Thoughts about Avernum 6?

[Øther]

Yes, but it would be easier if you could have basically different characters,so you could pump a few stats skyhigh instead of spreading them out more. Plus, it would make combat a bit easier, being that there are more of you.

[Lilith]

Well, yes, a party of 6 would make the game easier than a party of 4. A party of 12 would make the game easier than a party of 6. Where do you draw the line?

[Karacan]

Well, of course there'd have to be a few more enemies as well.

 

I did wonder why all the enemy mages and priests basically were on their own.

 

 

True, with careful planning you can build hybrid characters - if you played the game at least halfway through once. Considering that most people are likely to only play a game once (I know I need a year's break before tackling a lengthy game again), I at least would have probably seriously messed up any hybrid builds. And still would have used the hybrid builds for their primary tactical role - either as ranged/aoe damage dealer, as damage soaker, as healer, and as "something that probably dies a lot and doesn't do anything, really, but has tool use and the extra inventory space is useful as well".

 

That's why I prefer having more than the four classic slots available - it gives easier access to true customization, and with the freedom of skill allocation, I always found that customization of characters was at the heart of any Spiderweb-Game.

 

I'd just love to see a game returning to those roots while keeping the snazzy new stuff - and as I said, one of my favourite activities in any crpg is designing characters and then seeing how well the different character concepts work together. This is much more fun with more slots than just four. And it's just a wish, not a demand.

 

 

Is there any kind of tentative rumoured first release date idea for Avernum 6, by the way?

[Randomizer]

Avernum 6 for Mac will probably be out in November 2009 and Windows version in March or April of 2010. Jeff hasn't started testing Avernum 6 since he just called for Geneforge 5 for Windows beta testers.

 

Jeff did once say that he has the plot worked out, but that still leaves all the dialog and general coding to make the map.

[Øther]

Quote:

Well, yes, a party of 6 would make the game easier than a party of 4. A party of 12 would make the game easier than a party of 6. Where do you draw the line?

A party of 6 would make things easier and a bit better, even though there would definitaly have to be more enimies about also.

A party of twelve, however, would be illogical. With the weapons and armor, I tend to give the best to my first character, and let the rest slowly dribble through the ranks until it hits my fourth, who usually doesn't have that good of stuff. If I had twelve, at end game my last character would probably have only the most basic armor and a weak weapon, with almost no good spells. Since there is never to much money, it would be extremely hard to buy good things for the later people. The extra people to attack with and meat shields might be good, but the group of people would be way to big.

[Alorael at Large]

Four characters forces more choices with fewer skill points. Four characters also means less crowding in battles and more hard decisions about your meat shield to squishy ratio and where the tanks go to keep the fragile characters safe. It could all be arranged for six characters as well, but as long as Jeff is used to and comfortable with four there's no compelling reason to require dangerous balance adjustments.

 

—Alorael, who remembers that Sword Dream 3D did very little to cap your party size. You could throw armies at your foes. It wasn't terribly fun.

[Lilith]

The original reason that Jeff cut down the maximum party size to 4 is that any more than 4 characters would sometimes make the algorithms used to place the party when they entered town or exited combat soil themselves. You can see this in BoA when you have an NPC in the party and enter a town with a narrow corridor at the entrance: the game will occasionally place you in entirely the wrong position, like outside the town boundaries.

[Slawbug]

Is that really the only reason? I had assumed it was because the ratio of potential skill sets to potential characters with Exile ended up being a lot lower than originally intended.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Karacan

... and not one of the choices made along the way mattered in the end. What a waste of storyline potential!

If you took Gladwell's geas and kept those to end of game it mattered and if you joined to that Trade company that mattered too, dunno if having Anama's geas mattered at end. Joining to Darkside Loyalists of course brought different ending.

[Dark.Fenix]

dual weild wont be back cause it would turn pole useless, u already got assassination but with a diferent name.

 

my favorite game still remains exile2, but think on the vast number of enemies u had to fight each batle with a party of 6. a party of 4 restricts options but also improves ur tactic to play the game with only 4.

 

if they went back and use 6 then they would have to raise the monsters numbers leading to huge problems due to the fact that there is no more in/out like in exile where each doungeon and outdoor batle was taken into another "room".

 

it still sucks the raise of point skills needed per lvl but that also forces u to take more logic solutions like just buying 3/4 lvls of arcane lore in each char instead of having 1 with 16.

 

 

1 thing i would like to see fixed, having 1sword and 1 shield doesnt mitigate a lote of dmg unless under various melee atacks (and in this case ur char proly wouldnt survive), i for 1 only used them on casters for stats, my melee always wear poles.

maybe given a more %of armor or something more substational like block change and this would leade to a trait "shield bearer" wich could give 1 rispote every 8lvls or everytime u block ur foe gets of balance and ur next melee cause double dmg (like a critical hit).

this would give some more use and give a logical use of swords and shields. i might be failing to see or understand how good a shield and be completely wrong on what i said but the idea of given shiels a more relevant and better role on fights still remains

 

 

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

Liches are wizards who magically extend their life, so Dorikas can't be a lich.

No...but I could! That would be a little plot twist now wouldn't it? Besides, I'd like to be a good Lich who still works for the good of Avernum.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Arch-Mage Solberg

No...but I could! That would be a little plot twist now wouldn't it? Besides, I'd like to be a good Lich who still works for the good of Avernum.

Solberg is closer to Lich rather than human.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Since when are Lichs mages who extend their lives? Where did you get that from? I'm pretty sure Lichs are undead revived using alot more magical energy, as they were powerful wizards in life and could be so in afterlife. I believe it is mentioned somewhere in the Avernum Trilogy that it takes a few evil mages/priests(?) to resurrect/create a lich - so no self-lichification.

[Feo Takahari]

I believe it says when you meet Solberg in A5 that he's become part-undead. Anyone want to find the quote?

[Student of Trinity]

I think there's an excellent chance that Solberg figures in A6 as a Monarch-like arch-wacko who has to be killed no matter which side you're playing. Unless, perhaps, there is actually a choice to support Solberg against everyone else. Anyway, he finally goes completely paranoid, and starts sending out monster plagues from his deadly underworld base. The Stealth route past him should involve getting Cheeseball XVII to rebel. But I'm not seeing Solberg as the ultimate main villain. Somehow he has just never carried enough charisma for that kind of role. He has always been a bit pathetic.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Well, the reason for Solberg not "carrying enough charisma" has never been his magical abilities, but his attitude. His politics were always pro-Avernum, but unlike Erika, he seeks to stabilize and pacify.

 

A good guy turning into a bad guy not despite, but because of his goodwill is one of the most interesting phenomena that can be put into any kind of plot - but Solberg's way of working for Avernum is a slow, defensive, and actually quite conservative one. There is no plot-point to be found anywhere in Avernum 1-5 that would justify him turning into an evil madman.

 

If Solberg was a villain in Avernum 6, the whole game would be spoiled to me.

[Toby-Linn]

I think General Redmark will be the villain. Pardon, Emperor Redmark. I never liked him, even when I worked for him in A5. Remember he took over Dorikas' fortress so he has a hidden base in Avernum.

 

He is not as benevolent and nice as Empress Prazac, and I think he has his own evil plans for Avernum.

 

Hopefully we will also see the surface again and meet the dragons (including Melanchion). Maybe they'll kill off another dragon like they killed Motrax in A2.

 

It would be nice to have a choice between playing Avernites or Empire soldiers, I do prefer playing as an Avernite though.

[LupusFlame]

There's not exactly a lot of dragons left to kill off. Most retreated below Avernum didn't they?

[Alorael at Large]

They disappeared somewhere, but I doubt they're advertising their location. Still, we've got Sulfras, Khoth, and Athron of the five originals, Melanchion from A5, and it's always possible that Jeff will pull out a few more of Athron's brood.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't think Solberg's problem is lack of charisma, precisely. It's passivity shading into insanity by A5. In A1 he runs and hides from the Tower of Magi problems. In A2 he's still in hiding, mostly. In A3 he's overlooked and bitter, but he still hasn't done anything. In A4 he's put in a thankless job and is still bitter about it, but he doesn't use his presumably significant power and connections to do anything else. In A5 he's finally running a show, but he's also only questionably stable. He'd be best as an incompetent minor villain.

[Randomizer]

Solberg is the tragically flawed hero not the villain. He tries to help, but in the first two games he spends his time hiding. The third is pure teaching post. The fourth is paper pushing administration to keep him out of the way.

 

Then we have the fifth game where he is in control, but his decisions cause more problems then they solve. Solberg is blinded to his faults and blames others for the flawed execution of his plans. Even the later Cheeseballs see that there are problems, but can't get Solberg to acknowledge them.

 

Now as a villian, he is a mastermind in getting others to do his dirty work while he remains an apparent innocent. Maybe he had been prompting Linda to do the work that he didn't want to risk himself. This way when things went wrong, Linda got the blame while he could become a hero by sending the PCs in to fix it.

[Slawbug]

There's also Pythras from VODT.

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno

Since when are Lichs mages who extend their lives? Where did you get that from?

I didn't say he's a Litch, I said his closer to Litch than human and that's because he has extended his life and looks like living dead. Maybe Zombie would be better term than Lich.

[Øther]

There is a probablem with Solberg and Redmark reapearing in A6, what if you joined the Darkside loyalists in this game? I don't think Jeff makes new games in a series that can contradict an ending in the prievious games.

[Slawbug]

Bzzzt! See Geneforges 2, 3, 4, and 5.

[Øther]

Well maybe in that... but what about in the Avernum series? Or am I just plain wrong?

[Student of Trinity]

Solberg would have to go crazier to become a villain, but I think he could make the stretch. He's pretty loopy as it is. And it must be so frustrating to have his one great work, the defensive achievement he must have been dreaming of for ages now, collapse on him. I could see him flipping out, in his own weird way.

[Øther]

But if he dies in A5?

[Lilith]

If Jeff decides that he dies in A5 then he'll be dead in A6 (unless he's undead). If Jeff decides that he doesn't die in A5 then he might not be dead in A6.

 

You could kill Solberg in EVERY game in the Avernum series if you wanted to. He still kept coming back in later games. What's your point?

 

There's also the obvious fact that Jeff has to contradict one of A5's endings in A6 anyway, because either Dorikas or Redmark will be emperor, but not both of them.

[Goldengirl]

I hope Jeff doesn't kill Solberg. He, and Tor, are my favorite characters.

[Øther]

Well in getting one of the endings,( I don't know if you have to do it or not, but it was suggested that the leader of that faction that doing it would please him) I killed Solberg, so in one of the endings Solberg should probably be permantly dead.

 

Maybe Jeff will make the game so it doesn't include Solberg, and whenever they refer to the emporer, they will say just "The Emporer" instead of Redmark or Dorkias.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior

Well in getting one of the endings,( I don't know if you have to do it or not, but it was suggested that the leader of that faction that doing it would please him) I killed Solberg, so in one of the endings Solberg should probably be permantly dead.

It's not necessary to kill Solberg in order to join the Darkside Loyalists. There are other things you can do to win their favour instead.

Quote:

Maybe Jeff will make the game so it doesn't include Solberg, and whenever they refer to the emporer, they will say just "The Emporer" instead of Redmark or Dorkias.

Considering that A6 is probably going to be about the Darkside Loyalists again, going through the whole game without mentioning who actually won the conflict between the Empire and the Darkside Loyalists in A5 would be really stupid.

[Alorael at Large]

I don't think you can actually kill Solberg in every Avernum. In A3, at least, he's protected in the ToM and I believe he's also protected in the Portal Fortress.

 

—Alorael, who also wouldn't count too much on endings. Jeff has shown himself to be quite willing to rely on endings that aren't quite any of the offerings when writing sequels.

[Dark.Fenix]

a lilte off topic: who is ALORAEL?????

[Lilith]

Alorael is the guy who signs all his posts with the name Alorael. Is it really that hard to work out?

[Alorael at Large]

Me.

 

[Edit: Posted simultaneously and nearly identically. How about that?]

 

—Alorael, who still struggles with the idea that this is somehow difficult. He does, after all, sign all his posts.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Alorael (who's identity really isn't that much of a mystery. One could always use the search-function.) describes it perfectly. Solberg is completely passive. He's turning mad by A5, sure, but there's no aggression, no destructivity or, well, evilness in general in his actions. He's wasting away, that's all.

While his sense of good and bad turned a little grey, a major plot twist is absolutely necessary for him to become a villain, and even then, the whole story would be a little weird.

 

On the other hand, the story would at least be big enough to complete the second trilogy. I'd be very disappointed if A6 was about some petty power struggles within parts of the Empire or a single vahnatai lunatic. I mean come on, where's the drama? Haven't we learned anything from the greeks?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno

Alorael (who's identity really isn't that much of a mystery. One could always use the search-function.) describes it perfectly. Solberg is completely passive. He's turning mad by A5, sure, but there's no aggression, no destructivity or, well, evilness in general in his actions. He's wasting away, that's all.
While his sense of good and bad turned a little grey, a major plot twist is absolutely necessary for him to become a villain, and even then, the whole story would be a little weird.

He'd make a pretty good bonus boss for an expert area, though.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Ooooh...! The walls are whispering 'Generic dungeron'!

[Alorael at Large]

He'd probably whine about how unappreciated he is all the way to the grave.

 

—Alorael, who hopes for something truly inspiring as a sendoff (again) for Spiderweb's flagship series (sort of). Vahnatai creationism justified by time travel facilitated by the spirits of Rentar-Ihrno, Aimee, and Cheeseball the First wouldn't go amiss.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

There's also the obvious fact that Jeff has to contradict one of A5's endings in A6 anyway, because either Dorikas or Redmark will be emperor, but not both of them.

Didn't Jeff say something along the lines of the Darkside ending not really counting somewhere?

Dikiyoba.

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

In Exile/Avernum 3, there are two major NPCs that can die or not die depending on your actions. Both are dead in Avernum 4.

[Student of Trinity]

It's easy to suppose that somebody died some other way, after surviving the player in the previous game. It's harder to picture someone you killed having come back to life in the meantime. For that you just have to accept that you're in a different continuity. So, arguably, sequels should always assume the most destructive outcome of the previous installment. At least the most destructive reasonable outcome. Players who simply sterilize the entire map are probably not entitled to be fussy about continuity.

[Toby-Linn]

Originally Posted By: The Almighty Doer of Stuff

In Exile/Avernum 3, there are two major NPCs that can die or not die depending on your actions. Both are dead in Avernum 4.

One of them is Erika, but who is the other one?

Also, my two cents is that Jeff will go with the mainstream ending where you kill Dorikas. Isn't that what good little adventurers are supposed to do?

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

Bon-Ihrno is the other, although now that I think of it he may not be "major" really. Or was that E/A2? I haven't gotten past the golem plague in E/A3, and I've never played E/A2, so I'm just going by what I've read, and I've misunderstood what I've read about these games before. Either way, the continuity says Erika is killed by Rentar-Ihrno.

[Rent-an-Ihrno]

Bon-Ihrno dies in A3, in the vahnatai lands, just before the final showdown. He may or may not be major, but Rentar-Ihrno sure is - and even though continuity lets her live once more and the deed is a very exhausting one, she can also be killed in A3.

 

And I did it every time! You hear me, Rentar? Every time!!

[The Almighty Doer of Stuff]

I thought killing Rentar has no effect and the game assumes you didn't kill her, though, as she was supposed to be unkillable. Am I thinking of someone else?

[Toby-Linn]

Originally Posted By: Rent-an-Ihrno

Bon-Ihrno dies in A3, in the vahnatai lands, just before the final showdown.

Ah yes, he dies depending on whether or not you rest when you get to his house. I was sad when he died, as I liked him.

Isn't he the first Vahnatai you meet in A2? The one in Formello when the cavequake happens? And why am I thinking of a Vahnatai called Bohen-Ihrno? Is he someone else?

Yes, ADoS, the game assumes that you didn't kill Rentar, please see A4 for details.

[Randomizer]

Jeff said that A6 concludes the Darkside Loyalist Trilogy so they will be in the game as either the victors with Emperor Dorikas or as a major opposition force. Since Jeff doesn't want to get away from the current map system with all one size and no separate towns from outdoors, it will probably be in Avernum and not on the surface except through teleportation portals to limited areas.

 

Also Jeff said the Melanchion will return, so we will see dragons playing a role. Probably also intelligent talking chitrachs *shudder*.

[Toby-Linn]

We'll probably get to visit Blackcrag Fortress again, that could be one of the portals to limited areas.

 

Oh, but Blackcrag isn't the main seat of the Emperor, as in A3 it is stated that Empress Prazac is visiting Blackcrag Fortress. So maybe we'll actually get to see the Empire's actual castle? (I don't know what it's called, sorry).

[Earth]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Players who simply sterilize the entire map are probably not entitled to be fussy about continuity.

I'm innocent!!! I killed only Solberg and all who lived in his fortress and Melanchion outside quests.

Some area where enemies popup would be nice to get missing few exps at end of game to get last level, like at A4 had those slimes near some oupost.