Well-Actually War Trall Balladeer Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Al, right, that was his name. Originally Posted By: Kreador This suffers the logical fallacy of cherry picking data points. Yes, there have ALWAYS been examples of incompetent or barely competent men used for comedic entertainments. Think back to Polonius in Hamlet, portrayed as an idiot spouting cliches and calling them wisdom. That doesn't mean that every male character in entertainment is a knock on the male psyche, or that there's a pattern of denigrating men throughout popular entertainment. I disagree. Yes, there have always been the comedic relief characters in our entertainment, but less and less are there genuine strong male characters to play along side them. The fool has become the main character if not the only character. Maybe that's just what our culture finds funny these days, and thus what comes out as successful comedies, but I still don't like it. Quote: The bumbling guy who somehow still manages to get by and be lovable is a staple, yes, in large part because a lot of men do wonder why the people in their lives love them when they're clearly not the supermen they think they're supposed to be. Not saying guys should have the expectation of 'Superman' hanging over them, but, to touch on Lilith's point, I don't want guys to conform to considerably lower expectations either. I want my boys to grow up striving to be strong competent men rather than settling for bumbling fool, and I wouldn't mind there being a few more entertaining role model characters on prime time to show them what that might look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unflappable Drayk ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Jewels in Black I want my boys to grow up striving to be strong competent men rather than settling for bumbling fool, and I wouldn't mind there being a few more entertaining role model characters on prime time to show them what that might look like. 007 terminator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie Originally Posted By: Jewels in Black I want my boys to grow up striving to be strong competent men rather than settling for bumbling fool, and I wouldn't mind there being a few more entertaining role model characters on prime time to show them what that might look like. 007 terminator If you want your kids to be soulless automatons, or alcoholic womanisers, then you could do a lot worse than Ernie's suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Prince of Kitties Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 ... Yeah. I recall reading an essay once that praised the Arthurian legends, on the grounds that King Arthur is a better heroic role model than action hero types: he doesn't just go around kicking behinds, he builds a kingdom. Not sure I agree entirely with the premise, but it made the point. Honestly I'm a lot less worried about "goofball" character stereotypes, than about "action hero" ones. Fantasy is fantasy, and people generally recognize it as such, but I think there's a bit much emphasis on the idea that a guy has to be able to do violence to be a Real Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Kelifornia Girls If you want your kids to be soulless automatons, or alcoholic womanisers, then you could do a lot worse than Ernie's suggestions! I don't know about you, but if my kids ever lock a midget manservant in a suitcase while fleeing his bosses' murder in a stolen master assassin's private yacht, I'll count myself a fairly successful father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Dantius I don't know about you, but if my kids ever lock a midget manservant in a suitcase while fleeing his bosses' murder in a stolen master assassin's private yacht, I'll count myself a fairly successful father. Well, yeah, but you'd never get to know about it. Secret Service, and all that. I'm trying to think of some reasonable male role models I wouldn't mind my hypothetical children aspiring to become. I'm blanking somewhat, but that's possibly because my relationship with television and movies as been somewhat strained for a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I would be hard pressed to recommend any character portrayed in T.V. or films as a positive role model. More often than not, men are portrayed at one end or the other on the stereotypical scale; clueless and bumbling, or ultra macho and combative (Rambo). The key, I would think, is to find someone who fits right in the middle of that scale. You won't find that sort of character in the Hollywood versions because these guys are so ordinary, that they don't stand out, they don't have "entertainment value". In fact, they are downright boring. The ideal I would set for my grandchildren, regardless of gender, is to be self-confident without being arrogant, to be honest not only to others but to themselves as well, to be polite and courteous to whomever they meet, but don't be afraid to confront those who seek to bully others, or to otherwise cause harm to someone. The men would be taught to respect women and to take responsibility for their children and their wife. The women would be taught that they have the right to expect nothing less than that, should they get into a relationship that does not provide that, they don't have to stay in it; they can walk away from it, and if they need assistance for it, well that is what the family is for. Not very exciting is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Harehunter More often than not, men are portrayed at one end or the other on the stereotypical scale; clueless and bumbling, or ultra macho and combative (Rambo). The key, I would think, is to find someone who fits right in the middle of that scale. You won't find that sort of character in the Hollywood versions because these guys are so ordinary, that they don't stand out, they don't have "entertainment value". In fact, they are downright boring. I dunno. I think Xander in Buffy works for this. And if we want somebody clever and ass-kicky, how about Giles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Brocktree Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Kelifornia Girls Originally Posted By: Darth Ernie Originally Posted By: Jewels in Black I want my boys to grow up striving to be strong competent men rather than settling for bumbling fool, and I wouldn't mind there being a few more entertaining role model characters on prime time to show them what that might look like. 007 terminator If you want your kids to be soulless automatons, or alcoholic womanisers, then you could do a lot worse than Ernie's suggestions! I think he was referring to Kyle Reese. And what man doesn't want to be James Bond? Furthermore, what woman doesn't *want* James Bond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Xander who left his bride at the altar? Xander who tried to hide from his previous girl friend that he was cheating on her. Giles only girl friend was killed so you don't have much of basis to judge how he would have worked out. There was also that time Buffy found out the reason Giles keeps removing and cleaning his glasses is so that he doesn't have to see what is going on around him. "I see nothing. ,,," Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Heroes was a good role model. Married, owned a successful candy company, and in the pilot episode knew enough of what the prisoners were doing to warn them. He just wanted to get through the war without having to fight and bribes of food were just a bonus to ignore what was going on in the camp. Now you have Jack Bauer on 24 as the macho hero that has a failed relationship with his family and started having moral qualms about how he got the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Randomizer Snip I think you missed the point somewhat. Harehunter said he couldn't think of a normal character, who was in the middle of being "bumbling" and being "Rambo". Yes, Xander sucked in romantic relationships, but that doesn't make him macho or bumbling. It makes him bad in relationships, like a lot of other people. Similarly, I dunno why you feel the need to judge Giles (or anybody for that matter) on the fact he only dated one person, and one snarky comment. Nobody was suggesting we find a perfect person, because they'd suck as a role model. On the other hand, you're saying somebody who takes bribes is a good role model (haven't seen the show, but going from what you're saying, sheesh), and finish up by saying that a secret agent who sometimes feels bad about murdering is another. ...I think I should stop procrastinating by posting here and get back to my essay. Much less bewildering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Reading only four posts in, I'd Rather not look at the four other pages. I'd like to take this and add my piece. What I said WAS rather stupid, and I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to the Spiderweb Software community for my insensitive post about diki. Gender is obviously a sensitive topic to some, and they would obviously not liked to be mocked. I knew that they were just joking, so why get mad at them? Again, I also put out my apology to anyone other than diki for my insensitivity. More people than admit have gender problems. Xx, Trenton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Harehunter The men would be taught to respect women and to take responsibility for their children and their wife. The women would be taught that they have the right to expect nothing less than that, should they get into a relationship that does not provide that, they don't have to stay in it; they can walk away from it, and if they need assistance for it, well that is what the family is for. But what about same-gender relationships? What about non-binary people who have no role under your "ideal" system? What about women who want to focus on their careers and men who want to stay at home? What about women who have no families, or have families who are abusive, or have families who are too far away or too poor or otherwise unable to provide adequate assistance? What about men who are abused by their wives? If a relationship ends for reasons other than abuse, how is custody of children provided? What if one partner is or becomes disabled and unable to fulfill the role you expect of them? What about single-parent families? What about polyamorous relationships? Because if the system isn't flexible enough to accommodate all these people and relationship types, then it's broken. It'll be an oppressive monster of a system that eats people and destroy relationships. Why would anyone want that? Dikiyoba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Originally Posted By: Harehunter The grandchildren would be taught to respect people and to take responsibility for their children and their partners. They would be taught that they have the right to expect nothing less than that, should they get into a relationship that does not provide that, they don't have to stay in it; they can walk away from it, and if they need assistance for it, well that is what the family is for. If you take the gender out it stands just fine. —Alorael, who doesn't expect a nice summary in a paragraph to cover all the edge cases and curveballs life can through. As a simple manifesto, it works. Be respectful, and demand to be respected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I don't have the answer for other peoples circumstances, only what I wish for my step children and grandchildren. I have a granddaughter who is involved in a same sex relationship. She is no less loved for it. I have one stepdaughter who operates her own accounting business from her home, and is quite successful at it. She is divorced because her husband made the decision to have an affair. She didn't have to live with that, so out he went. I have another stepdaughter who has had it rough; her husband died in a motorcycle crash. She has managed to raise two boys and two girls on her own since then, with the help of the rest of the family. One boy is working as a welder, the other has been in trouble, but shows promise of getting his head on straight, one daughter who is married, a teacher and a mother, and the youngest daughter is just graduating high school, but she definitely knows how to take of herself, and set goals that will meet that end. Three daughters live in California, a daughter and son live in Michigan, my wife and I live in Texas. Distance not prevent us from helping each other out. My wife has COPD, I have Parkinsons. The bond I share with my wife has never been stronger. I could go on, but I think this covers most of what you are questioning. I cannot dictate to anyone else how to raise their family, nor would I ever want to. I cannot wave a magic wand and prevent spousal abuse, but I would not shirk my duty as a juror in such a case to do what I could to keep one more woman safe from abuse. I have mentioned before that the women in this family do not see themselves as helpless and dependent no matter what. Their view is that their relationship with their spouses is a partnership, and if the man does not take that to heart, if he abuses her either physically or emotionally, then they can turn to their mother and their sisters, and of course their husbands, for support both moral and financial. Life isn't easy. Government cannot solve all problems. When all else is distilled away, a strong family unit will continue to survive and thrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Brocktree Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Originally Posted By: Harehunter I have mentioned before that the women in this family do not see themselves as helpless and dependent no matter what. Their view is that their relationship with their spouses is a partnership, Lies! Heresy! Any married woman who does not earn as much as her husband is *obviously* controlled by him financially. No woman seeks out a relationship where she is financially dependent on a man, it is forced on her by the 'Patriarchy' . Remember those black 'slaves'? Well, one could argue that they were in the position of power. It was they who generated the revenue for their white 'masters'. If they chose to leave the plantation, then the plantation owners would have been financially ruined. That's an awful amount of power those 'slaves' had right there, which they could have quite easily abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast keira Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but those 'slaves' had things like 'chains' and 'overseers' with 'whips' keeping them there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Prince of Kitties Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Just a second, I have to check on my cat. I'm afraid Brocktree's logic might have killed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Kelandon Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Originally Posted By: Sylae I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not I would venture to guess, based on that first paragraph, that "sarcastic" is a fair bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 This thread is in immediate danger of going the way of all the others. Since the Dikiyoba/Trenton thing has now been put to rest with an apology from Trenton, I'm going to close it. Nobody make any more threads on this topic for now. Please. And in future, it's probably best not to start new threads to have your say about other threads that have just been closed for turning into flame wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts