In response to the recent drama

[keira]

(note: this was originally in reply to the pony thread, which became locked as I was writing it. I still feel like it needs to be said, and have made some modifications to make it fit better out of context. If there's still some weirdness, sorry)

 

I want to rant.

 

I don't know Dikiyoba's situation. I don't know if Dikiyoba is okay with said situation. Honestly we've never really talked much and...yeah. I only know my situation, so I'm mostly speaking for myself here. As someone who doesn't fit nicely into the typical everyday gender binary, comments like this fill me with a mixture of sadness and rage. I live in a very conservative area, and it is very difficult to live as I do. In fact, I can't. I can't tell anyone IRL about my situation because of the backlash, and I've lived in a constant state of fear because I really don't want to be homeless at this point in my life.

 

Honestly, I don't think I've opened a SW game at all this year. I came to SW because of BoE, but by no means is that why I stick around. Yeah, I play around with BoX and I've released a couple crappy scenarions. But that's not why I'm here. I come to SW because it's somewhere I can be safe, and not deal with hatred just because I'm weirded out by what's between my legs.

 

Yeah, I've gotten flak about being a MLP fan, but I don't have a problem with that. It's good to remember that people have different tastes and that I am, in fact, a little obsessed. I'm okay with it. But when the sort of stuff happens like in the end of the "favorite pony" thread, I get really annoyed and really angry, really fast. Like I said in that topic, there's a big difference between taking a about your taste in literature|music|tv|food|whatever and taking a hit about your gender identity. In my book, it's just as bad as insulting someone based on race, if not worse.

 

Living in this world sucks. I'm being honest here. I've been dealing with depression off and on for several years now, and there have been times when I've considered suicide. And I know for a fact that there are plenty of people out there who have it worse than I do. 1 in 4 gay teens become homeless the day they come out. 40% of transgender folks are unemployed. I'm sure there's plenty more statistics out there that tell a grim tale. I consider myself to be lucky that I still have a roof over my head, and as of this summer will have a job. Still, I'm saddened by the fact that all of that would go away if I said how I really felt.

 

There are two reasons why I'm on the internet so much. One is because I'm a fat dweeb and have no friends. The other is because it is my safe haven, a place where people don't judge me because of silly Real Life Problems. And when I see things invading my safe haven, I get scared.

 

The last couple weeks have felt pretty tense around SW. We've had three topics end in flames just in General. I don't know what the deal is, but I think everyone needs to take a step back. I just am asking everyone to help maintain a friendly atmosphere around here, where it can be a safe haven for all members. Just...please don't ruin the internet for me. It's all I've got.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Wow. I leave for a couple of weeks to party and get a bad flu, and the forums catch fire.

 

For what it's worth, I think your reaction to this is both reasonable and understandable. I'm not trans or genderqueer myself (and so can't claim to understand the experience firsthand), but if I'd been around when someone said something like Trenton did to a trans/GQ friend of mine*, I would have to seriously restrain myself from slapping them. Not a playful "cut that crap out" slap, either. Transphobia is an ugly, nasty form of bigotry.

 

*Which, thankfully, I don't have to very often, as I live in one of the most liberal parts of the country and people generally frown on transphobia.

[Aran]

(If this is fire, then the forum were perpetually aflame back in the days.)

 

Anyway, I understand your reaction. You get enough crap in real life - are in fact in danger in real life - that this forum should provide a safe haven. Stuff like what Trenton said (an escalation made in ignorance, I suspect, of how much more Serious Business gender identity is than taste in literature) absolutely cannot stand.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Aran: So I hear. They didn't seem so hostile or incendiary during my stint in 2002-3, but I mostly stuck around the Avernum pages and away from general & misc., so I may have a biased sample.

[Erebus the Black]

You're OK in my book.

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't say to myself "I wish I was alive" just so I won't say "I wish I was dead" and I'm in less of a tight spot.

[Tyranicus]

I have no issues with people choosing whatever sexual and gender orientations they feel the most comfortable with. It is their life, and they should live it whatever way they choose. It saddens me deeply (and fills me with rage at times) that other people are close-minded enough to feel differently. I have never understood how it matters in the slightest to anyone else how someone personally chooses to identify themselves.

[Actaeon]

Any offense I've given was probably out of ignorance. That's probably true out of a lot of members. I come from a (liberal) small town, and vocal social minorities tend to congregate in cities (although the sex change capital of Colorado is Trinidad). I do not need the internet to escape from my life. I'm here because it represents a chance to interact with people from all walks of life, who wouldn't be likely to chat over tea in the real world. I want to be educated, although I wish these issues weren't so prone to flamewars.

 

Perhaps an off forum dialogue is an order. Calamity Refuge, whatever else people may think of it, offers a way to deal in fraught issues without having to worry about Jeff's family friendly business. Plus, the alternative gender/sexuality crowd starts with the establishment in hand, and that's not an opportunity that comes up often.

[Prince of Kitties]

Sylae - as someone with emotional problems who finds solace on the intertubes, I want to say "welcome to the club," but I get the feeling you were there before me. It's a truly sucky situation, and I hope things get better for you.

 

Please do stick around though! We need someone who knows how to make BoE cross-compile on Linux.

 

As for MLP, I've never been interested in it (and wasn't following the thread), but there are people of all sorts and all genders who unabashedly love it. It's cool by me.

[ex post slarto]

Originally Posted By: Aʀᴀɴ

You get enough crap in real life - are in fact in danger in real life - that this forum should provide a safe haven. Stuff like what Trenton said (an escalation made in ignorance, I suspect, of how much more Serious Business gender identity is than taste in literature) absolutely cannot stand.

This.

However:

Aran makes an important observation: Trenton's comments were made out of ignorance. Trenton is not the only one who is ignorant of these issues. There is no question that this forum should provide a safe haven. However, as Lilith pointed out to me over AIM the other day, exactly what constitutes a safe haven is not going to be obvious to everyone who comes here.

On the one hand, we will have young kids like Trenton, who probably hear slurs about gender norms and sexual orientations on an hourly basis at school, and have had very little exposure to people who have openly made different life choices. We will also have users who come from other internet gaming forums, with similarly hateful atmospheres. These people simply don't know what's expected, and may not understand it.

On the other hand we will have people who should know better, but who make mistakes anyway. Let's use me as an example. I am part of the "alternate gender/sexuality crowd"; I spent years volunteering for a feminist organization that went out of its way to be trans friendly; and I've been here for years, too. But I have still managed to slip up and say things that have, quite understandably, offended people -- using pronouns when I shouldn't have, for example. My intentions were never ill, but that doesn't mean my actions were always perfect.

So, I'm going suggest something that I hope isn't too controversial:

EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.

If someone walks in here throwing around racial slurs, the mods ban them; it does not, however, justify the mods cursing them out as they do so.

Furthermore, this is a situation where, when members have disrupted the safe space, there has been an element of ignorance or mistakenness involved. This in no way justifies their actions, but it DOES inform what the most constructive response is. Yelling at people does not create a safe space for anyone -- even if the other person started it. If people say bad things out of ignorance or mistakenness, the most constructive response is to politely educate them as to what the problem is. (If that doesn't work, THEN pull out the guns.)

There is simply no way around this. It would be great if the whole world understood and respected nontraditional genders, but most people don't. Again, that doesn't justify anything, but it does inform what the most constructive response is.


Finally, if we're going to be sensitive to what makes a safe space in terms of gender and gender identity -- which we absolutely should -- we still need to be sensitive to what makes a safe space in other terms. That includes Twilight.

I happen to think the series is stupid. So do a lot of other people. And no, for most people it is not as core a part of their identity as gender can be. Nonetheless, I've seen fans of the series get teased over it in middle and high school, and I've seen them form a bitter little clique as a result. The teenage years are a time when your identity shifts a lot. Maybe Trenton isn't really serious about the series. But maybe he is. It's hard to tell. But I don't think it's so hard to put ourselves in his shoes: another member attacked something that he has made a point of championing, and even emblazoned in his PDN. Yes, there was a attached, but the stigmatization of Twilight fans is common enough that this would be kind of like saying "Your opinion doesn't count because you're gay. " -- exactly the kind of comment that TM and Alec used to make, that I used to complain to the mods about. You could take it as a joke, or you could take it as something that reinforces the societal prejudice against a low status group.

To be clear, Twilight fans are NOT a historically marginalized group the way that "the alternate gender/sexuality crowd" is. In many ways, the two categories cannot be compared. But I don't think it's asking too much for us to respect all people here, and not to needlessly denigrate anyone's personality.

In summation:

EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.
WHEN IGNORANCE INTERFERES, EDUCATE THEM, BUT DO IT WITH THE SAME RESPECT YOU DESERVE.

[Kelandon]

There are contexts when, among friends, people can make fun of each other in good humor for whatever traits they may possess. It's easy to imagine that this is one of those places, and sometimes it is. And some people think they're funny or not really serious when they don't come across that way in writing (lack of tone of voice, facial expressions, etc.).

 

So if someone says something offensive or stupid or offensively stupid or stupidly offensive, it's generally best not to flip out. Explain why it's not okay to say that and move on.

 

I tend to think that we won't have moved past prejudice until the comments that are today offensive are tomorrow confusing or funny. Let's try and get there a little faster by not taking offense.

[Harehunter]

Quote:

In summation:

EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.
WHEN IGNORANCE INTERFERES, EDUCATE THEM, BUT DO IT WITH THE SAME RESPECT YOU DESERVE.

I second that emotion. While most of my beliefs tend to be more conservative, one thing that predominates in my mind is this.
EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.

Well spoken Slarty.

[*i]

First, I want to formally apologize to Sylae and anyone who may have felt offended because of actions on this board. If there are people being seriously offensive to you, please do as Kel says,

 

So if someone says something offensive or stupid or offensively stupid or stupidly offensive, it's generally best not to flip out. Explain why it's not okay to say that and move on.[\quote]

 

If the issue persists, let the mods or me know, so we can then take further action. We want this place to be a friendly environment for everyone, and we hope that this "self-policing" of members telling each other, firmly and politely, that what they said is not okay works and we don't have to invoke moderator powers, but we will if necessary.

 

Finally, Slarty has an excellent post above. If you haven't read it, read it. If you have, read it again. It's sage advice, and if we all follow it more often, this place will be a better place for everyone.

[Student of Trinity]

Trying not to be offensive, and trying not to flip out if you get offended, is probably the best we can do, anyway.

 

For instance, in this last bit of drama, Trenton said some things that were offensive, but Dikiyoba had just told him that none of his opinions mattered because he liked Twilight, and that sort of thing is not really so fun to read, either. I confess I could easily have said posted something much the same (except that I am so old and out of touch that I scarcely know what Twilight is). In fact I made my own obnoxious remark earlier in the thread, and Sylae responded with appropriate dignity.

 

We can't necessarily count on everyone having Sylae's poise and articulacy, though, so I could well have caused an explosion at that point, with a remark that was meant in my mind to be wryly funny or something, but in fact had a pointlessly rude edge to it. So I'm certainly sorry for that, and don't mean to excuse it. But realistically, people are sometimes going to say offensive things. Even, though of course we of all people shouldn't, moderators.

 

We could try to clamp rigidly down on every possibly disrespectful remark. Maybe we should. But honestly I think the price would just be too high. One person's casual banter is another person's hurtful barb. To eliminate every possible offense, we'd have to make this a positively painful place to visit, where everyone had to scour their own posts for unintended implications before hitting Submit.

 

So instead of that I think the best can do is all try to do our best not to be rude, as Slarty says, and try to be patient and give people the benefit of the doubt. We will also have to keep reprimanding and banning people that don't even seem to be trying. Beyond that, though, I think reactions like Sylae's, including threads like this one, are our best fall-back strategy, to clear the air and straighten things out.

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.
WHEN IGNORANCE INTERFERES, EDUCATE THEM, BUT DO IT WITH THE SAME RESPECT YOU DESERVE.

And this².

[Xaiya]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.
WHEN IGNORANCE INTERFERES, EDUCATE THEM, BUT DO IT WITH THE SAME RESPECT YOU DESERVE.

I fully agree with this, though it isn't always easy.
I'm not transgender, so I couldn't identify exactly like that, but I do have an alternative sexuality.
I'd say more, but I've already spoken to Sylae in private many times, so yeah.

[nikki.]

Hmm. Thanks for the thread, Sylae. I'm going to preface this with a big fat "as far as I know, I'm not part of the "alternate gender/sexuality crowd" (ick descriptor, but it has a precedence in the thread) but I don't identify strongly with either gender, and have recieved a fair amount of flak from people who consider that I don't fit into the binary idea of gender (even from people on these boards, as I recall it)." In essence, I'm pretty much not overly emotionally attached to the issues we were talking about. Anyway.

 

Not to target users, or single anybody out (and here comes the hypocritical but, as it were), but Trenton did know, and acknowledge that Dikiyoba was intending to be humorous. How much that attempt missed the mark is by the by, and not what I wanted to get at; Trenton saw the attempt at humour, and levelled pretty much the most insulting thing he could think of; he could've picked the third person gimmick, for example, or even just the dinosaur thing, if he was sticking to PDNs, but he pretty much, by his own admission, selcted something that he'd picked up from "many posts".

 

Now, I have a point, and probably should've stated it first so as to not turn people off with the previous paragraph. It's an important thing to try and educate ignorant people on what is okay and what isn't (and Slarty's bold caps certainly are justified), but, I dunno. It feels that whilst "everybody should be made to feel welcome" is a great mantra, and one we should all repeat, and embody, we're calling what amounts to bullying a lack of information.

 

This probably should be a PM to somebody, but, honestly, I don't have the slightest idea who to send it to. So, here it is.

 

Edit: And my goodness, yes, lets keep this place a safe haven for people; in all my years of internetting, SW is pretty much the only place I still frequent from my earliest days online. It's certainly the online community I most strongly associate myself with.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: and each wore a bowler hat

Edit: And my goodness, yes, lets keep this place a safe haven for people; in all my years of internetting, SW is pretty much the only place I still frequent from my earliest days online. It's certainly the online community I most strongly associate myself with.

This pretty much sums up the Internet.

The positive is it allows you to meet with people that you have something in common no matter how far away they are in real life. I stay here for different reasons then the rest of you, but there are enough things to make me stay.

The negative is that people can bully others from the comfort of their homes and without being punished for it.`

[ex post slarto]

Trenton's comment does not amount to bullying. An insensitive insult, yes; bullying, no. It was a one-off rejoinder made in the moment, not a pattern of behavior that makes use of a power imbalance; and in this setting, the power imbalance certainly doesn't favor Trenton.

 

Trenton said he was aware it was meant humorously, but he also said that he took it as an insult. Those two things are not contradictory. Again, let's compare to the times that Alec and TM said "Yeah, but your opinion doesn't matter because you're gay. " I knew they were joking, and in their case even trying to lampoon anti-gay sentiment, but that didn't make the statement any more pleasant to read -- and Imban, Saunders, and Alorael can all testify that I sent them PMs asking why the hell TM wasn't banned yet. (Happily, I kept an open mind, and counted TM as a friend by the following year.)

 

Finally, if you go back and read Trenton's post, it really doesn't sound like he said "pretty much the most insulting thing he could think of." It sounds like he wanted to make a point about "how would you like it if I starting cracking jokes about something that you take seriously." If you look at Trenton's pronoun use in the next post, it makes it pretty clear that Trenton had no idea why the genderlessness of the dinosaur was important to Dikiyoba. Clearly, Trenton bit off more than he could chew, but let's not go ascribing hurtful intentions that there is no evidence for.

[Luca]

Quote:

...exactly what constitutes a safe haven is not going to be obvious to everyone who comes here.

Moreover (and to reiterate), what is recognized as a sensitive topic, or a potentially insensitive reply may be subjective as well. Many times it isn't an issue of over-sensitivity as it is misunderstanding. When you live in an environment that is prone to give you shell-shock on certain topics, your mind can easily jump to the conclusion that you are being attacked. Consequently, the response in this situation can be a bit of an outburst especially when it comes from a place you don't expect it.

Quote:

it really doesn't sound like he said "pretty much the most insulting thing he could think of."

Make no mistake, there are people out there who like to milk stereotypes, scorn differences, and be filled with a sense of false-supremacy...but it is important to understand when this is actually occurring. More often, what I see in places like this is people at fault for nothing more than making a bad misunderstood joke or just not understanding because they live in a sheltered environment. I'm sheltered too, for example I have never met someone from Saudi Arabia, despite Arabic being my foreign language. Instead, I am at the direct mercy of the books I read and the courses I take to be accurate and written without a slant and, even then, I have no actual physical experience talking to someone about what it's like to be someone from that part of the world. But what's more troubling is finding a situation where someone does say or otherwise exhibit ignorance and it's over-reacted to instead of calmly educated. That's the part that troubles me because, in the end, no one will be the wiser unless it's handled properly.
So then the question becomes "what is proper?", especially when you have so many viewpoints and so many knowledgeable people in the aforementioned "shell shock" mode. The heart of dealing with topics like this is just practicing tolerance with at least the notion that perhaps you have something to learn. I always tell myself that anything is generally at least four times harder than it looks to do and about ten times more complicated than you could possibly expect. At least to get the full picture.

Practice tolerance.
Practice equality.
Walk in someone else's shoes, even when you think you've been wronged.

[nikki.]

Perhaps "bullying" wasn't the right word, but I think it goes a little beyond "insensitive"; he did choose something that would cause hurt, rather than just something Diki took seriously, and I believe the use of the word "he" in his next post backs up this point of view; Trenton's admitted that he knows genderless pronouns is how Dikiyoba likes to be addressed, so his choice not to do so stinks.

 

I'm not saying that Dikiyoba's first post was right, or in any way called for, but it was at least met with an acknowledgement of its intent, even if it was insulting. Trenton could've been polite in his defence, but he wasn't. Maybe it's an age thing, I don't know. I really don't want to start attacking members, and I really don't want to spoil this thread. As I said, I felt that I would've preferred to IM/PM somebody this, but I didn't know who; it was more gut-reaction than anything. My whole thing was "yeah, I agree with Slarty's first post, but here's an example where that didn't work, and people are still calling it ignorance". I apologise if that didn't come across, but I'm nowhere near as eloquent as I sound in my head.

[ex post slarto]

Neb -- brilliantly put. *applause*

 

Originally Posted By: and each wore a bowler hat

...Slarty's first post, but here's an example where that didn't work, and people are still calling it ignorance

Where exactly was the part where people tried to educate Trenton about why this matters and is not a good thing to joke about? Sylae's response was certainly polite, but it hardly amounts to educating a sheltered 13-year-old boy about gender spectra. I also don't see the part where it didn't work. Trenton's response to Sylae was also polite and explained why he had made his post, and after that the thread was locked.

 

My post was advocating a way to handle these kinds of comments when they are made, not a way to somehow prevent them from ever being said in the first place. But I think Neb (and SoT above) articulated that nuance better than I did.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Where exactly was the part where people tried to educate Trenton about why this matters and is not a good thing to joke about?

The previous threads which devolved to a slanging match between moderators, where all sense of decorum vanished was what I was initially thinking. If Trenton didn't see them, and it's possible that he was smart enough to avoid that morass, he admits that he's seen Dikiyoba make "many" posts about Diki's status; he knew beforehand it was a horrible area to get into. (For clarity, as I have been made aware it was needed: if Trenton didn't get that gender identity was a horrible area to get into from the recent debates, he knows that Dikiyoba has posted Dikiyoba's wishes many times. Just being in this community for as long as he has would've been enough.)

I really want to leave this topic alone now, because I don't want to make anybody feel uncomfortable, myself included. I don't think I'm contending anything you said about the way forward, really, just that my reading of the situation was different. I guess that's why we have different people offering different opinions, but I do think what I'm taking from the pony thread is actual substance rather than straw-clutching.

[ex post slarto]

If Trenton doesn't know much about how gender identity can work, he wouldn't see Dikiyoba's stated preference as being any different from his own stated preference. That's the state of affairs that his posts suggested to me. *shrug*

 

I'm content to stop arguing this. I don't think it's a waste or a digression, though. Hashing out the details of this public but already-frozen situation -- possibly the least venomous of the three locked threads -- is illustrative of (1) how tough these situations are to handle properly, and (2) how much room there is to interpret the same action in different lights.

[Erebus the Black]

I'd have thought that this is a subject Jeff would rather avoid, given it is so very controversial. I mean if someone came here and said I don't want to buy any of these games because you freely support gay and transgender rights, would he just tell them to [censor] off?

[VCH]

Trenton just did what most people do when they feel hurt—they respond with some angry, and in their mind, equally hurtful remark.

 

Just because someone says something hurtful about you in the "heat of the moment" doesn't mean they necessarily believe what they said. Gender and homophobic slurs are common missiles to sling because they are good pointy projectiles no matter who you aim them at. I may smash you in the face with a rock during a fight, but that doesn't mean I want to continue smashing you afterwards.

 

In summary: if you're fat, expect to be called fat in an altercation; if you're gay expect to be called gay; if you're rich expect to be called a 1%er, etc, etc.

[Randomizer]

This is less about supporting rights than being civil to other people. You can keep whatever bigoted narrow-minded views you have as long as you don't express them here. The idea is to come here and express views without insulting other posters.

 

This is why we don't have Mac vs Windows flame wars anymore.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

The idea is to come here and express views without insulting other posters.

Sometimes this is not so easy . . . no?

[Aran]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

This is why we don't have Mac vs Windows flame wars anymore.

Though I'd love to rekindle Nephils vs. Sliths just for old times' sake some day.

(Spoiler alert: The Vahnatai win.)

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: Aʀᴀɴ

(Spoiler alert: The Vahnatai win.)

Of course they do, they always do.( unless there are demons involved)

 

 

<-- see picture

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

This is less about supporting rights than being civil to other people. You can keep whatever bigoted narrow-minded views you have as long as you don't express them here. The idea is to come here and express views without insulting other posters.

 

This is why we don't have Mac vs Windows flame wars anymore.

I'll take that "You" you placed there as "One" in order to not take offence, and keep the rest of this thought to myself.

[VCH]

The Nephilim win because they have goblin allies. Also they can use long-bows, whereas the Sliths can use only javelins as ranged weapons. Moreover, the Nephil, being mammals have the advantage of being warm-blooded which allows them to move around in the colder caves of Avernum. The Sliths in comparison are restricted to the warmest locales.

[Lilith]

I'd have thought that this is a subject Jeff would rather avoid, given it is so very controversial. I mean if someone came here and said I don't want to buy any of these games because you freely support gay and transgender rights, would he just tell them to [censor] off?

 

He just might. He's included openly gay characters in his games, always portrayed in a positive light, and it seems to be an issue he particularly cares about.

[keira]

Just because someone says something hurtful about you in the "heat of the moment" doesn't mean they necessarily believe what they said. Gender and homophobic slurs are common missiles to sling because they are good pointy projectiles no matter who you aim them at. I may smash you in the face with a rock during a fight, but that doesn't mean I want to continue smashing you afterwards.

 

So that means it's okay to drop racial slurs if I ever get in an argument with a black person?

 

No matter what way you cut it, the metaphorical face has been smashed, whether or not you would continue smashing is irrelevant. A rock thrown is a rock thrown.

 

Trenton said something very insulting. We can give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he didn't know it was insulting (which, let's be honest, he obviously did know), but after he was informed that it was insulting, he went and did it again.

Edited November 23, 2012 by אראנכאיתאר
and in no way does Dikiyoba

[ex post slarto]

Originally Posted By: Sylae

but after he was informed that it was insulting, he went and did it again.

If this happened, I haven't seen it, and maybe that would explain why we are viewing Trenton's comment in such different lights. Unless I am totally blind, Trenton only made one negative comment in the pony thread. Can someone point me to his other insulting comment, and to the education that should have prevented the second one?

[keira]

insult one.

 

that is offensive.

 

insult two.

[tridash]

I think the second one can be taken as a misunderstanding of someone unaware of the issues of gender identity rather than an insult?

[nikki.]

I think the second one can be taken as a misunderstanding of someone unaware of the issues of gender identity rather than an insult?

 

Yeah, I can absolutely see this reading of it, and mistakes do happen. On the other hand, whilst it could be carelessness/accidental, we still know that he 1) wanted to retaliate, and 2) was aware, by his own admission, that Dikiyoba prefers that people do not use gendered pronouns when addressing or speaking about Diki.

 

I don't think you can assume it was entirely accidental.

[tridash]

The first one was certainly meant as retaliation, but I still think (and hope) that the second post was meant to justify the first, not to carry on retaliating. It's quite reasonable to think Trenton used 'he' without thinking at all. I'm not excusing the first one, but when I was 13 I certainly wasn't well-informed about gender identity etc.

[ex post slarto]

No offense to Trenton, but have you noticed how fast and loose his posts are with regard to ALL details -- whether grammatical or content-related? I find it hard to believe that he would ever choose a pronoun as a calculated personal attack. Regardless:

 

In this context, "that is quite insulting" does not count as education. It was a very appropriate response, but in no way does it address the huge gap of knowledge that a typical American 13-year-old boy will have on this subject.

 

In fact, I'm not even sure Trenton understands that Dikiyoba does not identify as cisgender in real life. He used "genderless" as an adjective applied to "dinosaur." A lot of us have identities and gimmicks on these forums that do not apply to us in real life. Alorael is not a sniper and he is not addicted to skribbane, for example. "Dinosaur" is obviously not any more realistic, and for a 13-year-old who probably doesn't even know any trans people, "genderless" may seem just as unlikely as "sniper".

 

I dunno -- it seems to me that although everyone talks about giving Trenton the benefit of the doubt, many of us are not actually willing to do so. I'm a little uncomfortable with that, because as Student of Trinity stated earlier, we ALL have moments where we say the wrong thing, and we need people to give us the benefit of the doubt so that we do not feel cast out of the community simply for erring -- humanly.

[Actaeon]

Alorael is not a sniper and he is not addicted to skribbane, for example.

Some of us weren't ready to hear that, Slarty. Do you tell kids about Santa, too?

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Jonathan Winters

"Can't we all just get along."
-- The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming

[Luca]

Originally Posted By: and each wore a bowler hat

Yeah, I can absolutely see this reading of it, and mistakes do happen. On the other hand, whilst it could be carelessness/accidental, we still know that he 1) wanted to retaliate...

Looks like Trenton wasn't the only one...
I see my post on shell-shock and knowing when things are happening has gone on deaf ears, except for Slarty's comments.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Alorael is not a sniper and he is not addicted to skribbane, for example.

Some of us weren't ready to hear that, Slarty. Do you tell kids about Santa, too?

Originally Posted By: Sherlock

People don't really go to heaven when they die. They're taken to a special room and burned. NEXT!

[Randomizer]

Quote:

"When you're dead, you're dead. Until then there is ice cream."
-- Patrick Jane, The Mentalist

[Sullust]

I was initially planning on asking which pronoun Dikiyoba preferred; but then I noticed Wikipedia had an entire article devoted to the subject [link].

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Lt. Sullust

I was initially planning on asking which pronoun Dikiyoba preferred; but then I noticed Wikipedia had an entire article devoted to the subject [link].

I'm using the "shklee" one from now on. Awesome.

[ex post slarto]

I believe we can now safely invoke Dintiradan's Law.

[Harehunter]

I have always loved the way language evolves, but to witness a more than minor shift in real time feels peculiar to this half century old brain. I shall endeavor to comply by the rules. Please, be patient with me while I adapt, and understand that I mean no offense should I slip.

[Actaeon]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

I'm using the "shklee" one from now on. Awesome.

... Does that actually exist outside "The Beast with a Billion Backs"?

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

In fact, I'm not even sure Trenton understands that Dikiyoba does not identify as cisgender in real life. He used "genderless" as an adjective applied to "dinosaur." A lot of us have identities and gimmicks on these forums that do not apply to us in real life. Alorael is not a sniper and he is not addicted to skribbane, for example. "Dinosaur" is obviously not any more realistic, and for a 13-year-old who probably doesn't even know any trans people, "genderless" may seem just as unlikely as "sniper".

actually i always thought it was a board gimmick also

[Jerakeen]

I quite like "thon". It's easy to say, and actually has some linguistic justification.