http://www.boraski.com/zork/index.html

it's not from the "choose your own adventure" series, or even made by the same company or author, but it's the same type of book. it's not the first book in the series, but it's the only book of this type that i could find with minimal effort that you can actually read online. interestingly enough, it's the only book in the series that i've actually read. as said before, you can cheat, but this book has an ending that can catch you if you do.

[Toby-Linn]

One of my favorite fan fiction authors, Rushlight, did a Vampire Chronicles (remember the Anne Rice series?) story that was in a choose your own adventure format.

 

Rated R though, so no minors!

http://www.slashcity.org/rushlight/cyoa/cyoafront.html

[Vent]

Both (Zork and Wolf) are clearly games and none is better written than the other. I don't see more. But again I agree one has RPG elements and not the other.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Vent

Both (Zork and Wolf) are clearly games and none is better written than the other. I don't see more. But again I agree one has RPG elements and not the other.

We're not trying to say that one is better than the other, we're just saying that they're different. Geez, don't be so defensive.

[Vent]

Lol ok but then how many time I should write that I have seen the difference? Despite this, I still feel them quite close.

 

When looking from fictions written in English I found this surprising free reading, it seems ok so I quote it:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/267621/Borges-Jorge-Luis-Labyrinths

 

You perhaps already read it, it's a classical, Labyrinths by Jorge Luis Borges.

 

EDIT: I just read the first story, so in English, just a naive reading but dam that was cool. I laugh so much and in parallel I was constantly tempted to play the game with the author and quite often get imagination exploded by the mind games and the (certainly) false constructs that look so right (sometimes). I have read many stories from this author but in my native language, cool to quote I can appreciate even in English.

[Carranzero]

1 thing: bring the phil foglio drawings back, they kick ass!

[feline monstrosity]

I would definitely like to see the open world we had in the early games return; Spiderweb Software games seem to have been getting more and more linear (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). A return to the surface might be nice also.

Oh, and I liked the old control system better too, it was much better suited for he turn-based engine.

[Sss-Chah]

maybe some of the creatures from past games like rakshasi or something?