Hello Ladies

[Dintiradan]

Dear ladies on Spiderweb: does this make you more or less likely to pursue a career in science?

[Callie]

not this thread again

[keira]

I don't really count but it does not make a difference. I will pursue a career in what I want to pursue a career in, things like this just make the road a little bumpy.

[Aoslare]

Wow. That video is atrocious on so many levels.

 

In fact, I am just sitting here coming up with more and more levels on which it is atrocious. Ugh.

[Triumph]

Wow. I read the article before I watched the video...and I was still *surprised* by how dumb the video is.

[Nioca]

It's times like these that make me thankful I'm on dial-up.

 

Seriously, though, from reading the article (and reactions here), I have to say: Some of the best minds the planet has to offer, and this is what they come up with?

[Actaeon]

You can tailor a lab coat or make goggles look girly, but eschewing them altogether is just a bad idea.

[Dikiyoba]

How many women actually want girly-looking safety gear, though? They're more likely to care about not wanting to wear something ugly, but that doesn't automatically mean pink and bubbly and sparkly. Pink and bubbly and sparkly things can be ugly too, especially if they are just slapped-together modified versions of unisex things, with a heaping dose of sexism thrown in.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Dantius]

As a man that makes me want to pursue a STEM career less, and I'm already in one. I can't imagine how ridiculous that makes the field look to the women who aren't in it that the video is trying* to target.

 

Idiots.

[Jerakeen]

[Cairo Jim]

I'm not brave enough to watch this now, after seeing all these reviews about it. I was about to, though.

[A less presumptuous name.]

I'm with Slarty and Dantius - I think that such a video does the opposite of what it's purpose is. Unless they were trying for satire?

[Prince of Kitties]

This sounds like the second most insulting thing ever. I think I'll pass.

 

(Coincidentally, the most insulting thing ever just came out in movie form.)

[The Ratt]

Yeah, geek is the new sexy.

[Actaeon]

Quite aside from the inherant sexism, trying to make something serious stylish tends to insult the people who actually value it. There's probably a sub group of designer lab coat wearing scientists out there, but they're a minority.

 

Incidentally, did anyone else think of the Old Spice commercial when reading the title, or am I particularly brainwashed?

 

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

Incidentally, did anyone else think of the Old Spice commercial when reading the title, or am I particularly brainwashed?

I did not think Old Spice, but when I first saw the thread title, I assumed it was a spambot - then I saw that Dintiradan posted it, and I wonder what in the world it was going to be.

[Actaeon]

Actually, that brings up a question... do Spiderweb accounts ever get spamjacked the way email, Facebook, and Twitter sometimes do?

 

(Yet another question is what movie Miramor is referring to.)

[Prince of Kitties]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

(Yet another question is what movie Miramor is referring to.)

Hint: it involves vampires. And slavery. And a "secret history" where vampires are largely responsible for slavery.

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

Actually, that brings up a question... do Spiderweb accounts ever get spamjacked the way email, Facebook, and Twitter sometimes do?

(Yet another question is what movie Miramor is referring to.)

I think that happened to someone who went by Blake 182, who was banned.

[Dintiradan]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

Incidentally, did anyone else think of the Old Spice commercial when reading the title, or am I particularly brainwashed?

Are you accusing me of making a thread title that does not completely explain its contents? For shame, sir! I would never do such a thing!

[Acky]

In my experience, girls interested in pursuing science fields as a career are some of the vain-less people ever, so the idea that there's a demand for this, or that it will generate interest from females, is quite absurd.

[keira]

.

[Student of Trinity]

Originally Posted By: Adventurer Ackrovan

In my experience, girls interested in pursuing science fields as a career are some of the vain-less people ever, so the idea that there's a demand for this, or that it will generate interest from females, is quite absurd.

I think that may have been exactly their kind of thinking, though. The women already in science are not their target audience. I haven't seen this video; I understand it's been taken down. Apparently, though, its makers wanted to get science to appeal to women who are currently more interested in designer shoes than in science, or something. Up to a point there's a logic there, but somewhere they evidently lost the thread and decided to sell science like a designer shoe.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

its makers wanted to get science to appeal to women who are currently more interested in designer shoes than in science... Up to a point there's a logic there

Serious question: what is the logic there, even up to a point?

What is the logic in choosing any person who is more interested in designer shoes, as a target demographic for a future career in science?

(And forget gender, because the only way gender can be involved in this question is through the application of absurd stereotypes.)

[Lilith]

designer shoes might not be so uncomfortable if they were designed by someone with a basic knowledge of human anatomy!!

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

its makers wanted to get science to appeal to women who are currently more interested in designer shoes than in science... Up to a point there's a logic there

Serious question: what is the logic there, even up to a point?

What is the logic in choosing any person who is more interested in designer shoes, as a target demographic for a future career in science?

(And forget gender, because the only way gender can be involved in this question is through the application of absurd stereotypes.)

I'm guessing someone that thinks Legally Blonde could work for science as well as it did for law.

Physicist calculates shoe height and it includes inebriation.

[Student of Trinity]

The logic that the video might have had, up to a point, is just that there's no point in preaching to the choir. Female geeks are already into science, so you need to aim at some other group.

 

Suppose there were an analogous video aimed at persuading male jocks that science was for them. Would it have been as ridiculous? Would it have drawn as much flak?

[Jerakeen]

Throwing a football around the lab would have been as ridiculous, yeah. Flak, probably not, since it isn't considered to be as much of a negative stereotype.

[Actaeon]

I wonder why that is. Because there's a social aspect to being a sports fan? Because it implies occasional exercise? Really, in terms of intruding on practical life via time and money spent, it's probably comprable to designer shoes.

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

The logic that the video might have had, up to a point, is just that there's no point in preaching to the choir. Female geeks are already into science, so you need to aim at some other group.

1) That logic doesn't even make sense, since we already know (in fact, I think you posted about this in other threads) that some female geeks turn away from science at points when male geeks don't.
2) Even if we move past that, "some other group" and "women with an interest among the furthest removed from the skills and tasks used in science" are not the same thing.

Quote:

Suppose there were an analogous video aimed at persuading male jocks that science was for them. Would it have been as ridiculous? Would it have drawn as much flak?

It would have been as ridiculous, yes. I also think that it would have drawn just as much flak, provided it was commissioned by a supranational governmental superpower. Actually, it might receive more flak since it could also be criticized for targetting men when men are already overrepresented in science.

[Lilith]

it wouldn't be called the european onion if it didn't make people cry

[Student of Trinity]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

The logic that the video might have had, up to a point, is just that there's no point in preaching to the choir. Female geeks are already into science, so you need to aim at some other group.

1) That logic doesn't even make sense, since we already know (in fact, I think you posted about this in other threads) that some female geeks turn away from science at points when male geeks don't.

Yeah, in this case the choir does have an alarming rate of defection; but this is a quibble. The logic does make sense: if what you're talking about is getting people into science, as opposed to keeping them in it, then you need to talk to people who aren't in already. And this is a fair point. We can do better at keeping women in science once they start it, and we can also do better at getting more women to start in the first place. I happen to agree that the first strategy is probably the one to push first for now, but there's no reason we can't try to do both.

Quote:

2) Even if we move past that, "some other group" and "women with an interest among the furthest removed from the skills and tasks used in science" are not the same thing.

Right. This is where they go off the rails. But I can just sort of imagine a much better attempt at the same goal of drawing designer-shoe people into science. For instance, I have the idea that a number of successful businesswomen are reasonably fashion-conscious, since it's part of the whole upscale professional image. Young women thinking of business careers might well be dreaming of addressing board meetings in appropriate attire, including the fancy shoes. Well, some of these people might be drawn into science with a pitch along the lines of Steve Jobs's famous appeal to John Sculley: do you want to sell sugar water, or do you want to change the world?

[Alorael at Large]

I see another kernel of a good idea in there: I'd be happy to wear a better tailored lab coat. Yes, they're functional, protective clothes, but most of the time they're there as a safeguard and you don't ruin them. They're also part of the professional image, and it makes sense to want that image to be a good one.

 

—Alorael, who does wonder if some of the scientist as socially incompetent egghead stereotype keeps people out of the field. Most people don't want to be like that, most people aren't like that, but many people probably don't realize it unless they spend a lot of time around scientists. (And, for the record, there are plenty of vain, fashion-conscious scientists, male and female. Maybe proportionally fewer than in the general population, but it's not rare.)

[Aoslare]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Well, some of these people might be drawn into science with a pitch along the lines of Steve Jobs's famous appeal to John Sculley: do you want to sell sugar water, or do you want to change the world?

Do you know anyone (of any gender) who has a STEM career, and who was drawn into it largely because of Jobsesque rhetoric?

[Student of Trinity]

Well, yes and no. The pitch is rarely if ever made in so many words, just as Jobs's appeal to Sculley became legendary because it was so unusual; but in fact many scientists (for example, me) went into science for the excitement of doing Something Important with their lives. If the pitch were made well, I can imagine it working on enough people to be worth the effort.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Move Mountains and Molehills

I see another kernel of a good idea in there: I'd be happy to wear a better tailored lab coat. Yes, they're functional, protective clothes, but most of the time they're there as a safeguard and you don't ruin them. They're also part of the professional image, and it makes sense to want that image to be a good one.

Bespoke lab coats. Starting at $800.

[Aran]

This one blogger put it in terms of a Venn diagram: Take the set of all women, and the set of everyone interested in science. The union of those sets consists of people you're insulting; the intersection is your target audience.

 

I've been seeing incredulous reactions all over the net for a week now, and am still surprised now that I've actually seen the video.

[Actaeon]

Quote:

Benton: Oh, no! Would you look at this?
Mark: That's the first tailored white coat I've ever seen.
Benton: Isn't he lovely?
Susan: Lovely.
Mark: Do you think he knows anything?
Ross: He knows how to dress.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

The logic that the video might have had, up to a point, is just that there's no point in preaching to the choir. Female geeks are already into science, so you need to aim at some other group.

I can see that train of thought, but it's doomed to failure. The way to interest someone in science, regardless of geekiness, is to show her how awesome science is. If that doesn't work, then science might just not be her thing.

[VCH]

On a related note I now have that vid's slogan stuck in my head.

 

"Science it's a Girl thing. Science . . ."

 

I guess one thing they got right was the focus on chemistry and physics stuff. The Biology boat is already filled with girls.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: VCH

I guess one thing they got right was the focus on chemistry and physics stuff. The Biology boat is already filled with girls.

I wonder why that is. Are women interested in different kinds of science, or is it a self-perpetuating effect?
Similarly, the gender balance is far more equal in mathematics than in computer science where I study, and those fields really don't differ significantly in the type of interest they require.

[Dintiradan]

The thing is, aside from Sexy Equation Woman, none of the women are depicted doing anything even tangentially related to science, other than donning safety glasses at the very end. With very little editing, you could change the video to be about anything. But then, I guess you could say the same thing about some beer commercials (or, to bring this thread full circle, some deodorant commercials).

 

(Sexy Equation Woman makes me jealous. I wish I looked that good whenever I write stuff on the board.)

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Aʀᴀɴ

Originally Posted By: VCH

I guess one thing they got right was the focus on chemistry and physics stuff. The Biology boat is already filled with girls.

I wonder why that is.

They're aiming to be medical doctors, or at least in my experience.

[Aran]

Wouldn't people aiming to be medical doctors be studying medicine? Biology is about living organisms, but has little to do with the various ways a human one can go wrong or be fixed.

[Aoslare]

Women are socialized to be more interested in interpersonal relationships than men are. Biology is about the things that can have relationships. Other branches of science are not.

 

Plus, at the middle/high school level -- where most Americans, at least, are introduced to different areas of science -- biology involves less quantitative reasoning and more qualitative reasoning than either chemistry or physics. Anecdotally, teenage girls tend to like quantitative academics less than teenage boys, for whatever reason -- socialization, I'm looking at you again.

 

I'm curious if anyone's seen numbers of what gender balance (or other demographics, actually) is like in different areas of academia more specifically. How many women does genetics get as opposed to neuroscience? What about classics versus philosophy?

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Aʀᴀɴ

Wouldn't people aiming to be medical doctors be studying medicine? Biology is about living organisms, but has little to do with the various ways a human one can go wrong or be fixed.

Most people I know who plan to be medical doctors pick biology-related undergraduate degrees such as biochemistry. Similarly, I'm majoring in chemical engineering. The school offers several different emphasis' and all but one of the women in my class is in the biomedical emphasis with the intent to go into medical school.

Of course, that's just anecdotal, so that's not any bit meaningful, but I'm fairly certain that's not just endemic to where I attend school.

[Lilith]

Relevant cultural fact: in the US, it's not actually possible to study medicine straight out of high school. All medical degrees are exclusively postgraduate degrees. You need an undergraduate degree in something else first, although many universities offer "pre-medical" programs designed specifically to prepare students for medicine.

[Harehunter]

You are exactly correct, and the bulk of those pre-med courses are in the field of biology. Organic chemistry is also a requirement, but that is as far as it goes in that direction.

[Student of Trinity]

You don't necessarily need a full degree to get into med school. Two years of pre-med can be enough.

[VCH]

Here's a good graph. It looks like more women than men earn Biology degrees. (I actually had several upper level courses (e.g., community ecology, and animal behaviour) with a total of 4 men in them compared to ~25 women.)

 

I couldn't get the graph to display so here's a link.

 

A large version of this graph (page 9) plus loads more info can be found HERE