Avernum 5 Early, Early Notes

[Spidweb]

Since there's a busy thread on Avernum 5 stuff, I thought I'd say what's on my mind. Kelandon found one of my older posts about Avernum 5 and put it in that thread, and everything I said there still holds. I've figured out a bunch of stuff I want to do, and I'll be posting more about it as time passes.

 

A bunch of things people mentioned in this thread will be happening. Though I still feel no need for a major revamp of the engine.

 

I am planning to add several heavily requested things. Keyboard shortcuts for as much as I can. Elevations. Candles and lamps making more light.

 

I will be bringing into Avernum 4 many of the successful system changes of Geneforge 4 (like the new encumbrance and action point systems, both of which I am very happy with).

 

There will be a much more satisfying plot (or, at least, satisfying to me). I will do what I did with Geneforge 4 and spend several days just staring at blank sheets of paper and doing plotting.

 

It'll all be in the underworld, some in a certain part of Avernum, most in a new area. And your characters' background will be completely different from in every Avernum game.

 

I'm actually starting to look forward to writing it. I'm coming up with a lot of neat ideas. It'll probably be started in 5-6 months, after the Nethergate 2.0 thing is under control.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
And your characters' background will be completely different from in every Avernum game.

Now this is something to chew on.

[Randomizer]

We won't start out as worms?

 

The lighting should either go back to what was in A1-3 or chose better contrasting colors for the area floor color versus monster color. No more black monster on dark color floor.

 

Sounds good so far since the main objection to A4 was the plot.

[Thralni]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Elevations. Candles and lamps making more light.

Thank you, oh lord.

[The Lurker]

Quote:

Originally written by Thralni:

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Elevations. Candles and lamps making more light.

Thank you, oh lord.

Ditto.

What about boats?

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
Keyboard shortcuts for as much as I can.

Yay!

Quote:

Elevations.

Hooray!

Quote:

It'll all be in the underworld...most in a new area.

Brilliant!

-S-

[Ephesos]

To all that was said: Yay!

 

I look forward to the continued speculation, and I'm glad to see that Jeff is excited about making it. That means it'll get finished that much faster.

 

Quote:

Originally written by The Lurker:

What about boats?

I'm curious about this as well.

[nikki.]

I'm more excited about setting. We know it's not all in Avernum. But it's still the underworld. Does that mean Vahnatai caves? Or just somewhere old, but unexplored like west of Fort Remote?

 

The fact that Jeff says "a new area" implies it's not the Vahnatai land we know..

 

Still, yay! I need to replay A4 sometime...

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Thuryl:

 

Quote:

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

And your characters' background will be completely different from in every Avernum game.

Now this is something to chew on.

Definitely. It could be anything but newly recruited adventurers, really. Add to that new land to explore, elevation, and a better plot and the game sounds good already.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Nioca]

Wow. Jeff has really hit his stride this year.

[Lattan]

Yay!!!!

[Andraste]

Grrr. Ubb ate my comment last night.

 

But, yay! And I second the question about boats. This game should rock.

[Spidweb]

There will be boats.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Mysterious Man]

Hey Jeff, will you put me in your next game? I'd love the recognition. The name is Ty.

[Dintiradan]

Youpi!

 

Elevation will add the aesthetic kick the new engine needs, and a new setting is great. Not that Avernum Proper is a bad setting, just that after wandering around the same turf for three games, ennui sets in.

 

--------------------

[Alorael at Large]

All good things. Elevation and boats are essential Avernalia. Now all that's missing is secret passages. Wall bumping plz!

 

For the record, Jeff has eliminated being random adventurers (A1, but really all of them), army grunts with lax discipline (A2), members of Unspecified Services/Covert Ops (A3), or whatever you are in A4. Surface-dwellers is possible, but so is playing as Darkside Loyalists. That would be different.

 

—Alorael, who never had all that many lighting problems in A4. With contrast problem fixed, though, there shouldn't be any need for lanterns. Do you really want to have to lug them around?

[Bocaj]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
There will be boats.

- Jeff Vogel

Oh, praise be.

[Kelandon]

Wow. I'm actually excited about Spidweb games again. I was mostly sticking around for BoA, but GF4 has gotten such good comments on the boards, and Nethergate 2.0 sounds like enough of a good thing, and A5 sounds so promising, that I'm genuinely looking forward to playing these games. It was getting kinda depressing in there around GF3 and A4, but I like the way things are turning now.

 

One thing: I hope that this "new area of Avernum" will have a reasonable justification for it and will fit within the sense of the Avernum world. Here I'm thinking of ZKR and how difficult it was to make sense of the geography of the scenario in relation to what we knew of Avernum — it was just some new place that we'd never heard of before, without any explanation why we'd never heard of it or really even where it was.

 

A2 did a really good job of opening up a new area of the caves: of course we didn't know about the route to vahnatai lands, because it was opened via a cavequake. I hope that some similarly reasonable explanation will be included in A5.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by The Life Pneumatic:
For the record, Jeff has eliminated being random adventurers (A1, but really all of them), army grunts with lax discipline (A2), members of Unspecified Services/Covert Ops (A3), or whatever you are in A4. Surface-dwellers is possible, but so is playing as Darkside Loyalists. That would be different.

Would I be terribly out of line to wonder if we will be able to play as Vahnatai?

You guys often complained that we never knew enough about them. It could be almost as great as Geneforge 1 was as far as being thrown into a totally alien world goes. I also know many people hate the Vahnatai, and this could give people a refreshing new outlook on them as a whole. You could deal with Avernum, or laugh at them as they get attacked by Darkside Loyalists. Then there is Rentar, whom I hope will still be alive. Poor reformed Rentar could even be a quest giver!

[I_am_a_Minotaur]

I'd like the Geneforge walking system. I didn't like the whole square thing with the annoying sound. It bugged me seeing my characters magically move from place to place without any of their body moving.

 

I'd also like to see the new encumbrence system slighty better than in Geneforge 4, so it's not impossible for melee to do anything useful.

[Spidweb]

"Now all that's missing is secret passages. Wall bumping plz!"

 

Nope.

 

The new area is up a certain remote river (visited in early games but not Avernum 4). The obstructions in it were cleared by workers sent by the king to reach new areas for Avernum's growing population. There are predictable problems arising from this, but they aren't the main focus of the plot.

 

One of the nice things about setting a game is the underworld is, dude, there are always more caves. :-)

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:

 

Quote:

Would I be terribly out of line to wonder if we will be able to play as Vahnatai?

Not really. That question comes up a lot. Jeff said no somewhere (probably multiple somewheres), so we're stuck with that answer unless he changes his mind. For the record, Jeff also said no more Rentar.

 

Originally by Kelandon:

 

Quote:

A2 did a really good job of opening up a new area of the caves: of course we didn't know about the route to vahnatai lands, because it was opened via a cavequake. I hope that some similarly reasonable explanation will be included in A5.

Here's something Dikiyoba is wondering. Dark Waters of A2 and Exodus both follow a river full of waterfalls downstream. How do people ever travel upstream?

 

Edit: Typo.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
For the record, Jeff also said no more Rentar.

Say it isn't so! Did he mean no Rentar as a main villain, or no Rentar at all? Is she dead? At this point, Avernum without Rentar would be like Starwars without Darth Vader (meaning it's possible but somehow incomplete).

I would like for her to be in there somewhere, even if she only makes a small Vyannvas-Bok style cameo or something.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Say it isn't so! Did he mean no Rentar as a main villain, or no Rentar at all? Is she dead? At this point, Avernum without Rentar would be like Starwars without Darth Vader (meaning it's possible but somehow incomplete).

You killed her in A4. Well, not you specifically, but your party. Somehow, I suspect that A4 may have been purposely designed for that, to clear up loose ends an open up the possibilities for new enemies.

[Dintiradan]

By E.T.

Quote:

Say it isn't so! Did he mean no Rentar as a main villain, or no Rentar at all? Is she dead? At this point, Avernum without Rentar would be like Starwars without Darth Vader (meaning it's possible but somehow incomplete).

By J.V. :

Quote:

No more Erika. No more Rentar. No more Garzahd.

 

- Jeff Vogel

No means no.

 

--------------------

He's not useless, he's... use-impaired.

- Haley (OotS #17)

[Agnessa]

Hurrah!

 

Now--for a plot that doesn't squeeze you along like toothpaste in a tube?

 

I didn't mind the limits on where to go/what to do in Exile/Avernum 2's first chapters, but from the return to the ToM on, it was very open. The first game was completely open (except for the whole 'go here too soon, you get whomped' aspect), and there was a sense of wide-openness in game three, even if there were certain lines that had to be drawn straight. A4, OTOH, felt so constrained 'do not deviate from plot, straight lines only'.

 

Being more free to wander around in squiggly lines w/o getting one's nose whacked with a paper for being a bad puppy (so to speak) ... that's probably my top wish.

[aka Ravenwing]

You know, I've sometimes wondered why there are never any Vahnatai PCs. I figured that by BoA we'd probably have them available to play as characters, but it didn't turn out that way.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Nemesis:
You know, I've sometimes wondered why there are never any Vahnatai PCs. I figured that by BoA we'd probably have them available to play as characters, but it didn't turn out that way.

According to Jeff, "the Vahnatai will never be PCs because they're supposed to be alien and incomprehensible to humans."

[Ephesos]

Yay boats!

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

"Now all that's missing is secret passages. Wall bumping plz!"

 

Nope.

Okay, fine. As long as there are secret passages in some form... Nature/Cave Lore triggers, or maybe just Luck. They definitely added to the atmosphere of previous Avernums in an amazing way.

 

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:

One of the nice things about setting a game is the underworld is, dude, there are always more caves. :-)

Yay! That's what I had been hoping for.

[VCH]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
"Now all that's missing is secret passages. Wall bumping plz!"

Nope.

The new area is up a certain remote river (visited in early games but not Avernum 4). The obstructions in it were cleared by workers sent by the king to reach new areas for Avernum's growing population. There are predictable problems arising from this, but they aren't the main focus of the plot.

One of the nice things about setting a game is the underworld is, dude, there are always more caves. :-)

- Jeff Vogel

Hmm now where could that be?

[Emperor Tullegolar]

But... but... I didn't kill Rentar, I let her go!

Quote:

Vahnatai will never be PCs because they're supposed to be alien and incomprehensible to humans.

This is exactly why they would make great PCs. It would be a whole new game, right?

 

Edit: I hated secret passages. It pains me to think of how much content I may or may not have missed just because I didn't run face first into every single wall in the game.

[*i]

Sometimes death is the best thing for a character's development. Let them become history.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Stop saying that! It's not official, and I will not believe it until it is. By the way, Rentar was legendary before Erika was even born!

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
Sometimes death is the best thing for a character's development. Let them become history.

I wonder if this would work for ET?

-S-

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Spidweb:
The new area is up a certain remote river (visited in early games but not Avernum 4). The obstructions in it were cleared by workers sent by the king to reach new areas for Avernum's growing population.

Good! This is what I was hoping for. I'm glad.

Quote:

Originally written by Dikiyoba:
Here's something Dikiyoba is wondering. Dark Waters of A2 and Exodus both follow a river full of waterfalls downstream. How do people ever travel upstream?

Exodus also has a bunch of land routes for backtracking, which you do a fair bit in the scenario (going from Nakhtha back to the first Camp by land, for instance). Presumably merchants during the height of the slith empire would have gone overland bypassed the waterfalls both ways, since going down a waterfall is fine and good for adventurers, but it's not as good for someone laden down with goods for sale and money.

Still, the difficulty of passing helps to explain how the cities lost touch with each other and became independent as the empire collapsed. It's not so easy to get from Thassaka to Vasskolis that it would be inconceivable that the two cities could lose contact.

I assumed in Dark Waters that people didn't travel upstream all that much. It seemed a pretty isolated and difficult passage, and I don't remember if there was any reason to believe that people had ever gone down or up it very frequently.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Synergy:
I wonder if this would work for ET?

Quote:

Randomizer:
ET - you'll probably fade away into obscurity and be lost for all time when Jeff purges the board to make space for Geneforge X and Avernum 11.

Apparently not.

Besides, that would make me a martyr, and there can only be one, true martyr...

[Randomizer]

ET - you can die and be forgotten without becoming a martyr (except in your own mind).

 

Getting to explore an adjacent area will allow for starting characters to build up before getting into trouble. Of course this ruins my idea that we start off as surface tourists with no really useful skills going off the beaten track.

[Nioca]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
But... but... I didn't kill Rentar, I let her go!

Then she must have been crushed during the cave-in. Or another band of adventurers followed right behind you and killed her.

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
Stop saying that! It's not official, and I will not believe it until it is.

Tullegolar... She's gone. She's gone, Tullegolar, and there's nothing you can do to help her. I'm sorry for your loss. Here's to hoping you find love again someday.

This touching message is sponsored by:

[Synergy]

Quote:

Originally written by Mysterious Man:
Hey Jeff, will you put me in your next game? I'd love the recognition. The name is Ty.

Now there's no more mystery. Time to change your nick.

-S-

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Nioca:

Quote:

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

But... but... I didn't kill Rentar, I let her go!

Then she must have been crushed during the cave-in. Or another band of adventurers followed right behind you and killed her.

It was the GIFTS. They were afraid they were going to lose their status as the most loved and despised creatures in Avernum, so they killed her.

 

Quote:

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

Stop saying that! It's not official, and I will not believe it until it is.

Tullegolar... She's gone. She's gone, Tullegolar, and there's nothing you can do to help her. I'm sorry for your loss. Here's to hoping you find love again someday.

 

This touching message is sponsored by:

Dikiyoba sees the board has finally converted you to our snide ways.

[Andraste]

Can I get a quick re cap for the ending in Avernum 4? I didn't register it.

 

I know Rentar did it, and these Darkside Loyalists are bad, but is there anything else important?

[*i]

The main quest, you have the choice as to whether to kill Rentar, let her escape, or convince her to go back to her people for judgment. Canon seems to be that Rentar dies at the end.

 

The Darkside Loyalist leader, the optional side quest, escapes.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by *i:
Canon seems to be that Rentar dies at the end.

What makes you say that? Until Jeff uses the word 'dead' she could just as easily be alive in the Vahnatai lands. Just because she is not making an appearance in the next game proves nothing.

[Kelandon]

Towards the end of beta testing, I mentioned that I was glad that Rentar was gone, because she had been a problem in Blades scenarios (people bringing her back to have her final revenge, but the scenarios really sucked). Jeff had this to say: "In canon, she is dead. DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD. In Avernum 5, people will talk about how seriously, seriously dead she is."

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I don't believe you.

[Alorael at Large]

I was kind of hoping for Geneforge-esque multiple-ending vagueness.

 

"Nobody has heard from Rentar-Ihrno for a while. Not since she made a mess of Avernum a few years back. Hank says a bunch of adventurers killed her, but I heard from Fred that they handed her over to some other vahnatai for justice. I'm just glad she's not here anymore."

 

—Alorael, who can live with DEAD DEAD DEAD too. Now Avernum has a huge power vacuum, though. Without Garzahd, Erika, or Rentar, all the major players are lacking in stupendous mages. Solberg is nice and all, but he isn't the kind to move mountains.

[Slawbug]

One question about boats: are we talking Avernum style boats (yay), or Geneforge 3 style boats, which have to be one of the few Spiderweb inventions I completely and totally despise?

 

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

By the way, Rentar was legendary before Erika was even born!

Technically, Rentar was only asleep before Erika was born. But seriously, the implication of what the Olgai Council and other Vahnatai say in E/A 2 is that Rentar was not legendary -- she wasn't even the most powerful Vahnatai mage extant.

[Aran]

Quote:

Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:
But... but... I didn't kill Rentar, I let her go!

Tough. I deliberately beat her without Erika's help to avoid killing off Erika. Canon still has her dead.

Besides, the "judged by her people" has its own implications.

[The Loquacious Lord Grimm]

I always got the impression that Rentar-Ihrno was merely a tolerated presence put into good use by the Council, and that she only rose to power in the vacuum that would have occurred after Glantris-Bok died.

 

Hmm...

Boats =

Elevation =

No wall bumping =

 

Would it be too much to ask for an expansion to the spell library? I mean, it's a little underwhelming when you end the game with powerful arch-wizards and fighter-priests who only know twenty spells apiece.

And while discussing spells, what's wrong with a few novelty spells? Who doesn't like using Sticks to Snakes just because they can?

 

Let's see... as for actual speculation....

A4 brought back area of effect spells.

Now... will A5 bring back field and wall spells?

 

--------------------

The Silent Assassin wonders if there will poison again.

Specifically, rat poison; as one of his food grenades misfired in the lab last night and has brought the neighborhood's rodent population to our back door.

[*i]

I think simplicity is a virtue with the spell library. Although I would like to see a greater number of scripted monster special spells.