Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: Sss-Chah maybe some of the creatures from past games like rakshasi or something? Raksasha, I have forgot what kinda enemies those were but quick peeking told that some sorta tigermagicians. Maybe if aren't in big groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Feo Takahari Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Incidentally, anybody know where Jeff got the idea for Rakshasas and other weird creatures? D&D's monster manual has an entry for "Rakshasa," but it said nothing about a strange scent associated with the beasties, so I'm wondering if he had an older source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 In popular fantasy culture and in Avernum rakshasas seem to be tiger-demons fond of their creature comforts (read: drugs and possibly perfumes), so maybe that's the smell. In the original Hindu mythology they're demons, but I don't think they're specifically tiger demons.  —Alorael, who is certain that the rakshasas in Jeff's games come straight from D&D. His own take with a smell (where does that get mentioned, anyway?) doesn't change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Toby-Linn Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Here is the link to Wikipedia's article about Rakshasas from the Hindu/Buddhist mythology.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasa  Originally Posted By: Wiki article They are shapechangers, illusionists, and magicians. Sounds like them to me! Didn't they enchant the town in Avernum 3 to look all nice and pleasant, but when you fell asleep they killed you? Erox, I think it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Feo Takahari Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Stareye and the Siege of Spidweb In popular fantasy culture and in Avernum rakshasas seem to be tiger-demons fond of their creature comforts (read: drugs and possibly perfumes), so maybe that's the smell. In the original Hindu mythology they're demons, but I don't think they're specifically tiger demons. —Alorael, who is certain that the rakshasas in Jeff's games come straight from D&D. His own take with a smell (where does that get mentioned, anyway?) doesn't change that. In the town just mentioned where they kill you if you sleep, there's one person who gives you a rational but unprovable explanation for why the town is empty except for him. If you ask him about the smell in the air, he says, "I don't smell anything." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Have you ever smelled a tiger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I think the smell comes from the perfume, incense, and hookahs -- that was the impression I got from the Rakshasa cave in E2, anyway. Â http://encyclopedia.ermarian.net/wiki/Rakshasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Toby-Linn Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 This wiki article deals with the Rakshasa in fiction: Â http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakshasa_(fiction) Â It mentions the Exile and Avernum series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Do tigers smell as good as panthers?  —Alorael, who brings you this post on behalf of great cats and great perfumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Rowen Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I would like to see a return of the Rakshasa even if they do not play a pivotal role. Nothing scared me like the Rakshasa in E2/A2 and I found that part of the game more challenging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Sss-Chah Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Rowen I would like to see a return of the Rakshasa even if they do not play a pivotal role. Nothing scared me like the Rakshasa in E2/A2 and I found that part of the game more challenging. that's exactly what i'm saying. maybe it/they could even be completely optional, like how some games have the hardest boss as an optional one. maybe for an added incentive, the reward could be an enchanted weapon crafted by a rakshasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Unless Empire/Avernum has killed all (like that would matter since it was said all dragons are dead too but there were drakes at A4 and huge dragon at A5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Sss-Chah Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 in a3, the dragons were on the surface and athron even had a brood. but i also remember in a3 that there was a gremlin that was supposedly the last of its kind. maybe that just meant the last of its kind on the surface of valorim, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk Toby-Linn Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 There was tons of gremlins on the surface of A3 though. There was the long walk up to the perfect flower, plus a couple of fairy groves, plus a couple of heavily wooded areas that were all twisty and contained some groups of gremlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 and both upworld and downworld has alot places for "dead" species to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Rowen I would like to see a return of the Rakshasa even if they do not play a pivotal role. Nothing scared me like the Rakshasa in E2/A2 and I found that part of the game more challenging. Are you perhaps familiar with the Blades work of one Terror's Martyr? —Alorael, who assures you that there is more rakshasa than you could possibly want. And then some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Note that in Exile and Avernum, "rakshasi" and "rakshasas" are used as plurals and "rakshasa" only as singular. This is different from the typical morphology of the word, where "rakshasa" is plural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Really? I thought it took a standard -s to form the plural in English. Rakshasi is apparently the female version in its original mythology and language. Jeff can do whatever he wants to his games, but not to language!  —Alorael, who won't accept a game designer deciding that creatures should be given new spellings just because it would be interesting. What's next? Orkks? Drayks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Feo Takahari Incidentally, anybody know where Jeff got the idea for Rakshasas and other weird creatures? D&D's monster manual has an entry for "Rakshasa," but it said nothing about a strange scent associated with the beasties, so I'm wondering if he had an older source. AD&D 1st editition Monster Manual had a picture of a Rakshasa. It showed a tiger in a smoking jacket with a pipe. Considering the number of other monsters from that book it was a probable source material. It was also a monster in Kolchak: The Night Stalker (original series in the early 70s), but you never got to really see it. The last gremlin in Avernum was in Avernum 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Rowen Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Sounds like Erfworld. They have Gobwins and Dwagons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Earth Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Maybe Avernum should get some unique monster if it already hasn't any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 The stock AD&D monsters have been one of the most influential monster sources in all of modern fantasy (themselves often derived from the most influential books of early-to-mid-20th-century fantasy, like Zelazny and Tolkien, or from mythology). Not for nothing was one of the earliest CRPGs, a protoroguelike, called "dnd". Â AD&D provided a lot of idiosyncratic, memorable monsters that continue to persist in clearly recognizable form in games today. Beholders, basilisks, the four classic elementals, treants, flame and frost giants, liches, golems, mind flayers, giant animals, antlions, puddings, and of course the colored and metallic dragons come to us straight from D&D or AD&D. Of course, it also spread elves, dwarves, goblins, and orcs, as well as lizard men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Locmaar Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Earth2025 Maybe Avernum should get some unique monster if it already hasn't any. When I got my hands on Exile II way back when, a couple of changes to the fantasy canon kept me going: 1.) Slitherakai 2.) Nephilim 3.) Vahnatai I found all of these inventive enough... edit: I'm still, after all these years, sad, that I didn't make it back here in due time after our first Blades of Exile endeavours. Too much work and too little thinking about Spiderwed Software's achievements kept me away until Avernum IV, which, according to some sort of canon, strangely enough got me hooked again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 While I like the Slithzerikai very much, there is nothing unique about them. They are exact clones of the Lizard Men from D&D and Wizardry, with "good spellcasters" tacked on. The Nephilim also resemble Wizardry's Felpurr, though not as closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Locmaar Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 My edit took me too long... Â another edit: Inventive, as in the role they played as a major race, not unique... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dintiradan Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 D&D has very few monsters that are completely unique and created by TSR/WotC. The Open Gaming License lists only eleven creatures that are unique enough to be considered Product Identity. Even some members of this list are derived from other sources: A Carrion Crawler is a centipede. A freakishly big and scary centipede with a host of other features, but a centipede nonetheless. Tanar’ri and Baatezu: Demons and devils. Again, specific features are mentioned for the subraces. Illithid/Mind Flayer: Unique enough, but the Lovecraftian influence is apparent. Yuan-ti: Part human, part snake? I've heard that before.  There are some truly unique creatures (Beholders, Displacer Beasts, the giths), but for the large part, they're bastardized versions of legends. The big thing is that these bastardizations are now standardized. Exile/Avernum doesn't pit you against goblins who are crafty and steal children at night. It pits you against tribal beings who are weak, stupid, and ugly. And woe to the setting creator who makes elves with dark skin and doesn't also give them red eyes and spiders as pets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Vent Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 It's clearly tough to invent new monsters, for most you'll find close links to past monsters. Â But yes, it's details that will count at the end. I wonder how many variations around elves have been done but quite a lot and quite different. If elves could be found in Tolkien, Dark elves of D&D seems original anyway. Â Also to the tribute to D&D, aren't Jelly original D&D design? It's tough to setup a copyright on this but still seems original. Â EDIT: And some more that seems to me (could be wrong) good candidate for a tribute to D&D monsters: - Lich: The mixture seems original. - Elemental: I wonder from what old myths and legends it could come. - Mimic: The idea of a monster disguising into an item isn't inventive but the variation seems. - Blink Dog: Well again a basic principle, teleportation but the mix seems quite original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 The undead sorcerer is a much older trope. The D&D form is a direct descendent from '30s pulp sword and sorcery stories, which in turn derive from legends and folklore. The specific formulation of D&D is unique, but it's no more unique than the dozens of versions that D&D itself spawned.  The four classical (Greek) elements are the origins of elementals. Elementals themselves came out of medieval alchemy. Paracelsus is the first reference I know of to creatures recognizable as elementals, and his names for them have also become popular, though often not themselves as elementals.  Mimics may be a D&D original. Everything in the room trying to kill you (including the room itself) really works "best" in roleplaying games.  Many slight variations on creatures are indeed original in D&D. Blink dogs, displacer beasts, carrion crawlers, cloakers, and the list goes on. They're still just animals with weird abilities and properties tacked on.  The dark elves as subterranean come straight from the Norse svartalfar. Tolkien has his elves in caves as well, in Menegroth and Nargothrond, but they don't live entirely underground. He also brought the term "dark elf" into modern fiction with Eöl. The specific society of dark elves as drow is indeed from D&D or possibly from R. A. Salvatore's spinoff novels, but adaptation is not the same as creation.  —Alorael, who doesn't know about jellies and oozes. He considers them a likely product of some combination of disgust and nightmares. They made be derived from horror B movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 The name "dark elf" is not new in D&D, nor is the word "drow," but I think the fleshing out of the culture is much more extensive and original than any of the other examples listed. Gary Gygax detailed much of the culture and history of the drow in a number of adventure modules before Salvatore's spin-offs appeared.  In any event, the resemblance to svartalfar is present, but limited to the basic concept, and there is absolutely no resemblance to Tolkien's dark elves (moriquendi) who were not evil and did not live underground. Eöl, likewise, is more of a tragic failure than a villain, and he didn't live underground either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 And always remember: "drow" should be pronounced to rhyme with "bow", not "sow". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks, Thuryl. Thanks a lot.  —Alorael, who agrees that D&D dark elves are distinct. They're not new, though. There is nothing new under the sun or even way, way under where the sun shines. Pieces of svartalfar, dark elves, Scottish drow, and a new and particularly dysfunctional culture melded to create two-scimitared fury of righteousness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 "Nothing is ever said, that has not been said before." - Terence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Vent Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Plays with basic elements is quite different than make monsters from them. I quote from a wiki about Paracelsus: * gnomes, earth elementals * undines, water elementals * sylphs, air elementals * salamanders, fire elementals. That's quite different than pure elementals of D&D. Â That said you'll find plenty energy beast in old SF that are closer to D&D elementals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Spiffy "Nothing is ever said, that has not been said before." - Terence Who has the advantage that most Greek works are lost so we don't know if he is quoting from one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish feline monstrosity Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl And always remember: "drow" should be pronounced to rhyme with "bow", not "sow". That's not very helpful considering that "bow" can be pronounced two ways depending on whether you mean bow as in "to take a bow" or bow as in a bow and arrows; as can "sow" depending on whether you mean sow as in to sow seeds or sow as in an adult female pig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I'm guessing that was Thuryl's point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 The way gnomes, undines, sylphs, and salamanders are thought of now is not the way Paracelsus thought about them. In fact, at least three of those are or have been D&D monsters, and they're not standard elementals at all. They were considerably more pure in Paracelsus's system.  —Alorael, who pronounces drow "drough" most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Originally Posted By: feline monstrosity That's not very helpful considering that "bow" can be pronounced two ways depending on whether you mean bow as in "to take a bow" or bow as in a bow and arrows; as can "sow" depending on whether you mean sow as in to sow seeds or sow as in an adult female pig. Congratulations on ruining the joke by explaining it. Originally Posted By: Terafina Obscura —Alorael, who pronounces drow "drough" most of the time. Droff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Slawbug Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Droll. (Druin?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila Cloud Nine Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I usually pronounced Drow, with a row sound to it. Like dra-row. I recently found out though its pronounced with an oww sound. dra-oww. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Articulate Vlish feline monstrosity Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 :S oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Artila TheTerminator Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I don't understand how Drow would ever come up in real life discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Some people still play D&D around an actual, physical table with people in the same room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Goldengirl Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl Some people still play D&D around an actual, physical table with people in the same room. Are you kidding me? Everyone's upgraded to metaphysical tables by now, which exist in different rooms at the same time, and occur in Artificial Life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Or you could discuss books with drow in them with real people. Or, say, Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights. Actually, don't those games have voice actors who have to pronounce the word?  —Alorael, who upon further reflection is rather surprised that R. A. Salvatore's book haven't gone movie. They seem like a perfect fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Rowen Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Is there a way to find one of these tables? I want to get into a starters game again and try it out but I don't know where to start looking for people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Try your friendly local game shop. Some of them have tables for players to get together and game. Â When I was in Tucson, Arizona, we rented space in a building and gamed there so we wouldn't trash our own homes. We just chipped in a few dollars every session for rent. Â Actually we did clean up after the game, but 6 to 8 gamers do generate plenty of junk food trash. Someone even had a table built with hexagonal game maps on the surface and places to stick your dice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Locmaar Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: Alorael —Alorael, who pronounces drow "drough" most of the time. ...to rhyme with Homer Simpson's favourite beverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon The Almighty Doer of Stuff Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: Thuryl Congratulations on ruining the joke by explaining it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Sss-Chah Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: Randomizer Someone even had a table built with hexagonal game maps on the surface and places to stick your dice. that's definitely one of the top three nerdiest things i've ever heard/read in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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