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Thoughts about Avernum 6?


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Originally Posted By: Evnissyen
Vrek & Rent:
As Nalyd already explained, returning to the optional fight-mode system would necessitate returning to the clomp-clomp-clomp system which I've found utterly tedious, not to mention slow. In A3 you need to clomp-clomp-clomp across the entire town map of Fort Emergence, through several doors, down several hallways and through yet another door to meet the merchant or the trainer. Then you have to type T and then A (in the case of the merchant). Much easier if you just point to that spot on the map and watch your characters zoom there, right? And then when you get there just click on the merchant.
Implementing both features would not be so difficult, even less so that Vogel already has experience with both systems.

Also... to expand on what Madrigan said, if A6 returned to the old system then I think the only people who would buy it would be those who feel nostalgic for Nethergate-A3. Not a good marketing strategy, as somebody pointed out not too long ago... I don't remember who.
It's not nostalgia, not for me anyways. It's for actual playability.

Despite the fact that the gameplay in A4 & A5 is significantly refined (not to mention the graphics and animation improvements), I can understand your affection for the optional fight-mode system... but in Nethergate and the original Avernum trilogy I feel like I'm exploiting the system and only my fighter is seeing action; the other characters are really useless for most of the time. They're only useful for large-scale fights; otherwise they just get in the way. (And it's annoying having to hit that Peace button in order to get out of fight mode.) The way I see it: if I have 3 characters in my party then I've chosen 3 characters for a reason. I reduce from 4 characters because I find that only 3 are necessary, and this allows me to level up more quickly. With all characters meeting with every fight: strategy becomes a team effort rather than just slogging through tunnels with your fighter smashing your enemies as they appear and the mage & priest being used most of the time as nothing more than pack mules.
If you want to make more use of your mage and priest, you can easily make use of them with an optional fight mode. It's all on you to make that decision.

The fact that the auto-combat-mode system helps keep you from being surprised (and gives you the upper hand if you've trained in Dexterity and Quick Strike) I suppose might be seen as good or bad.
Personally, I like being surprised. Even if I have 20 DEX no each character, I'd still like to be blasted by that drake when I turn the corner, rather then immediately enter fight mode and proceed to kill it without taking a scratch.

(clipped, for redundancy)

I don't want to suggest you're wrong to prefer one style over another; we all have our preferences... I just feel that this stuff is stuff of the past. Life goes on. Personally, I hope that A6 has a totally different interface. I'm quite happy already that G5 will look rather different from G4. As I've said before: I don't feel that Jeff has any obligation to stick to a certain interface or graphical style throughout an entire series, any more than a serial writer should be obligated to adhere to one style throughout an entire series should he or she tire of that style and come up with a better one.
Remember: Newer is not always better. I actually find things refreshing when major graphical changes happen (though less so about the massive usage of Geneforge sprites), and to be honest, I still enjoyed the single, long flowing cell system he had for A4. But the mouse reliance in the game threw me off.


The only thing I agree with is that both Avernum & Geneforge should have more spells... but I want new spells as well. I do not want the games to move backward.
Hey, I just really miss my area effect spells. Never said new spells was bad for anything.
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Maybe I'm missing a chromosome, but of all the anti-A4/5 criticisms that I see on this forum, the one I really cannot understand is about the mouse movement. In the new system, you point to where you want to go and the party goes there. If you want to open a door, you click on it. If you want to talk to someone, you click on them. If you want to attack something, you click on it. It's simple and automated. Everything takes fewer steps than it did with the keyboard controls.

 

How could it possibly be better to use the keyboard to move one space at a time, over and over and over, than to just click on one spot? How could it be better to have to go into conversation mode, and then choose the person to talk to, than to just click on the person? Seriously, I just can't bridge this. Graphics, indoors/outdoors, training, the dialogue system, all of this I understand even though I think A4/5 are vastly better than the older games in every one of these facets. But this thing with the mouse and the keyboard, I don't comprehend. It seems impossible for anyone to prefer the old system. Would someone elaborate on how the keyboard movement is better than the mouse, in any way?

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I used to use the mouse to play A1-3, so maybe I'm not the best person to explain. But I'll try. Moving was really easy. I'd pick a direction, click and hold down, and my party would zoom in that direction. Repeatedly-clicking wasn't necessary.

 

Also, to open doors required you to just walk into the door. Same amount of button presses as clicking on the door to open it. Same with looking in barrels - one right-click was all that was needed, and then another to look into the crate/barrel etc. You could even use the right mouse-button to click on those too, I think. Talking to somebody required exactly two button presses: "t" and then the letter of the character you wished to speak to.

 

What I don't get is how people can say that A4/5's interface is all awesome and exceedingly quicker than A1-3's, when most of the time you are, at most, saving one mouse click. And sure, being able to whizz from one-side of the screen to the other with one click, that's cool, true, but I think I could live without it. I actually enjoy walking through some Avernite towns, like Fort Emergence.

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Originally Posted By: Nikki.

And sure, being able to whizz from one-side of the screen to the other with one click, that's cool, true, but I think I could live without it. I actually enjoy walking through some Avernite towns, like Fort Emergence.


I don't disagree with this part. Sometimes I like to stroll around, but I can do that with the A4/5 interface. But when I want to just get across the screen, the click and watch method is much better.

Moving with the mouse in the older games, in A2 for example, was annoying to me because I had to wait for the little arrow to be pointing where I wanted. I think the mouse was necessary if I wanted to move diagonally though.

Anyway, saving one click per action is a lot of clicks per game.
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Originally Posted By: Nikki
I used to use the mouse to play A1-3, so maybe I'm not the best person to explain. But I'll try. Moving was really easy. I'd pick a direction, click and hold down, and my party would zoom in that direction. Repeatedly-clicking wasn't necessary.

Seconded. Dikiyoba can't say whether it was faster or easier, but it was more immersive. Clicking and waiting is no fun. It worked well enough for Geneforge (at least until the subzones) because the total walking distance was never very far, but A4/A5 doesn't have the ability to skip zones like Geneforge does.
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Sure it does. Why do you think Jeff made teleportation pylons?

 

—Alorael, who still prefers moving with the keypad anytime he intends to move less than a screen away. Clicks are only good for covering lots of ground, as you can't just hold down a direction key without inevitably getting stuck on a rock.

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MOVEMENT: I don't know how you guys handle movement in A4/5, but I have the arrow keys scrolling the map so I can click where I want to go. But I always have to use the arrow keys in conjunction with each other. Up/right, Dn/Left. And doing it this way makes it much easier to miss something important on the screen.

However, holding down one key to go, say, North, was very easy in the old games. Two went diagonally. I suppose that even though you went "clomping", it wasn't any more effort than what I'm doing now with the arrows / mouse method. And walking into doors to open them made sense.

I would like the new movement method of mouseclicking better if you could select somewhere very far from your current position instead of having to lead your party screen by screen. Sometimes you've already wiped out all the baddies and so why not travel greater distances automatically?

I also liked the "T" then letter for talking, and "A"(?) and letter for attacking.

I think that spellcasting was similar (M/P letter then another key for selecting the spell).

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Originally Posted By: Ociporus
Being able to poison one's blade used to be a practical thing in the old games. I think it was done by a spell, and also by a skill but I can't remember on that second point. But I seem to remember there being a poisoning skill.


I always feel bad using poison. I think it's because Gary Gygax, in 1st Ed. AD&D, was so adamant that the use of poison was restricted to evil characters. It's odd that stabbing, burning, and clubbing people to death, causing their hearts to stop, or taking control of their minds were "good" acts, but poisoning, whoa, that's way out there. I suppose poisoning is considered dishonorable because it does not require you to actually confront the victim, and therefore entails less risk to you.

However, Avernum does not appear to be as civilized as Greyhawk, and your character has to confront the enemy in order to poison them, so I use it when necessary.
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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
Gary Gygax had the same reasoning for priest class in that it wasn't allowed to use an edged weapon to fight, but there was nothing wrong with bashing their brains out with a blunt instrument.


I think that was just brute force game balancing. The cleric, if I recall correctly, was just 5% behind the fighter in THAC0. I assume Gygax did that just to keep people from using clerics as slightly underpowered fighters who could also cast Flame Strike (this would later be known as the Spellsinger Problem).

But you already knew that.
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I'd really like the keyboard settings to be redone, or better yet customizable.

 

For instance, pressing g to pick up ground items, and then g again to close the bag. that would be amazing

 

Allowing for the spell menu to cascade and allow for 8 quick slots, or add a few more slots for spells.

 

A5's boat maneuvering was a little weak too, map point and click didn't work well at all.

 

I personally love the formula for everything else and the tactics feel of battle, but I think some very simple fixes could have taken away some pointless clicking a minor frustration.

 

A mass haste spell, that casts haste on the entire party. only usable outside of combat.

 

From what I've seen more items could be implemented. Items are probably on everyone top 3 list in an rpg, and the more the better if you ask me. It would be simple to add a few more weapon types and weapons and spawn them in random areas and monster drops. On the other hand making more powerful weapons could change the entire gameplay formula and get really complicated. A weapon that does 200dmg would be way overpowered....unless everything else was scaled to match that. Although in a new game scaling can be fresh.

 

A cool and simple addition could be sockets and gems. those are always fun.

 

I haven't played past chapter 3 yet so I'm not sure if anything else can be said here. Coming from a WoW veteran though, I'm surprised how enjoyable this game is. It's nice having a story and actually listening and caring to what people tell me. The world of Avernum is rich in detail and humanity and whoever wrote the text...kudos. its great. I was frightened that It would get old, fast right after the demo area. I was wrong. so far anyway =P

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Phasze,

 

There are some keyboard shortcuts. "G" will bring up the "get" screen. You can examine and pick up things from there. Check the documentation to find out the rest of the keyboard shortcuts.

"F" goes into and out of battle mode.

"M" gets ready to cast a Mage spell, "P" a Priest spell.

1, 2, 3, 4 selects the corresponding party character.

You can cast spells entirely from the keyboard. For example, to minor heal a guy [assuming the priest is character 4] you can just press 4pa1 to heal the 1st guy. If it's during battle, the sequence is pa1.

 

If you've liked the game so far, you should enjoy it right to the end.

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Yeah, I understand there are already keyboard shortcuts, but I think could be better or like I said, customizable. That way people set up their game exactly how they'd like to.

 

And about pressing "g", I was saying that pressing g again should close for you. I sometimes double press f really fast to close the bag, enter combat, and leave combat. boo

 

if anyone knows a better way, feel free to let me know

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Originally Posted By: Randomizer
It depends on game difficulty level whether you need to buff. Normal doesn't require it as much as torment.


I play on normal and still get angry sometimes when some monsters who have natural haste by mother nature and poisoning ability and then my 1st spellcaster needs to spend her turn to heal fighter who got poisoned if got multipoisoned instead of hasting him so 2nd spellcaster needs to spend her turn to haste 1st fighter instead of 2nd fighter and when 1st spellcaster gets turn again she needs to haste 2nd fighter instead hasting 2nd spellcaster or throwing fireball/icy rain onto enemy/enemies.
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It seems like the formula for pwning torment is buffing everyone with haste before each decent fight. without haste its damn hard or moreso impossible, and with it its basically flipping a win switch.

 

im thinking of just using the "leetbuffz" cheat to buff myself instead of going through all the buffing bs before every fight, it gets annoying.

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  • 2 weeks later...

After over 10 years of Exile, it was a welcome change to play through Avernum, 1-5. Many differences, i.e. no mass haste (much sadness), no dual wielding (not as bad as first diagnosed), and a rather abbreviated spell list. It was like they took away some of the frills, only to add new and unusual ones. Items with specific pros and cons? Never saw that coming. -1 strength to gain 1 AP, that alone makes for quite a quandry ( I always go for the extra AP, if ye be wondering). I am quite excited for the sixth installment. I wonder where our faithful band of adventurers will be stranded this time. One thing I must say is the in-game... skill "cheat" menu is handy, especially when recreating your party mid game. I change up the crew every chapter, so this particular menu is a must. This is my first time posting, but I have been playing the Exiles since my Macintosh Power PC was new (1996). Number 2 has always been my bread and butter. If ye be watching, developers and staff, keep up the great work, as I have yet to be disappointed. And bring back the mass haste, if you would be so kind. ;-)

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No more respawning areas in A6, those get annoying after fights same battle xth time w/o any reward.

 

What comes to A6 plot there are many options: Dragons decide to get ridoff Avernites so "we" must help them as Avernites or as Empire Soldiers, some ancient horde rises again from underworld and it must be killed. Only time tells what next plot will be but I hope A6 isn't bigger than A5's since A5's Avernum was big place to explore (trip around Avernum nearly).

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I was not aware Jeff Vogel dealt with all the meat of the game. I got the games off one of the old-school Win98/Mac shareware discs, back when the first 3 levels of Duke Nukem 3D were shareware. Internet is a rather new commodity at my disposal. Thanks for the heads up. As for a new plot, think back to Exile/Avernum 3. Numerous rampaging hoards, neatly lining up to be picked apart at your leisure. It was a change from the standard format (not to mention the introduction to sunlight). With Avernum 4, we are reintroduced to the Exile/Avernum 1-2 map overlay we all cut our teeth on. What nostalgia. 5 is an epic journey into the Heart of Darkness to stop an insane rogue officer, one of your own. Subject matter aside, I have faith I will not be disappointed. I am going to start Genoforge. I have high hopes. And in closing, I will never feel I have said it enough (until the moment of truth), bring back mass haste, if the god of the caves be watching over. :-,

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Originally Posted By: Earth2025
Only time tells what next plot will be but I hope A6 isn't bigger than A5's since A5's Avernum was big place to explore (trip around Avernum nearly).


I hope the game is even bigger. The one thing I missed in A5 was the opportunity to revisit the older areas of Avernum. I kept thinking that eventually the characters would have to go to the Castle, Formello, and so on. I loved A5 but I was disappointed that those areas were not included.
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Originally Posted By: Evnissyen
Vrek & Rent:
As Nalyd already explained, returning to the optional fight-mode system would necessitate returning to the clomp-clomp-clomp system which I've found utterly tedious, not to mention slow. In A3 you need to clomp-clomp-clomp across the entire town map of Fort Emergence, through several doors, down several hallways and through yet another door to meet the merchant or the trainer. Then you have to type T and then A (in the case of the merchant). Much easier if you just point to that spot on the map and watch your characters zoom there, right? And then when you get there just click on the merchant.

Also... to expand on what Madrigan said, if A6 returned to the old system then I think the only people who would buy it would be those who feel nostalgic for Nethergate-A3. Not a good marketing strategy, as somebody pointed out not too long ago... I don't remember who.


You demonstrate why Spiderweb Software is going down the tubes. The newer generation of gamers are half-wits who have no appreciation for complexity which is implemented with a child-like simplicity. Jeff tailors to these people by dumbing down his games and 'upgrading' to ugly 3D graphics. No doubt they also prefer 'Revenge of the Sith' to 'The Empire Strikes Back'.
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By the way, I've noticed that a couple of people here complained about the dialogue system from Exile/Nethergate. Apparently analysing a piece of text and extracting the pertinent information is too taxing for today's generation of gamers. You guys might want to stay away from 'Zork', you might have a seizure if you tried to play it.

 

I actually think that this might make a good test for any of my prospective boyfriends. I'll get them to play through Exile/Nethergate, and if they moan about how difficult the dialogue system is, I'll know that they are too dimwitted to ever hold a decent job, let alone an interesting conversation. So out the door they would go.

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Originally Posted By: Ghaldring
I actually think that this might make a good test for any of my prospective boyfriends. I'll get them to play through Exile/Nethergate, and if they moan about how difficult the dialogue system is, I'll know that they are too dimwitted to ever hold a decent job, let alone an interesting conversation. So out the door they would go.


Oh, heaven forfend that some luckless man should be turned down by the one and only Ghaldring because he didn't enjoy a decade-old computer game! How would he ever cope?

Besides, I thought you said you didn't swing that way.
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Originally Posted By: Ghaldring
By the way, I've noticed that a couple of people here complained about the dialogue system from Exile/Nethergate. Apparently analysing a piece of text and extracting the pertinent information is too taxing for today's generation of gamers.

If you mean guessing at which words just might lead to more information, with the capability of accidentally skipping over something important or breaking the game... then yeah. It isn't for this generation.

I prefer to focus on the game, rather than ask myself, "What four letters do I need to combine in order to progress the plot?"

Quote:
I actually think that this might make a good test for any of my prospective boyfriends. I'll get them to play through Exile/Nethergate, and if they moan about how difficult the dialogue system is, I'll know that they are too dimwitted to ever hold a decent job, let alone an interesting conversation. So out the door they would go.

Judging by the way you've acted around here thus far, I wouldn't pick and choose when it comes to boyfriends.

Originally Posted By: Ghaldring
You demonstrate why Spiderweb Software is going down the tubes. The newer generation of gamers are half-wits who have no appreciation for complexity which is implemented with a child-like simplicity.

I appreciate it. Quite frankly, I'd like some of the features (and spells) of the Exile spell system to enter the Avernum series (or whatever future game/series heads our way). But the Exile system also had a lot of baggage as well.

Quote:
Jeff tailors to these people by dumbing down his games and 'upgrading' to ugly 3D graphics.

Another thing you might want to work on is separating personal opinion from fact. I think the Exile graphics are too simplistic, and that the Avernum trilogy graphics were quite nice. The Geneforge graphics are good too... but they need to stay in Geneforge.

Quote:
No doubt they also prefer 'Revenge of the Sith' to 'The Empire Strikes Back'.

Never seen Star Wars, though you might as well state that liking Avernum means you also like to kick puppies.
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Dialogue system aside, I do like being able to take a few more outside of combat steps than Avernum 5 allows. I would appreciate the option to just keep walking. I would also like to see two different... values representing how much you can carry. One for what you wear; and another, larger value for what you carry in your pack. Another option I feel would be nice is housing. Exile/Avernum 3 had a few options for places of semi-permanent residence. Starting with a hovel to store the near limitless bounty acquired, with the option to upgrade to a more respectable domicile, would be a welcome call back. The option to play through with alegiance (sp) to the Empire or Avernum would shake things up. I loved the Geas, as it made serious changes to how irritated people became. And, the rewards were not bad for my two person party. As for Star Wars, Empire is the dark chapter, where all hope seems lost. The prequels, flash and fame. I am a Star Wars super geek, and quite proud of it. Palpatine makes the prequels.

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Originally Posted By: Thuryl
Originally Posted By: Ghaldring
I actually think that this might make a good test for any of my prospective boyfriends. I'll get them to play through Exile/Nethergate, and if they moan about how difficult the dialogue system is, I'll know that they are too dimwitted to ever hold a decent job, let alone an interesting conversation. So out the door they would go.


Oh, heaven forfend that some luckless man should be turned down by the one and only Ghaldring because he didn't enjoy a decade-old computer game! How would he ever cope?


He doesn't necessarily have to enjoy the game. But finding the dialogue system in Exile 'too hard' is a clear indication of some sort of mild mental retardation. I wouldn't want those genes present in my offspring.

Quote:

Besides, I thought you said you didn't swing that way.


If you're oh so curious, I swing both ways.
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I like the freedom of Exile/Nethergate, but I also like being able to speak in full sentences even if they have to be pre-generated. Finding the keywords in Exile is rarely a challenge; it is at its easiest a matter of typing letters (or clicking) and at worst process of elimination with every word uttered by the character.

 

Exceptions like "divulge," the Foxfire quest sequence, the nameless mage, and others exist, but they're the exception rather than the norm, and I don't really see the point in penalizing players for not keeping good notes or having a perfect memory. On the other hand, Avernum's dialogue allows interrogation to which the player responds with a choice. Full sentences makes it a lot easier to know what, exactly, you're asserting or assenting to.

 

Being able to choose your own input could give the player room to be clever and come up with that one word that wasn't mentioned but that's subtly raised as a subject for further conversation. Unfortunately, it just rarely happens, and sometimes it becomes a frustrating synonym hunt.

 

—Alorael, who thinks it could be handled by using the Avernum system and giving the player a way to say, "So, what do you have to say about [exhaustive list of game-relevant topics]?" The problem is coming up with the exhaustive list (nephilim, sliths, the undead, demons, Avernum, the Empire, Silvar, buried treasure, bandits, hats, Erika, Rentar...) and giving some reasonable response for all those things that everyone should know about. ("Formello? I've never been there, but I hear it's nice.")

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The only benefit I could see in reverting to the old system would be the call-back easter eggs that could be planted. Reference to Bruce of Blosk gives you a bonus to security, or something. Identify would be more relevant, in Bruce's case; yet the theory is sound. An "ask about" option at the bottom of the dialogue box could add another subtle layer. This by no means I would advise returning to the original system. I merely think a simple addition could add content. Items, skills, status. All could be incorporated. How to link it, however, could prove difficult. Who would be "in the know" on each particular subject? I don't think it should be there, for the sake of being there; yet if there where some rhyme and reason, it could be an incredible... it would be viable content.

To Ghaldring, play chess against a guy, if you want to test his learning curve and concentration. He doesn't have to win, but he should get better (or bored). You must like tactics, at some level, if you play (and enjoy) Exile and Avernum. Chess is tactics, against the living. You would be surprised how much you can learn about a person through a few games of chess, if they play to win. Random 5am side note.

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Ghaldring, you're not as hot as you think you are. I know I don't know how hot you actually are, but nobody is as hot as you think you are.

 

Originally Posted By: Modern Day Sousaphone
Avernum system and giving the player a way to say, "So, what do you have to say about [exhaustive list of game-relevant topics]?" The problem is coming up with the exhaustive list (nephilim, sliths, the undead, demons, Avernum, the Empire, Silvar, buried treasure, bandits, hats, Erika, Rentar...) and giving some reasonable response for all those things that everyone should know about. ("Formello? I've never been there, but I hear it's nice.")

 

Fallout did this. It rarely did much with it that wasn't done redundantly with normal dialogue trees, but it did it all the same, so it can be done.

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Regarding plot possibilites: someone, at some point, said the only thing left to resolve is Bassikava and the Darklings. I just thought of one other thing--the original Avernum had Gra-Hoth as a mere lieutenant in a massive war between demons and . . . well, something (presumably angels.) This war has never been mentioned since, and seems to have left Avernum behind, but maybe it could return with a bang. I mean, what greater final boss to end a series than the devil himself? (Or God himself, if you choose the evil path.)

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Quote:
Grah-Hoth as mere lieutenant? Are you sure you're not thinking of Adze-Haakai, often referred to as Grah-Hoth's lieutenant?


Grah-Hoth is also referred to as lieutenant at some point. I'm not sure if it's in A1 or A2, though. I played them both through very recently.
However, there was no hint on who/what Grah-Hoth's commander is. Maybe he had none, and all independent demon-lords are called lieutenants, or Grah-Hoth was indeed the master of all demons, but "lieutenant" just sounded more appropriate for some reason.

I don't think christian symbols should be a part of Avernum. And how the hell are you supposed to fight an all-poweful god anyway? Though I really, really miss the "good vs bad"-feeling of A1+A2, bringing in angels and stuff like that would be overkill.
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In A1 I can find reference to him as the Demon Chieftain, and this in a book: "One page is specially marked. It tells of a demon lord, Grah-Hoth, and his chief lieutenant, the gigantic Haakai-Adze." A2 has very little to say about Grah-Hoth, and none of it calls him a lieutenant. I really think you're getting confused by one of the references to Grah-Hoth and his lieutenants.

 

—Alorael, who believes Adze-Haakai isn't even the only one. There's at least one more, possibly in Akhronath.

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