Why do you hate us so much Spiderweb?!

[Andariel]

Hi everyone!

 

Well, actually, the "us" in the title refers to PC users. It may sound a bit paranoid, but it's definitely what I feel.

 

Spiderweb, you're an awesome studio, with awesome games and an awesome spirit. But, with all due respect, you really need to know that your politics against PC users sucks. As a Microsoft user I feel more and more frustrated by your disrespectful treatement to the plateform that I'm using, and thus I don't feel respected as a customer.

 

Mac and Apple always come first, it has all your attention and all the appealing stuff. PC is simply neglected, as if PC users are unworthy and useless. Avernum EFTP is available for Macintosh users AT LEAST SIX MONTHS before PC, and still we're impatiently waiting every minute for it to come out. And guess what? It's the IPad version that comes next and then you just feel worthless!

 

But more importantly and even more dangerously, you feel like garbage when you see that the IPad version costs half the price of the PC version. Excuse me, but that's SCANDAlOUS!

Seriously, I've boycotted Avadon TBF for a long time because you've done that. Still, I've decided to buy it afterwards, cause I just can't boycott indie old school cRPGs when I'm throwing money for AAA ones. I sincerly hoped that I would not see that again for Avernum, but imagine my disappointement...

 

Studios like Basilik Games are huge Mac supporters, still, they treat all their constumers on the same level. All the versions are out in the same time with the same price and evreybody is happy. Well, I know, you aren't Basilik, but I love your games as much as theirs and I really want to support both of you.

 

I can understand that you cherish Mac, cause the IPad is more "bankable" than the PC or maybe cause Jeff Vogel is a Mac user I assume. But I just want to be treated like the others, recieving my game at the same time as the others and paying the same price as the others. Console players have to pay more than the PC because of the royalties, but there's absolutely no reason that I pay the double for the very same product available on Ipad, especially when that version came out way before mine.

 

Thanks and sorry if I sound fulminating.

 

 

[Lilith]

Welcome to how Mac users feel about basically every other game that gets released by any major company ever, pretty much.

 

Spiderweb Software has exactly three employees, of which exactly one is a programmer. How do you propose that he release his games at the same time for both Mac and Windows? Delay the Mac release until the Windows release is finished? That won't mean anyone gets their game any faster.

 

The reason the iPad version is cheaper is the nature of the market: if it costs more than $10 iPad customers won't buy it. Computer gamers are generally willing to pay more, so they get charged more: that's economics for you. If you want to talk about price discrimination, I live in Australia where new releases of major commercial video games can cost the equivalent of over 120 US dollars, so as far as I'm concerned either $10 or $20 is still a great bargain. But if you don't think the game's worth $20 to you, there's always the option of waiting for it to go on sale on Steam, which it probably will eventually.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Andariel: With all due respect, is this worth getting that worked up about? Your tone is pretty angry and a bit offensive, and I think most of us would prefer to keep the discussion civil.

 

The PC version coming out later is annoying, but it's not the end of the world, and like Lilith said, Mac users have to put up with that kind of bull much more often than PC users. At least AEftP will come out for PC at all, which is better than Mac users can say for the Mass Effect series, most of the Command and Conquer series, Bastion, and a host of other games. Also, the Mac version of the game costs just as much as the PC version.

 

And, to echo Lilith again, there's nothing Jeff Vogel has said or done that suggests he has "politics against PC users." This is a small indie studio, ports take time, and he works on a Mac, which means it's logical for him to put out Mac versions of games first.

[adc.]

I haven't read the whole of your posts yet, and you aren't the one who is just feeling that. Me too, I have been expecting AEFTP on April 1 regardless of April fools. But I don't feel the same way as you. I mean, who cares if Mac goes out first? There is a lot of games to play out there, Team fortress 2, Minecraft,(not trying to advertise games here) Demos of Geneforge and Avernum, look for interesting posts in Spidweb forums. There are lots of other ways. Everyone can be patient. Oh and it's gonna come out at Steam on April 11

==================

Originally Posted By: Andariel

I can understand that you cherish Mac, cause the IPad is more "bankable" than the PC

Yes and it does sound quite a bit offensive

==================

Some info:

Q: You didn't do the ports yourself?

 

A: No, they were ported by skilled third-party developers in close consultation with us. My increasingly old brain doesn't have the space to learn to develop for any new platforms. It doesn't even have space to hold everything I need to know now. The number of things I need to do for my job that I need to relearn from scratch every time I do them is already really high.

[BMA]

Andariel, I would like to share my experiences with you.

 

Being a Windows user myself, I can understand - I've experienced the feeling; nothing can describe the frustration I've felt by seeing the oh-so-awesome screenshots, trailers, hearing everyone praise the game, and jealously watching the mac users posting in the AEFTP section (while not being able to join in).

 

I put up a fuss, (though,I must say, mine wasn't as well worded as yours ) darkly hinting that the company was being partial to mac users and would risk losing its PC fan-base if it continued in this fashion. And I was wondering why Spiderweb didn't put more effort into ensuring that the release dates of all the platforms coincide.

 

That's when I heard that the company has only three people, with only one programmer(Jeff). I knew that SW was a small company, but -three employees ?- that was way too less than I had expected, and I didn't even believe it until I checked out the SW website which has info on all three of them. In fact, its amazing that such a small team has survived all these years making one game after the other, and each one better than the last (in graphics, storyline and overall enjoyability). And it explains the windows release date. Also, from what I hear, it isn't so much the actual porting that takes up time as the beta-testing to ensure that the PC version works to perfection without any errors.

 

And, however much I would like a quicker release, an error-ridden game is something I will never look at. If an error crops up when I'm playing a game, I just chuck it in the bin (uh, delete it) right away without a second thought.

[adc.]

We almost have the same experiences. Well almost. For me, waiting is not bothering me, but a little bit. Seeing those screenshots, the trailers, then discussions of glitches. I mean, there are a lot of games out there while waiting, or hang out here, in the forums. But I do feel a tiny quark-sized bit jealous....

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: watchNighter the mentleGen

Some info:
Q: You didn't do the ports yourself?

A: No, they were ported by skilled third-party developers in close consultation with us. My increasingly old brain doesn't have the space to learn to develop for any new platforms. It doesn't even have space to hold everything I need to know now. The number of things I need to do for my job that I need to relearn from scratch every time I do them is already really high.

FYI, that statement was written concerning the new Android and Linux ports, not iPad or Windows ports, which continue to be done by Spiderweb.


As for the Mac version coming first, followed by the iPad, Jeff has explained that before. He can only write one version at a time, being a single person. He prefers working on Mac, and that's what he's always done first, so he sticks with it. It is then easier to port from Mac to iOS than it is to Windows, so he gets that one done first. He doesn't delay and do a simultaneous release because, well, he has to make a living. He wants his new games out as soon as they're ready.

[adc.]

Hmmm... Just wondering, what is FYI?

============

Oh right, I was looking for that "prefer" word. Forgot to mention that...

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: watchNighter the mentleGen

Hmmm... Just wondering, what is FYI?

For Your Information.

[Actaeon]

I spent my childhood being taunted by Windows users with broad game compatibility. My mother's a graphic designer, and all my computer were hand me down Macs. I had Oregon Trail and Kidpix to play with, but that's about it. It's part of what made this place so darn inviting.

 

That trend has somewhat turned itself around. Sure, Direct2Drive merged with Gamefly and stopped carrying mac games (including the one Command and Conquer they DO carry for us). Skyrim certainly won't run for me. Oh, and we have the duel boot option.

 

On the other hand, many mac users have gained a superiority complex about their machines. In the end, it's a personal choice that doesn't have anything to do with how valuable you are as a person. As for the developers... I suppose Jeff could wait until all versions were finished to release, but this method keeps his income steady. Makes sense to me.

 

Finally, about the price for iPad... Don't mistake all mac users for Apple fanatics. I don't own an iPad and don't intend to. Ever since Apple dropped the "Computer" from their name, they seem to have favored their mobile devices and neglected their traditional lineup (except to incorporate elements of the former). Many games that used to cost me $20-30 on a Mac are $5 on iOS. Am I willing to spend several hundred dollars on a new device to get those deals? No.

 

Keep an eye out on Steam. There are actually more Windows games than Mac on there, and every so often they have a sale. Finally, imagine how you'd feel if you were running Linux.

 

Edit: Neb told me yesterday that there's no excuse not to observe the formalities/pleasantries. So welcome to Spiderweb, Andariel, and kindly leave your sanity at the door. Perhaps your anger, too.

[Alorael at Large]

Apple's neglected their traditional lineup? They've had regular upgrades to non-iPod/iPhone/iPads too, and they're not responsible for the app pricing. I think Lilith got it right: the mobile app market demands lower prices. Serious gamers use consoles and PCs, and they're willing to pay more, keeping the price higher.

 

Back to the original post, Jeff's experimenting with prices and platforms. Before Avadon, for fifteen years Jeff released a game for Mac, then Windows, at the same price; the order simply because Jeff uses a Mac and is more familiar with them. The comparison with Basilisk Games is interesting, because while it's another very small company (one full-time programmer/designer/writer), their release cycle is much, much longer. I'm not sure how it's enough to support the company, actually. And it's worth noting that Spiderweb's Mac and Windows prices are equal, and Basilisk's Mac and Windows prices are equal. It's only when Basilisk adds iPads to the mix that you can compare apples to apples.

 

—Alorael, whose conclusion is, like many others, that now you know how Mac users feel all the time. Simultaneous releases are rare. Many games aren't released on Mac at all. Mac users cope; in this case, Windows users can also cope.

[Actaeon]

Originally Posted By: heliotypes of heliotropes

It's only when Basilisk adds iPads to the mix that you can compare apples to apples.

See, that's the way a pun ought to be! As for the traditional lineup comment... I cannot help but feel that it's a side project for them. OSX is beginning to look more and more like iOS, and I can't blame 'em. Most of their sales aren't coming from desktops or laptops.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

As for the traditional lineup comment... I cannot help but feel that it's a side project for them. OSX is beginning to look more and more like iOS, and I can't blame 'em. Most of their sales aren't coming from desktops or laptops.

I certainly believe they are working to give both devices similar interfaces, but Macs aren't going to disappear anytime soon.

[keira]

Hey it could be worse, you could be using Linux and have only experienced two SW games in their native form. And, you still have to wait for the Windows release so you can Wine it.

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: watchNighter the mentleGen

Hmmm... Just wondering, what is FYI?
============

A quick recap:
FYI = For your information
FTW = For the win
FYT = Fixed your typ0
IIRC = If I remember correctly
IMO = In my opinion
IMHO = In my humble opinion
AFAIK = As far as I know
i.e. = Latin meaning "meaning" (I just remember it as "in expansion")
e.g. = Latin meaning "as an example" or "here are some examples"
feel free to add anything but lol and z/omg

[Callie]

I don't think OS X really looks all that much like iOS. Sure, Lion has it's oddly-named launchpad and mission control features, but I rarely use those. They're just two extra icons in the dock.

[A less presumptuous name.]

I really don't mind most of the new features in Lion. I don't use launchpad at all; Quicksilver is far superior. I use mission control as spaces with a new look. What I don't like, though, are the new restrictions and limits that Apple is putting on. Making the ~/library hidden by default? And rumor is that Apple will make it nearly impossible to use anything but the App Store to install software with 10.8. Sometimes I wish I could install 10.6 on this machine.

[Actaeon]

You can't run Snow Leopard?

 

(And I've heard those rumors, too. In my opinion, a platform which doesn't allow you to freely install a third party application is not a fully functioning computer.)

[Randomizer]

Jeff uses C++ for writing his games and has to compile the different versions with libraries for each operating systems. Mostly getting the different graphics systems of DirectX and OpenGL to work properly.

 

Basilisk Games uses BlitzMax which allows for rapid compiling of a game into Windows, Mac, and Linux but doesn't allow playing on iPads. Even then it's a few weeks between the release on all three platforms starting with Windows.

 

Basilisk Games won't make an iPad version for any of the Eschalon series because it will involve completely rewriting the source code. Also as a mostly one man operation it's taking a lot longer between games because of major changes in the game engine to add new features, change to high definition monitors aspect ratio, and make it work faster on older computers.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

You can't run Snow Leopard?

Amongst other things, Macbook Pros after mid 2011 can only run 10.7+ Also, since I've had my hard drive replaced, I no longer have access to the Apple Hardware Test. The laptops no longer come with any external boot ware, it's all kept on a hidden partition. When they reformat or replace a drive, the do an abridged install, omitting the AHWT from the recovery drive. And only the Airs can use the internet HWT, leaving me in a peck of trouble.

/Rant

[Lauren CW]

Do try to keep in mind that Spiderweb Software is not Bioware or Blizzard or Obsidian or some such.

 

It's made of 3 PEOPLE. Not robots, people.

 

I am also waiting for the windows version. But instead of being angry that it is not out already, I am ecstatic that he is 1.) Remaking Avernum, and 2.) That it is most likely only days away!

 

Yes, it sucks that mac users get to have so much fun exploring a game as it first comes out and we don't.

 

But Mac users have to have SOME fun right?

 

ALSO, it means that we have a well formed strategy central to refer to before even starting the game >

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Master1

And rumor is that Apple will make it nearly impossible to use anything but the App Store to install software with 10.8. Sometimes I wish I could install 10.6 on this machine.

This setting does exist in Mountain Lion security settings. (I'm running the developer preview on my MacBook Pro) There are three options you can choose:

As you can see, it is completely optional. I would point out that Windows 8 has a similar setting.

[The Ratt]

I suppose that having that option is nice for the technically impaired, they no longer need to worry about getting viruses/malware, but just the fact that they are taking that step suggests that they could phase that into being the default and eventually only option, similar to the migration from PPC to Intel or the constant development of technology.

[Actaeon]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The iTunes store has been on top for years, and Apple still allows relatively seamless purchasing from Amazon's mp3 store. As long as their market share trails Microsoft, they'll try to avoid trashing their counterculture image.

 

That's not to say they won't make it terrifically difficult without violating their terms.

[keira]

Ugh. Call me elitist, but maybe instead of catering to the technologically-moronic masses, these companies should instead work on educating said masses to be less moronic (or something besides watering down their product). I mean, OSes are getting so "user-friendly" that anytime you want to do anything besides the default, "intelligent" option, you practically have to program it yourself. I mean yes, sometimes a giant mass of options to configure can be a pain, but at least you could actually use it.

 

Yes, there are good cases where having a central authority to download stuff is good (apt-get, anybody?), but when you make that authority the only option, as Win8 and OSX are heading towards (yeah there's an option, but if you think that'll be around for very long...), you are opening yourself up for a lot of trouble. Not only does anyone wanting to install something become a slave to the whims of the company (just watch M$ decide not to approve Firefox or Chrome for their app store, and look at the [censored] the iPhone app store is), what happens when someone finds a security vulnerability (as in with PSN).

 

The trend of "user-friendliness" is killing the operating system as we know it. You know, I run XP on my home box and I am fine with it. But every time I want to do something in the "friendlier" Vista and 7 (and probably 8 if I ever get stuck near that mess), it's a huge effort that takes at least twice as long as it did in XP.

 

For all my server machines, I use debian. And to this day I have never said to myself, "this is retarded and a pain in the ass". I used to use Ubuntu for my webradio stuff (desktop), but I made the mistake of upgrading to 11.10. Now that partition sits there collecting dust. Why? Because they tried to make it more "user-friendly" and now everyone hates it.

 

Hopefully the "make everything like my smartphone!" trend is just a phase, because it's really alarming to someone who plans on making a living working with this crap.

[Actaeon]

Do we have a "future of computing" thread somewhere? If not, I think we need one. The advent of cloud computing, mobile device dominance, and other more minor paradigm shifts are all worthy topics of discussion.

[Alorael at Large]

The constant development of technology, abandonment of old hardware and standards and operating systems for new ones, isn't just an irritation for the customer. I'll admit that Apple seems much more willing to jettison the past than I'd prefer, given how much old software I happily use, but at least there's a justification. Imposed rules? Apple does some of that, but they haven't gotten quite so draconian yet. And there's good as well as bad from the interface improvements learned from mobile. When all computer screens become touch screens, and I don't think it'll take all that long, it won't revolutionize computing, but it'll be convenient for a lot of uses and a lot of people.

 

And trashing their image? They'd start hemorrhaging customers at an alarming rate if they blocked all unauthorized third party applications. How much free software ends up in the App Store? How many minor little things from third parties? I don't think Apple's megalomania is nearly severe enough to try something like that. (They do it with the mobile devices because they set it up like that from the get-go. There aren't other central sources, so everything goes through Apple. The rest of computing ecology is already too well-developed for it.)

 

—Alorael, who thinks the automatic hiding of the Library is annoying. The fact that Spotlight now doesn't search through the Library by default (and it's not at all obvious how to make it do so) is worse. Everything is still usable, just not ideally set up by default. Also, thanks for pointing out Quicksilver. It looks like a great piece of software.

[dave s]

I understand how you feel. I probably won't purchase Avernum. When you make me wait for a PC port, charge a lot more than an ipad version, and are just rehashing a game that was itself a rehash?

 

Meh.

 

I bought Avadon when it came out for PC, and the iPad price didn't bother me because it was a while later. But to release the cheaper version BEFORE the more expensive PC version?

 

Sorry Jeff, you've lost yourself a customer.

[Soul of Wit]

Still using Snow Leopard here. So far, I have no reason to update. When I do, I already have a checklist of things to do. Making the Library folders transparent is #1 on the list. Thankfully, you always have that handy *nix shell under the GUI veneer.

 

There is zero reason to think that a general OS would suddenly ban outside access to software. Offering an option for secure downloading is fine. That's as far as it will go.

 

I also see no reason why desktop computers would ever have touch screens. Is there a valid reason for it in a desktop configuration? A whiteboard-like touch configuration is fairly plausible, but sitting at a desk would require some sort of tilted screen occupying the same real estate as the keyboard. At that point, why bother?

[keira]

Yeah, shame on you Jeff for not having superpowers and releasing everything at the same time. And shame on you for selling your iPad versions for a price that they could sell for in a .99 cent market. And super shame for upgrading your great games to a modern ui and making them playable on new machines.

 

I don't know how you sleep at night.

[Soul of Wit]

Originally Posted By: dave s

... I bought Avadon when it came out for PC, and the iPad price didn't bother me because it was a while later. But to release the cheaper version BEFORE the more expensive PC version? ...

Not getting the logic here at all. Often, when I buy the Mac port of a Windows game that has been out for a while, the Windows version will be significantly cheaper. That's not even allowing for the vastly differing market between computer games and tablet games.

[Dikiyoba]

A couple of things.

 

1. There's a good chance the Windows version will be released on April 11 or sooner. That's only about a week later than the iPad version. Even if the release is later than the 11th, it's clear that Jeff was working on both ports at the same time and the iPad one just got done a bit sooner. It's not like he completely ignored the Windows port in order to do the iPad port.

 

2. Don't forget about the discount that comes with the Windows (pand Mac) versions but that iPad users can't get.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Sylae

I don't know how you sleep at night.

It's gotten easier since his kids have grown up and can make it through the nights without having to be fed and changed.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Dave S: Yeah, pretty much what Soul of Wit and Sylae said. I don't want to turn this into a broader discussion of privilege (please, for the love of God, don't let this turn into a broader discussion of privilege), but maybe you should be satisfied with getting 95% of games sooner and cheaper as a Windows user? Maybe stop telling Mac users to suck it up* when we get games late, or not at all, then treating it as an enormous personal affront when the same happens to you in one case out of dozens, with a game that is abnormally cheap regardless of system anyway?

 

*I don't know if you, personally, do this; at this point in the post, I'm just talking about spoiled Windows users in general.

[The Ratt]

I'm not trying to offend, I'm genuinely curious, why are you spending time on the forums if you aren't buying Jeff's games?

[Goldengirl]

Originally Posted By: The Ratt

I'm not trying to offend, I'm genuinely curious, why are you spending time on the forums if you aren't buying Jeff's games?

I had spent quite a few years on the boards before I bought a Spiderweb game. I simply played (and loved) the demos I had played. I came on between Geneforge 2 being released and the release of Avernum 4, and I didn't purchase anything until Geneforge 4. Plus, the boards are an attraction in and of themselves.

I'll echo what other members have said. Windows users are generally more privileged than Mac users on when it comes to PC gaming, especially since a lot of games just aren't available for Mac. Moreover, as a Windows user, I know that we have the better system anyway, so them getting Spiderweb games faster is a consolation I'm willing to allow. Especially on a remake of a remake.

[Callie]

Originally Posted By: Sylae

Yes, there are good cases where having a central authority to download stuff is good (apt-get, anybody?), but when you make that authority the only option, as Win8 and OSX are heading towards

What exactly is Windows heading to anyway? The glimpses of Windows 8 I've seen make it look more like a puzzle game than a desktop.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Excalibur

What exactly is Windows heading to anyway? The glimpses of Windows 8 I've seen make it look more like a puzzle game than a desktop.

i'm using windows 8 to type this right now. metro is probably more than fine for tablets but it is just not a good user interface for a desktop computer. fortunately you can click out of it and get back to a win-7-style desktop, at which point your only problem is that you really wish you had an actual Start menu instead of this Metro thing

[Callie]

Getting rid of the start menu sounds like a terrible idea. That's been one of the most prominent features of the Windows operating system for as long as I remember. The whole set-up is certainly going to alienate some users, so I'd hate to be the one working in their marketing department!

[keira]

Stardock supposedly already has a utility out to bring back the Start Menu.

[BMA]

On a lighter note,

 

Originally Posted By: Jeff Vogel (Scorched Earth party)

Q: What is your stand on the Mac/PC thing?

 

A: I use Macs. But it is more important that the fans of the two platforms must unite, settle our differences, and go beat the living crap out of those weenie Amiga people.

[Randomizer]

An expert's views on those other systems.

[Death Knight]

I can understand the aggravation but to be honest, im more glad that jeff is here and making the great games that he is. I'd rather he takes longer for windows and gets the job done right, then not get it done at all.

[Skwish-E]

Jeff is doing his part to help me be virtuous.

Patience is a virtue.

 

"I hate waiting." -- Inigo Montoya

[Randomizer]

Jeff finally has a legitimate excuse.

 

Quote:

The reason the Windows game is coming out so late is because we have to choose to release date in consultation with the 3rd parties that will be distributing it. I wish it was out now, but next week is hopefully tolerable. Sorry for the wait!

 

- Jeff Vogel

 

Blame it on somebody else.

[Andariel]

Originally Posted By: Master1

As for the Mac version coming first, followed by the iPad, Jeff has explained that before. He can only write one version at a time, being a single person. He prefers working on Mac, and that's what he's always done first, so he sticks with it. It is then easier to port from Mac to iOS than it is to Windows, so he gets that one done first. He doesn't delay and do a simultaneous release because, well, he has to make a living. He wants his new games out as soon as they're ready.

I have to say, you got a point here. And actually, when you put it that way, it's quite understandable.

Sorry if I sounded like I'm bitching, but it was out of passion, because I really like Spiderweb games and I was bothered by apparences without knowing the motives.

Anyway, Avernum'll be out tomorrow, and somehow I know that it was worth the wait after all.

[BMA]

Yesss! We play Aeftp tomorrow!

[Actaeon]

Your wait is over. Stop complaining and go download it!

[trisenk]

I have a question concerning Mac/PC versions - do gameplay/quest/etc bugs get fixed on both platforms? For example, the support page for Avandon: The Black Fortress there's version 1.0.4 for Mac with some gameplay fixes from February 2012, but nothing for PC.

[Lilith]

Version numbers aren't standardised across the Mac and Windows versions. In general, whenever a new version is released for either platform it'll include all current bug fixes for both platforms up to that point.