GeneForge 5, sad to see it go. (Or maybe not?)[G5]

[AethirWeb]

So first i'll begin this thread with my appreciation with the GeneForge series. Well Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim has been released and i go it, it was pretty fun, and because i'm a guy who looks high graphical, epic story enriched, magical and powerful realistic combat, and the chance to experience the world of the game. I never thought i'd become a fan of Spiderweb. It's probably been a few years now since i got my first GeneForge game. I opened up the game and said, "oh wow i'm probably not going to like this at all". But as i look at the intro, it was just stunning. The lore of the game was just so, epic and breath-taking.

 

When my first Shaper and character "Soul Mage" walk onto the fallout - like rpg terrain i couldn't be impressed. The clumsy controls and annoying inventory system, i thought the story would've been the only thing that gave the game a 6/10 in my opinion that far. Then i started to realize how much adventure i had been missing. This was a new experience for me, as a newbie i would always die or had to use dbugkill to get through difficult areas. But when i finally got my Drayk i wreck havoc on Sucia.

 

The second game came out and i wanted to get it, and found a rich new world opening up to me. More adventure and more lore just sprung out of no where, and the sheer awesomeness of the game just overwhelmed me. During my younger years i missed out on GF3 and GF4 (But then i got it later when i got a job). And the final installment came to me, GeneForge 5 Overthrow. Whew! It was a long journey for Soul Mage, his blade smeared in blood and his hands still burning from the amount of firebolts he casted, and his body still empty from creating legions of Drakons.

 

As a benevolent True Neutral kind of person i experienced the Rebel ending of Ghaldring, and the Shaper ending of Alwan. But then i realized...that was it, geneforge is finished. I've completed the saga, but what now? GeneForge was the most epic thing I've experienced. I got Avadon but it's more close world than GeneForge so i did not like that, and i might get Avernum Escape from the Pit..but is it any good?

 

Is GeneForge really finished? I mean, that was it? I think i might need more GeneForge. I just loved how i could slash and hack my way through weaklings, blast and kill powerful monsters, command huge dragon humanoids, but if i was too weak i could just talk my way out of it. This game was...perfect. I loved Skyrim because it had really good action, i loved Fallout because the game was just enchanting, and i loved several games which i forgot that had lots of smooth talking involved. But GeneForge, it combined all the aspects i loved into one science fiction medieval fantasy game!

 

So is GeneForge just ended? Is there a way to get more of it? Cause it was a huge part of my life, and it gave me the inspiration to become a writer. But really, should i move on and try Avernum? Or will a new GeneForge game be a possibility? Maybe even Blades of GeneForge? (I have been answered no to Blades of GeneForge, but still)

[Randomizer]

There are no more Geneforge games scheduled and Jeff has made no mention of doing anymore. The Avernum games are being remade to an update game engine and the first three games will probably alternate with the next few Avadon games. Jeff has mentioned that he has an idea for an Avernum prequel game.

 

I wouldn't be surprised that Jeff remakes the older Geneforge games.

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

If he does, that would be all I need for the next 3 years or so.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

If he does, that would be all I need for the next 3 years or so.

Remake the Geneforge games, you mean? Don't get your hopes up for it happening anytime soon. Maybe after the Avadon trilogy and the remakes of A1-3 finish up, but that'll probably be mid-decade at least.

[Pyrrhus]

The way that G5 ends it is almost nearly impossible for a new geneforge to come out. Although it might work if you were playing a shaper on an isolated colony that just got hit by the rebellion.

[Death Knight]

I talked to jeff a month ago about geneforge. He said he will be remaking the entire series, however he doesnt know how he will go about doing it. He said he would either get done with avernum, then avadon 2, then do a geneforge 1 remake, or hold off until the avernum remakes are done.

 

I would hope for the former, that way each group of fans are satisfied. Plus, a geneforge 1 remake will be epic.

[Lord_Shaper]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Plus, a geneforge 1 remake will be epic.

Aye. Better graphics and a dent creation system would make me want to buy it
Although geneforge 6 would be better. Maybe it could be Humans vs Ghaldring? That fits, and opens the possibility of playing as a drakon.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Aye. Better graphics and a dent creation system would make me want to buy it
Although geneforge 6 would be better. Maybe it could be Humans vs Ghaldring? That fits, and opens the possibility of playing as a drakon.

Agreed on the first point. I don't actually mind the graphics that much, but the interface on G1 is just primitive these days. I've been spoiled by later SW games...then again, I actually like the interface on the early Averna and Nethergate better than G1. The latter is just really unpolished. It was Jeff's first time deviating from the standard 4/6 character party system, and you can tell.

As to the second: Ghaldring is known to be dead in four of the five endings, and strongly implied to be in the fifth. Him showing up as a villain in a new Geneforge sequel would make Rentar-Ihrno in A4 look reasonable and non-contrived.

[Lord_Shaper]

As to the second: Ghaldring is known to be dead in four of the five endings, and strongly implied to be in the fifth. Him showing up as a villain in a new Geneforge sequel would make Rentar-Ihrno in A4 look reasonable and non-contrived.

But every single geneforge game assumes rebel victory. It has to. So it's only 1 in 3, and really, Ghaldring is the only "true" rebel. Shaper pacifists and trakovites are only tenuosly rebel.

And before you tell me he dies even in his own ending, yes I know that but he died in a war between the human and drakon rebels. I am suggesting we have a 6th geneforge game set in the timespan of the ending, after the death of the council, at the point when the western, human, rebellion rises up against the now drakonian east.

Rebel vs rebel vs trakovite vs shaper remnants. Tell me that wouldn't be cool.

[Sudanna]

The second game very explicitly assumes complete Shaper victory in the first, or else the entire world would be ruled by the Geneforged PC. The third needs a Shaper victory ending as well, since Ghaldring lives to found the real Rebels and not Salassar. The fourth one doesn't matter, since in either ending for 3, it's stated that the war gets worse. The fifth game is the only one I'm not sure about, but I think it requires a Shaper ending as well, since the Rebel ending involves massive unstoppable hordes of Unbound.

[Aoslare]

There is no reason the "canonical" continuation has to use just one of the endings. Why couldn't it mix and match between them? Indeed that is what always happens with the details. For example, NEITHER ending of Geneforge 3 is 100% compatible with the later games: as the canonical continuation must involve many NPCs surviving, who cannot ALL survive in either ending.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

TGF: Like Slarty says, neither ending to 3 corresponds exactly to the events of subsequent games. If anything, the rebel ending is closer to the way things go: we know the rebels control the Ashen Isles (G5, Alwan's ending), Akhari Blaze is alive (G4 and 5), and if Rahul survives we never hear anything about it. On the other hand, Khyryk survives into 4, but events are still closer to those in the rebel ending. Also, did you miss the massive unstoppable hordes of Unbound in G5? Even though the bulk of their strength went toward retaking Illya and Burwood provinces (back in rebel hands by G5), they've still made considerable inroads into the Mera-Tev and Dera Reaches. The Shaper ending involves a mass of things that don't happen according to G5: Akhari Blaze, Litalia, and Greta all dying, the Unbound project getting variously nipped in the bud, Shapers taking over even more rebel territory. The rebel ending requires the death of Miranda (true), Alwan (left for dead, which is consonant with what happens in G4), and the completion and successful release of the Unbound (true).

 

In short, while they never correspond exactly to the in-game ending text, the canonical endings are as follows:

G1: Primarily omnicidal unaligned/Obeyer...pro-Shaper.

G2: Unaligned/Servant...pro-Shaper.

G3: Primarily rebel.

G4: Primarily rebel, maybe exclusively. If there are events in the rebel path/ending that explicitly contradict plot in G5, I can't think of them.

G5: Unknown.

 

@Lord_Shaper: First, as Thin Gypsy Thief points out, the series assumes partial to complete Shaper victory in both the first and second installments. Even if you were right, though, that creates at best a questionable precedent for assuming that Ghaldring's ending in G5 is the correct one. That said, the idea of a story set during the rebellion against the drakons would be cool, but it's a shorter episode that strikes me as better for a segment of a game, or a work of fan fiction, than a full game in itself. It also suffers from the fact that the major players in the story are already in place; Jeff would need to either retcon things significantly, or else risk the PC feeling shoehorned in.

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

The rebel ending requires the death of Miranda (true), Alwan (left for dead, which is consonant with what happens in G4), and the completion and successful release of the Unbound (true).

The rebel ending also fits better with the "G5 PC is Monarch" hypothesis, since only a rebel would think of sending Monarch back into western Terrestia.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

For that matter, it also fits better with the hypothesis that the G5 PC is the G4 PC. Granted, I'm not a big fan that theory, but it's pretty much impossible if the G4 PC was pro-Shaper. Which they obviously weren't, based on other in-story elements, so maybe this post is irrelevant. C'est la guerre.

[Pyrrhus]

I personally like some of the old graphics better than the new ones. I like the old fyora better as well as the battle alpha. If Jeff were to remake G1 would he include some of the newer more powerful creations of G4 & 5?

[DisgruntledFish]

But every single geneforge game assumes rebel victory. It has to. So it's only 1 in 3, and really, Ghaldring is the only "true" rebel. Shaper pacifists and trakovites are only tenuosly rebel.

And before you tell me he dies even in his own ending, yes I know that but he died in a war between the human and drakon rebels. I am suggesting we have a 6th geneforge game set in the timespan of the ending, after the death of the council, at the point when the western, human, rebellion rises up against the now drakonian east.

Rebel vs rebel vs trakovite vs shaper remnants. Tell me that wouldn't be cool.

 

That would be incredible. Also what about a turn of events and Ghaldring wasn't killed but a copy/fake and he hid away remotely? That could work, but I don't think hard-core fans would except it.

[Alorael at Large]

As has been said, Geneforge hasn't been confined to any canon endings before. I see no reason for Jeff to feel confined by any of his endings, even in aggregate, if he ever continues the series.

 

The rebels are about to crush the Shapers but make no real progress before collapsing due to infighting? The council survives, largely intact, except for Alwan's succumbing to his injuries? Ghaldring survives to lead the drakons and drayks against Greta's humans and serviles? And the Shapers, inspired by some of Taygen's not quite completely genocidal work, find a way to compel the Unbound into obedience in order to suddenly threaten both rebel forces again? Litalia leads a populist uprising among non-shapers who are just sick of all the carnage, no longer explicitly tied to an end to shaping as a goal in itself, and Khyryk just laughs from the sidelines?

 

—Alorael, who is pretty sure that there are canon problems with his setup. And he still thinks it, or a thousand variations, would make fun games. If Jeff continues the series, he will undoubtedly find an interesting setup. There may be some contortions of how canon could get there, but what's a little canon when a continent has already gone poof?

[Pyrrhus]

I see another option for the shaper council as well. This would keep the story more open ended if you play a rebel.

 

The Shaper Council has become consisted of new members. The previous ones were assassinated or retired.

 

On a side note: I would side with Litalia in Alorael's ending.

[grasshopper]

I'd love to see new geneforge games, but I'd much rather see updates of all the earlier ones pushed out and pushed out quick, even if just with a new inventory screen and adjustable screen size. I can't play any of them earlier than g5 any more because of it.

[Pyrrhus]

Jeff needs time to work on them. If I'm not mistaken, I think SW games are more of his hobby instead of his profession.

[Nioca]

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

Jeff needs time to work on them. If I'm not mistaken, I think SW games are more of his hobby instead of his profession.

You're mistaken; Jeff's full-time job is making SW games.

[Pyrrhus]

oh ok.

[Trenton.]

What does he initialy do besides the plot and making up characters and monsters? Does he help with pixel art? Does he create the maps?

[Randomizer]

Changes to the game engine, creating the world map, creating each zone map, write the overall plot, create all that dialog for each zone, create scripts to give the actions of monsters and NPCs in combat.

 

The artwork for the start and screen while loading he contracts out. Some monster graphics he might buy. The individual items that you can pick up in each zone he usually has a staff member insert based on lists he writes.

 

Some time near the end of testing he finally writes the instruction manual.

Writes a hint book with maps.

[Death Knight]

Originally Posted By: Pyrrhus

Jeff needs time to work on them. If I'm not mistaken, I think SW games are more of his hobby instead of his profession.

If this was all a hobby of jeff's and he only spent half his time on these games; I'd pay good money to see him spending most of his time on them, if that was the case

[Yuna Corne]

For that matter' date=' it also fits better with the hypothesis that the G5 PC is the G4 PC./quote']

 

The thing is, I played a servile in both G4 and G5, so that's what made it click for me - that the G5 PC was the G4 PC. G5 had the option of being a servile - and other than the serviles earlier on in the series (which would be too old to continue by this point, anyways, so it couldn't be them), the G4 PC would have been the only servile who was as important as the seer claimed them to have been. If it were Monarch or some other Shaper, then it wouldn't make sense to have the option to make the G5 PC a servile.

 

My two cents. (Which has probably been said before)

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

If it were Monarch or some other Shaper, then it wouldn't make sense to have the option to make the G5 PC a servile.

The opposite argument is equally logical: if the G5 PC were a servile, it wouldn't make sense to have the option to make them PC a human. If we accept both of these arguments (and there's no reason to accept one without the other), then we're led to conclude that the G5 PC can be neither a servile nor a human. We thereby derive a contradiction, since the G5 PC is either a human or servile, but is not either a human or servile, meaning that from this line of reasoning anything is possible. Under such circumstances, I'm inclined to favor ten ducks in a human suit. Rawal only implanted the control in one of them, but if one dies the costume falls apart, their identity becomes clear, and no one can take them seriously anymore. Nonstandard Game Over o'clock.

...I'm not sure how they talk, though.

One possible (non-facetious) idea is that if the G5 PC is a rebel class, they were the G4 PC, and if they're a Shaper class, they were the G3 PC (and possibly Monarch). G5, as the last game in the series, exists in a sort of Schrodinger's canon, i.e. there are no subsequent games to impart the canonical ending.

[Yuna Corne]

Well, bugger to that I say. I ought to go find Jeff's house and glare balefully at his front door until he makes a sixth one.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Bugger to what, exactly?

[Yuna Corne]

Oh, there not being a sixth one. I'm quite sorry, I'm very tired. I was trying to think up a proper reply but the whole duck-costume bit threw me off (as ducks are wont to do).

[Sudanna]

I prefer to think of him as the G3 PC, actually.

[DisgruntledFish]

It was a nice series, and although a sixth Geneforge would be great, it may be for the best to only have five(besides, Jeff is busting his butt with remaking his older games at the moment).

[Acky]

In an Email I sent Jeff he's said something like, "You can be 99% sure that there will be a remake of the Geneforge games." As for whether or not there will be a remake before the rest of the presumed Avernum remakes (technically speaking Avernum's 2-3 haven't been confirmed I don't think,) remains to be seen.

 

If G1 gets a remake though, it begs the question of will the creations we get in 2-5 be recannoned into existance. I'd be sad to loose my Eyebeasts

[A less presumptuous name.]

I don't see how Jeff could fit the newer creations into the older games. Their creation is rather important to the plot development in the later games.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Agreed. Having eyebeasts, kyshakks, and so on appear earlier on would not be the most plausible retcon. One convenient alternative would be to fill out the roster with a third variant of each creation type. This would mean a total of 27 usable creations, which is pretty close to the 30 available in G4-5. For some creation types, there are already workable variants (e.g. the 32 flavors of vlish, guardian roamers, battle gammas), while others have no obvious extension (glaahks, drayks) and would require a bit more innovation.

 

In either case, it seems likely that Jeff will monkey around with the creation roster and skills, to modernize them and sort out some balance issues (parry, vlish, etc.); it will (eventually) be interesting to see how he works the class system this time around.

[Acky]

Oh, I completely agree, it would be proprosterous to have Drakons, Rothgroths and Gazers on Sucia. I just don't see the regression on the creation amount being appreciated by most of us, myself included.

 

Maybe we'll have the 9 creations we started at but also have 2 different versions plus the base version.

[Trenton.]

Speaking of, weren't drakons only created during and after geneforge 3?

[Randomizer]

Drakons were Shaped in Geneforge 2, however you don't meet one until Geneforge 3. Depending upon the ending, the Shapers miss a spot when cleaning up the mess in the Drypeaks area.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

Drakons were Shaped in Geneforge 2, however you don't meet one until Geneforge 3.

Um... drakons are all over the place in G2. A lot of the Takers are drakons, either freshly Shaped or transformed drayks.

Dikiyoba.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Yeah. The player can shape them, even.