New here, which to play first?

[DogTheNine]

Greetings!

I recently stumbled upon Avadon the black fortress. I couldn't believe someone actually created a "modern" old-school type RGP game. At least one that didn't look like it was from 1985 lol.

Needless to say my eyes grew large!

 

I quickly bought Avadon, then I found Eschalon and have actually been playing those 2.

 

When I bought Avadon, I didn't realize that spiderweb made other similar games. I only found this site like 2 days ago through the eschalon forums (I purchased all 3 games through steam).

 

Upon seeing all of the great spiderweb games I immediately began to drool.

 

I have not yet bought the other games because I have so many on my plate at the moment, but I wanted to know from those that have played, which series should I start first?

 

Avadon: The Black Fortress, GeneForge 1, Avernum 1 or Nethergate

 

I was thinking of playing Avadon since I already have it, then trying Nethergate after that since it is the only 1 in the series. BUT, it can sometimes take me a bit to get warmed up to this older style of gameplay, so I wanted to ask those of you who have played them all, WHICH ONE WILL GET ME HOOKED ON THESE? Because I really would like to be able and sink my teeth into them

 

As for the type of game I go for, I tend to prefer a bit more action. I'm walking through eschalon 2 and there's like almost completely empty maps. Boring. I'm used to games like Baldur's Gate 2, Might and Magic 6 and Pools of Radiance. I like a good mix of action and story, but if I had to lean 1 way, it would be action. Well, I like story, just not pages of dialogue

 

Thanks in advance!

 

PS, what is this AimHack I keep seeing on here? I skimmed through 1 post and it looked interesting.

[keira]

Avernum is getting entirely remade to use the modern Avadon-esque engine, the first installment should be out early next year. I'd recommend trying out some demos and seeing what you like, though.

 

AIMhack is a roleplaying variant played over the AOL Instant Messenger. It's basically Dungeons and Dragons, except very, very simplified. I'd recommend browsing through the threads on it and spectating a session, if you're interested.

[BJ Back From the Beyond]

One of the best things about Spiderweb is that every one of their games has a demo, and they're all huge. If you're not sure about a game, get the demo and play it through. They'll give you a good idea of what the game will be like.

 

Edit: Oh, and welcome to Spiderweb. Please leave your sanity at the door. We all did.

[Jerakeen]

Nethergate uses an older engine and graphics, but it's widely considered to have the best story of all Spiderweb games.

 

As for action, there are quite a few things to kill in all of the games. And Jeff is pretty good about providing shortcuts through areas you've already cleared.

 

Really, there's no reason not to start with Avadon. It's a really good game, if a little hand-holdy compared to the rest.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: B.J.Earles

every one of their games has a demo, and they're all huge.

Except for the Avadon demo, unfortunately. But the OP already bought it, so that doesn't matter in this case.

Dikiyoba recommends starting with Avadon, then coming back to try out the demos of the older series (or newer series, in the case of Avernum: Escape from the Pit). Avadon's skill system seems to be what future games will follow, while some of the older games have clunky and irritating interfaces.

[DogTheNine]

well actually i plan on buying all of them at some point, so I don't really need the demo's I guess I'll stick with avadon in-between playing Eschalon

Thanks

[Actaeon]

I'm a fan of Geneforge. Tyranicus will get around to posting the Nethergate picture soon, I imagine. The company was founded on Exile and its remake, Avernum. Avernum itself is being remade, and will be coming out for Macintosh this month.

 

They all have their advantages. We all have our favorites. Hopefully, you will, as you said, get around to playing them all.

[nikki.]

[Goldengirl]

Aside from the normal trumpeting of "Try the demos!" I'll add some of my own opinion.

 

Since you already have Avadon, you may as well play it. It's a fun game, and on the shorter side for Spiderweb Software.

 

Beyond that, when you eventually get to Nethergate, be sure to get Nethergate: Resurrection. It's a newer engine, with a bit more content.

 

As for Avernum, I'll advise waiting for a bit until the first game is redone with the new engine and new content. That's set to happen this month, for the Mac, and sometime in the Spring, for PC.

 

I cannot advocate Geneforge highly enough.

 

Geneforge is about a society of people called the Shapers, who can magically create life, and who demands full obedience from it. The life the create ranges from biological guns to fire-breathing monsters, from brains in a jar to a slave species. The series explores the ramifications of self-Shaping, as well as slave rebellion.

 

Avernum is about a society of exiles, banished by portal into a series of giant underground caverns. By magic and sheer effort, they create a working nation, despite attacks from hostile races, monsters, and environments. The series explores this society and helps it to survive, and even thrive, against all odds.

 

Nethergate is about Celtic society under Roman occupation during the time of Boudica's Rebellion. Though the Iceni and their revolt against the Romans are separated from the events of the game, their influence is still felt heavily. Faeries and an interesting style of magic are integral to the plot. In this series, you can start either as a band of Roman soldiers, or a band of Celtic warriors.

[Triumph]

Nethergate: Resurrection is my favorite Spiderweb game. The first Geneforge game is also an outstanding place begin.

[Randomizer]

The Geneforge series is on sale at Steam, but only the Windows version.

 

Do download demos since players here are split on their preferred series.

[Alorael at Large]

If you own Avadon, why not play that first? If you plan on owning them all, order isn't so terribly important.

 

Nethergate is a perennial favorite, and as you say it's also stand-alone. Get it a try. If you like the engine, you can move on to the Avernum trilogy.

 

Or try the Geneforge games. Despite the incremental improvements to the engine over the course of the series, G1 is a consistent contender for best in series on the strength of its story, so you get to start strong.

 

Although there are series, the games stand on their own well enough that you can skip around if you wish. I think Avernum's a little bit more amenable to it than Geneforge, but you won't get lost.

 

—Alorael, who will give you another dimension for judgment. Avernum is the best series for being a hero and fighting evil. Geneforge buries you in moral nuances, and there's not always a good side to pick or an evil to fight. Avadon has corruption as a central theme. Nethergate tends towards heroic goodness, but it emphasizes irreconcilable cultural conflicts.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: the brute / Brute heart of a

'Use your shield, laddy!!'

[DogTheNine]

Originally Posted By: Randomizer

The Geneforge series is on sale at Steam, but only the Windows version.

Do download demos since players here are split on their preferred series.

Yeah, I almost grabbed it, but steam has a contest going on where you can win your top 10 wishlisted games, and I needed to fill my list up so I had to put all 5 geneforge games in my list lol. So I can't buy geneforge yet until I win it from steam! But as soon as their little contest is over I plan on buying the series.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

Originally Posted By: the brute / Brute heart of a

'Use your shield, laddy!!'

It's called Hero of Old. Real Celtic warriors don't need to worry about Romans and their puny swords.

[Actaeon]

I still think we should have a stickied version of this thread.

[Student of Trinity]

Doh. Why didn't I think of that?

 

We are now sticking.

[Erebus the Black]

About empty voids:

Avernum(A) or Exile(E) 1-3 & both Nethergates have commonly respawning creeps making no void empty.

A4-5 have no respawning creeps but have a set of teleporters which allow you to bypass any previously emptied voids (A5 also have a few scripted scenes where if you flee the combat in the middle and return, all monsters will reappear along with their goodies).

A6 has extremely slowly respawning creeps.

So none of these games are as bad as return to krondor's opening quest where you have to walk half the world and back with the backtrack being completely devoid of encounters.

[ex post slarto]

The original poster isn't talking about respawning creeps. The Eschalon games literally have entire maps that are very sparsely populated with anything except for different pieces of terrain, even the first time you are there.

[Randomizer]

Eschalon: Book 2 has a section in Norland that has no encounters at all except for the chance of getting caught in a storm and taking cold damage. It's a difference in how the game gets designed where there are no random monster encounters and non-essential monsters are inserted near the end if Basilisk Wrangler has time to do it.

 

I did some beta testing of it and in early versions there were even fewer monsters. One of our jobs was to suggest locations to add monsters to fill in the game.

[ex post slarto]

I have to say, I don't understand how Basilisk Wrangler thinks people enjoy walking at a slow walking speed through long areas of empty terrain. At least in latter-day Spiderweb games, you can click once and wait for your party to arrive. Basilisk has a slower walking speed and you have to hold down the mouse/keyboard to move...

[DogTheNine]

my biggest gripe to that aspect isn't so much walking from one side of the map to the other without fighting anything, but it's when I have to uncover the entire map at that slow speed. And you "have" to because you're an "adventurer" lol

[Randomizer]

It's on the wish list as a major thing players want fixed. It's slightly easier with a track pad to go into walk mode and then just adjust direction with a finger. It's mind numbingly boring to cross 3 or 4 zones with nothing to do but walk.

[DogTheNine]

I just bought the Geneforge series on Steam and started playing 1. Ouch! That was more old school than I realized lol

It will take some getting used to. That old school inventory and teeny world map. But it looks like it could be interesting. I never had the chance to play games like these back in the day. So this should be a good experience for me.

Does there happen to be any character creation guide for Geneforge 1? I found a FAQ/Walkthrough, but it didn't really say what a good way to build a character was. I basically don't want to suck and die a lot and end up getting discouraged with the game. But there were just so many things to choose from at creation, I wanted them all!

[voyager in night]

I just did this within the last couple weeks --

 

yeah, it's a shock at first, but the game is worth it!

 

I found the pacing was good, I would explore to my limits, and when I was getting burned out I would always come across something interesting enough to engage me again

 

The map is bigger than it seems, I thought - always an alternate path, and the individual areas 'felt' right

 

I'll leave character creation to someone with more experience, Ive only played through once, as a Shaper - it was a blast, totally different combat experience for me having diposable minions

 

EDIT: the only issue I still had with the 'interface' (engine) at the end of the game was the path-finding:

if I let my creations clump up, they would have trouble moving, and several times I had issues because I had to move them in a specific order to get them unstuck, causing me to effectively lose valuable turns; also, sometimes a creation/ my char would inexplicably take the long way around and get where I wanted them, but with 1 or 2 less AP than they should have had. Fairly minor problem, but if you have a major fight in close quarters try to position your team well before engaging!

[Alorael at Large]

A1-3 don't actually have respawning except for outdoor wandering encounters.

 

For information on builds and tactics, head to the Geneforge forums. For G1, the standard and easy strategy is probably to make a shaper, invest heavily in intelligence and either fire or magic creations, and storm all opposition with your massive party. Add Endurance for survival when necessary and boost magic to taste so your main character isn't entirely useless.

 

—Alorael, who will also point out that most Spiderweb games don't have truly vast spaces to go through. Geneforge breaks the game into zones, and you can usually skip to any zone you want when you're between them. Avadon separates its zones a little more, but you still only have to trek across two at worst. Avernum 1-3 have large spaces to walk through, but few are empty. Even if you don't actually want to visit all the cities, hamlets, and hermits in between point A and point B it feels okay to travel through stuff. And travel's not too bad. A4-6 give you teleporters.

[Trenton.]

So does avernum 3! Semi I mean. If you count coming from Ernest's place to one of the five major towns teleportation

[Spddin Ignis]

Go Geneforge... so good

[Tirien]

As much as I love the original Avernum trilogy, I must say that Geneforge is a amazing series. I've never played any other game similar to it, and despite the first few of the series being a bit clunky at times, the sheer replayability, multiple endings, and the amazing atmosphere of the first are more than worth the occasional frustrating moments of the series.

[Actaeon]

Now that we're addressing future comers and not just this one, already sold poster...

 

Most of us are here because Jeff is a great storyteller above all else. The Geneforge series epitomizes that. The whole setting is thought provoking and addictive. It's why we still dream of "Blades of Geneforge", even though it wouldn't be very lucrative, and why I hold out hope for a Geneforge AIMhack.

[AethirWeb]

Avadon was closed world, but you'll COMPLETELY love the GeneForge and Avenum series i will guarantee. If i'm wrong, take my life in Avadon and scorch me with a Cold Lance.

 

GeneForge is a mixture of Sci-Fi and Medieval themes. You are a shaper, a Mage with the power to create life. Your secrets have been kept from outsiders who would use this power against you. But you must make the choice, will you protect your secrets, or will you use them to topple the shaper faction? In this game you can use stealth, diplomancy and other factors not just hack and slash like Avadon (Which was pretty much all it was, Spider web games are suppose to be Diplomatic and not just hack and slash so i'm disappointed in that).

 

Avernum is the remake of the first game Spiderweb made. Similar to GeneForge, it is a different game style where you can traverse the subterranian world of Avernum, a pit for criminals, the disliked, the rebels, and people who just don't fit in. As a citizen of Avernum (Or a member of the overworld empire in the fifth game) you must decide what the gate of Avernum will be. Unlike Geneforge you can create four different characters in party. This game would like medieval Fallout in a way, but mixed in with some dungeon crawling-like elements. A more different battle system but with the same aspects as geneforge it's another strategical action packed game.

[MUMTAZ CLOSED-FIST]

dude so like you played eschalon? i never even heard of it. i only seen it now on youtube for 1 minute and from what i understand? the action is veeery slow. the character moves like.. 2 centimeters per hour.. and combat = st00pid.. it's one of those games for when you're half awake at 3 AM and you're in a state of mind between dream and reality.. maybe then you could play eschalon..

 

and yes Avadon is kind of nice - i tried to play as much as possible at torment difficulty but i had to restart the game because i needed to set up my party correctly for maximum effectiveness. also you got to save up on blessing cristals and frenzy potions as much as you can because they're rare to come by. and even so with all the stupid tactics and crap that i could think of, i still had to turn down difficulty a couple times because it was plain ridiculous.. i'm talking about the big battles - when you fight that mind controling drake who multiplies himself or Zetharine the dragon. i like tough games but only when i have a chance

 

and geneforge games? last time i played one it was in 2004 and i still remember all the pointless battles i had to go thru. dude? i think the game which i liked the best from here was exile 3 - it's like avernum 3? except that you had a huge variety of spells. and some of them were very useful.

 

and aimhack = st00pid! i don't understand what it was supposed to be? but i think it's even more stupid than the guy who made it.. i mean? you know.. an AIMHACK is supposed to be some cheat which AIMS at enemies or something.. but from curiosity i looked at the thread for it. and i read something about aaa?.. i don't know.. something about.. character conversation.. or anyway. what a crap!

[keira]

I have a great idea, instead of calling everything "st00pid" why don't you try being a decent human being

 

This being said, as this topic is stickied and will be viewable for all eternity, the new Avernum is pretty sweet, at least so far. My PowerBook G4 runs pretty laggy with it, though...but it'll hold me over until the Windows version comes out.

[Trenton.]

Your st00pid if you spell it with two 00's.

 

Besides, AIMHACK roxors your boxors.

[Alorael at Large]

No need to respond to the banned troll.

 

—Alorael, who actually thinks this thread should be unstickied. Surely Spiderweb can collectively do better in game recommendations. Besides, those recommendations will change with things like, oh, new game releases.

[Dikiyoba]

Seconded and unstuck.

 

Edit: Also, the correct term for a "mod-like scolder" is a mini-mod. But no one likes a mini-mod, so just... be careful.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Actaeon]

Originally Posted By: Signaling Pathways into Darkness

No need to respond to the banned troll.

—Alorael, who actually thinks this thread should be unstickied. Surely Spiderweb can collectively do better in game recommendations. Besides, those recommendations will change with things like, oh, new game releases.

But as no entirely new games will be out for some time, perhaps something better formatted and more tightly controlled might be viable?

[The Ratt]

Isn't Avadon 2 supposed to come out in a year or so?

[Actaeon]

I feel like a year or so might be covered in "some time". It just might be nice for there to be something waiting when Avernum comes out on Steam and Windows and the boards are flooded with new blood. (... A creepy combination of idioms, I'll admit.)

[Death Knight]

Geneforge is a fun game depending on how you like to play. It can be extremely frustrating if you play a certain way. I would recommend either avadon or one of the later geneforges 4 or 5. The only real problem i found with geneforge was that solo characters are put at an extreme disadvantage compared to creation based characters like shapers and such. I found that while agents and serviles are more fun to play solo, they really get nixed as having to be played in a set way. Otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot.