Discussion for who the Main Character is.[G5]

[kuo]

Who do you think the player of Geneforge 5 is?

 

Clues given:

 

Modified Extensively

Taken for examination

 

I would be suggesting that the main character of Geneforge 4 and 5 are the same, assuming that the main character of Geneforge 4 was Pro-Shaper, and "killed" the Unbound...but then that would mean that the player used the Geneforge twice, and that is probably a no-no.

[A less presumptuous name.]

My suggestion is the search feature. This has been discussed exhaustively, and there are a few strong possibilities, the most notable of which are Monarch and the G2 PC.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

does jeff say anything about it?

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Not as far as I know.

 

Quote:

assuming that the main character of Geneforge 4 was Pro-Shaper, and "killed" the Unbound

 

We know it didn't happen this way, though. The rebel ending is clearly much closer to canon: Greta and Akhari Blaze survive, Miranda dies, Alwan gets mortally wounded and left for dead, and the drakons decant the Unbound successfully and release them on the Shaper lands. If the G4 PC had been pro-Shaper, there wouldn't have been a G5.

 

There have been several discussions on this subject, and one seems to crop up a couple times a year. The main candidates are the G2, G3, or G4 PC, and Shaper Monarch. It's also possible that a character could be both the G2/3 PC and Shaper Monarch. I favor the G3 PC by way of Monarch, myself: the G4 PC just doesn't work, chronologically, and the G2 PC is a possibility, but leaves hanging the question of what the character was doing for the past ~20 years.

[kuo]

And I played G2 canister free...as well as Geneforge-free...

Monarch seems like a good guess, but I killed him in G4. =D

Or maybe the G5 PC could be Master Jared.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Jared seems unlikely for the same chronological reasons that the G4 PC seems likely.

[Dantius]

I could have sworn this discusion was posted in the regular Geneforge forums not too long ago. Letme check...

 

Yeah, it totally was. Here's what I said:

 

Originally Posted By: Dantius

Click to reveal..

It mainly stems from text in the game scripts that doesn't appear in the game itself about how the PC was found wandering around in the ruins near Drypeak, where G2 took place. Obviously, this person was clearly powerful enough to interest Rawal enough to have him capture, subdue, and transport said person to the Whitespires.

 

Arguments against the PC being from G3 or G4 are much stronger- both Alwan and Greta removed ANY mention of the G3 PC from their journals, strongly indicating that said person was an embarrassment to both sides- so either a Trakovite or somebody who opted for the KILL EVERYTHING EVER solution, like Monarch. Plus, G3 canonically ended in favor of the rebels, so clearly said PC was pretty hopped-up on canisters like Monarch was, and in G5 IIRC Litalia states that she was to her knowledge the only person who managed to reverse the effects of the canisters, and she would DEFINITELY know if the G3 PC was able to do so. So the only remaining option is that the G3 PC went stir-crazy and became Monarch, since it fits all available evidence.

 

Now, Rawal is crazy and power-hungry, but he's not stupid. He knows damn well that even the combined resources of the most powerful Shaper and Rebel generals were only able to fight Monarch to a standstill, so he'd be incredibly foolish to try and recruit him, since there's no guarantee Rawal would be strong enough to contain him without relying on the control tool- and he'd have to know that Monarch was a intelligent enough researcher that's he be able to remove the tool at some point or other. In that light, he'd never put the PC in a position where he'd be far enough away long enough to remove it- aka he wouldn't leave the Whitespires. This also makes sense because Monarch's greatest strength would be creating hordes of creations to serve him- so he'd be more valuable as a last line of defense than as a far-reaching covert agent of Rawal.

 

Similar arguments also forbid the G5 PC being the G4 PC. Canonically, the G4 PC releases, or at least allows the release, of the Unbound, kills Miranda, and grievously wounds Alwan. This is the same Alwan, I'd remind you, that you personally meet later in the game. If you were the G4 PC, he'd recognize you, and either a) kill you, or imprison you and probably torture you. Rawal would again, probably know this, and he's not about to send you into the lions den to get a book if he knows that Alwan exposing you for who you are could cost Rawal his council seat and possibly life.

 

However, the G2 PC would be totally unknown, not hopped up on canister, and perfectly sane albeit very powerful. If you subtract their recollection of events from G2, they'd make an ideal field agent, having already proved their competence before, and by already being loyalist to the Shaper cause. Furthermore, anyone who could recognize them is either dead or in one of the two provinces that conveniently can't be accessed in the center of Shaper power. There are powerful IC reasons for Rawal to use you, no compelling counter-evidence, no legitimate alternatives, and some decently hefty circumstantial evidence to boot, making the fact that G2 PC = G5 PC pretty obvious.

 

[Jeanne]

That's interesting Dantius, but it doesn't explain why the G2 PC was in Drypeak after the events of G2 took place or how they managed to use a geneforge. The G5 PC clearly has memories of using a geneforge before and there were none in G2.

[Trenton.]

So he did use the geneforge twice? I thought that would have major horrible consequences.

[Randomizer]

That only applies to the original Geneforge and the one in GF4. The others may have had less damaging effects.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

And to be fair, the stuff that has happened to the G5 PC fits many definitions of "major horrible consequences." It didn't decompose him/her into a pile of non-living meat, but it did cause retrograde amnesia and insanity.

[Trenton.]

What do you mean. He is not insane, for he can talk and make his own desicions cant he?

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Originally Posted By: Trenton the dragon lord

He is not insane, for he can talk and make his own desicions cant he?

He was insane for a lot of time before coming to his senses one day.

[Trenton.]

Failure...

 

 

He was not technically insane. He was more like...Dazed, or in a dream like state, going around and doing stuff with serviles.

[Vempele]

O RLY?

 

text1 = "_I saw your face. You ... You were like an animal. You couldn't think. You were just ... angry. Just furious. That's all you were. And your face ... it was ... It was like wax. It seemed to shift around._";

[Trenton.]

See what I mean? He was more dazed than insane

[Micawber]

Yup, he was dazed, and that explains why he woke up immediately upon being attacked at the beginning of Geneforge 5.

[Dantius]

Originally Posted By: Micawber

Yup, he was dazed, and that explains why he woke up immediately upon being attacked at the beginning of Geneforge 5.

That's a pretty strong daze. He must have run afoul of one of DV's Agents at some point prior to the game.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

He is not insane, for he can talk and make his own desicions cant he?

As someone who has seen people undergoing psychotic episodes, I must say "can talk and make one's own decisions" is a pretty abysmal definition of sanity.

I will also point out that catatonia (being "dazed" in the sense you've used the term) is itself often a symptom of psychiatric disorders: according to Wikipedia, catatonia "is associated with psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia (catatonic type), bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression and other mental disorders, as well as drug abuse or overdose (or both)." Rawal himself uses the term "dementia" in his journal to describe the G5 PC's condition.

Further, what Cute Melnachion didn't mention was that Vener also said the PC was hooded and shackled, and that s/he tried to escape. Hardly sounds like a person who's catatonic all the time, no?

[Vempele]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

That's a pretty strong daze.

No, he's immune to those. He must have looked at DNA - it never fails to daze a main character.

[Trenton.]

Originally Posted By: FnordCola

PC was hooded and shackled, and that s/he tried to escape.

Well if you were shackled up wouldn't you try to escape?

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

that doesn't necessarily mean he was sane. he could have been completely insane like a wounded animal.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Not if I were "dazed," no.

[tristram]

A bit of a bump but whatever. Just to throw something in: Don't both Alwan and Greta claim to have seen the main character before? I don't have the exact quote but Greta mentions it amusingly, implying that the character was either G3 Pro-rebel or G4 Pro-rebel (I'm leaning towards the former). Alwan mentions the character briefly, but doesn't really remember much implying that he didn't travel with the character for long, as would be the case if it was G3 Pro-rebel and Alwan left the group early.

 

Don't get me wrong, the G2 ending seems very strong, but has anyone explained away this little thorn in the side?

[Yuna Corne]

Both Alwan and Greta have mentioned seeing the main character before, but their reactions tend to imply that the PC has been changed in some way - that zie looked familiar but not intrinsically knowable. So in my opinion, that means that they've both seen/known the PC before whatever happened to cause hir to become unrecognizable - you know, like a face shifting like wax. So that rules out the G2 PC.

 

I can see the arguments for G3 PC, and I have no problem with them; the arguments against the G4 PC being the G5 PC (Alwan would kill the person who tried to kill him!) fall flat once more at the face shifting like wax bit. Looks familiar, but not the same. Could someone explain the argument against the G4 PC not being possible due to timeline issues? As I recall there was a few years between G4 and G5.

 

My argument still boils down to the same as it was before: only the G4 and G5 PCs could have been the same race. If the G5 PC was a servile, then what other servile would have been so powerful to have used the Geneforge and have been a lynch pin in the war? Only the G4 PC.

[Trenton.]

Thats if you choose a rebel character. May I remind you of, "See Shaper Classes"

[Yuna Corne]

It doesn't make sense for the option to play a servile to be available if the G5 PC hadn't been a servile previously.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Could someone explain the argument against the G4 PC not being possible due to timeline issues? As I recall there was a few years between G4 and G5.

There were a few years. Roughly three: G4 narration mentions that it takes place seven years into the rebellion, and G5 says it's been ten years. Vener in Stormhold saw Rawal's people bringing the PC with them three years prior. Specifically, he says: "When I saw you. It was about ... three years ago. I was patrolling a road in the Mera-Tev. South of Mera. It was night. At a camp. And a Shaper and three outsiders and four big creations came to our camp."

Now, at this point the PC was already insane. Rawal's journal mentions that his agents found the PC near Drypeak. Drypeak is relatively near to Gazaki-Uss. This means that they already traveled some distance (debated how much: could be anything from a few dozen miles to hundreds). Even if we assume relatively little travel time, and that "about three years" means a bit less, rather than equal or more, that still means that the PC was at Drypeak at the time, or very soon after, the ending of G4. Note that this is the more favorable interpretation: if Vener's "about three" means equal or more, then the G4 PC would literally have to be in two places at once.

This means that the G4 character would have to have gone insane and gotten to the Drypeak area from Northforge in the few weeks following the ending of G4, at most a few months. This strikes me as extremely unlikely. Both Rawal and Vener's descriptions make it sound like the PC alternated between catatonia and acting like a rabid animal. While the G4 PC (who is pretty much canonically rebel) was likely a canister junkie, it is unlikely that they could have done anywhere near as much as they did to help the rebels while anywhere near this level of crazy. Even if the G4 PC went crazy only after the ending of G4, either because of accumulated canister abuse or some other cause, it strains plausibility pretty far to think that they could have made a journey halfway across the known world in a period of a few weeks to a few months. While a normal person could probably have done so, most normal people aren't alternatingly catatonic and violently psychotic.

In short, many factors conspire to make the timelines just not add up if the G4 and G5 PCs are the same person. The best argument I've heard against this is not a refutation, but the simple fact that Jeff doesn't do timetables very well in his games, and thus date-crunching is a questionable method for determining things about them. I don't have much to say against this point: the G4 PC is highly unlikely if one cares about dates and times matching up, but when the writer of the story doesn't, it's hard to call that truly damning.

[tristram]

Wait, wait, why not combine the G3 PC with the Drypeak information? Going to Drypeak doesn't mean being from G2, it just means walking to Drypeak.

 

What if G3 PC left the party at some point in the journey and headed over to Drypeak, because the rebellion started there and was worth investigating? By then, she (due to all G3 artwork, we can assume the canon story involves playing agent) had been heavily modified. At Drypeak, she either goes crazy, or finds a huge stash of canisters (we have found stranger things in this series) and goes crazy. Maybe she finds Glamdring. After all, who says Litalia was the only character the drakons shaped huge amounts of power into? Maybe they went on the drakonian logic of "Well, shaping this one lady this much still left her sane. Let's shape this new one even more." Then you go crazy and found by Rawal, etc.

 

This combines knowing Greta, Alwan, and Drypeak. Also, it may explain the presence of the Sorceress class (which due to artwork we can also assume is canon). The reason Jeff never included Strong magic average shaping before was because it would be too powerful. Now let's look at that character: You started out as an Agent in canon G3, got heavily modified (more powerful). The sorceress is intended to be a more powerful version of the agent class. So it all fits.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

(due to all G3 artwork, we can assume the canon story involves playing agent)

No, we can't. The only indication that the artwork reflects series canon is, well, the artwork. I agree that a G3 Agent becoming a G5 sorceress is nice and parsimonious, but none of that is really a strong argument in its favor.

Quote:

The reason Jeff never included Strong magic average shaping before was because it would be too powerful. Now let's look at that character: You started out as an Agent in canon G3, got heavily modified (more powerful). The sorceress is intended to be a more powerful version of the agent class. So it all fits.

This is confusing gameplay with story. There is no indication in story that any class is better than any other. One could probably come up with a convoluted, tortuous, and entirely speculative explanation for why the relative power of various classes shifts between games (e.g. the guardian being a powerhouse in G2 because of parry, and one of the worst classes in 3 and 5), but why bother? It's clear that these are problems with play balance, not elements of the plot. Anyway, what evidence do you have that "the sorceress is intended to be a more powerful version of the agent class?" Aside from being more a variant on the infiltrator than the agent (since the sorceress is a rebel class), nothing Jeff has said indicates to me that the classes are intended to be anything but balanced with one another. The fact that they aren't, and he knows this now, doesn't mean that he intended them to be unbalanced: it's more likely that he simply couldn't rebalance them effectively without seriously altering the game system.

That said, I agree with the point about Drypeak: while it's redolent of G2, there's no reason another character couldn't have gone there, either to investigate the ruins (which would clearly interest many a rebel), or simply wander into that area while already crazy.

[Emman]

The main character could be the Shaper from Geneforge 3.

 

[Waladil]

I think the best candidate is the GF3 PC, and possibly Monarch:

 

After the events of GF3, Greta and Alwan go their separate ways to begin their careers as a Shaper and rebel, respectively. The PC (who is most likely going to be far more powerful than either one of them) sees the two who were once friends becoming bitter enemies, and with a little canister-madness thrown in, decides that if they can't talk out their differences, well someone will just have to MAKE them work together.

 

Enter Monarch. One moment of alliance between the once-friends but now-enemies to fight a third party to a standstill (until the GF4 PC walks in, of course). After losing, Monarch is forced to flee, and goes to Drypeak to learn about the beginnings of the rebellion: He* doesn't care about who's right and who's wrong, he just wants his friends back. At Drypeak, he loses (the rest of) his mind and is captured by Rawal's agents.

 

When he's brought to Minallah, Rawal doesn't recognize either the GF3 PC or Monarch: Why would he know either one of them? But he recognizes power. Thus the control tool, and the beginnings of GF5.

 

This does explain some important things: Greta and Alwan both destroy all mention of the GF3 PC (Aside from out-of-game reasons). This would imply that he did something they're ashamed of, and becoming Monarch would qualify. Also, it explains why they treat you with faint recognition in GF5: Both are very smart people, and when they see you, they immediately recognize you and realize that you do not recognize them. They quickly figure that they can use you as a new person, and take advantage of this.

 

The timing is better on Monarch than the GF5 PC, and I don't think that Alwan would forgive the GF5 PC for anything, even if he lost his mind and was rebuilt from the ground up.

Someone mentioned that Rawal wouldn't try to control Monarch, because Monarch is too powerful to be controlled: Remember, Rawal has no idea who the PC is, just a crazed, powerful Shaper.

 

Monarch is definitely the "optional part" here, and the GF3 PC is the central idea. GF3 PC does something shameful, gets removed from records (but not memories), loses his mind, and then is manipulated by those who were once his friends.

 

*For personal convenience, I'm using the male pronoun here. I'm fully aware that there are other possibilities.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

@Waladil: This all seems plausible. I'd differ on a few details, but that's more personal preference than anything that can be backed with evidence. For instance, it's possible that some or all of the G3/G5 characters (Greta, Alwan, Litalia...) honestly don't recognize you. In particular, as you say, it's hard to believe that Alwan would ever trust a rebel-friendly G3 PC.

 

Also, if we're talking about Shaper Monarch, it's pretty much certain that he's male...the possibility exists, though faint, that he was so radically reshaped that he changed in appearance from female to male (there is some precedent for this, e.g. implications regarding sexual reassignment from Rawal's guardian), but at the time he was clearly identified as male.

 

All in all, the G3 PC -> Monarch -> G5 PC theory is my favorite.

[Trenton.]

I am not familier with Monarch and this little scuffle. I have not the full game. Can someone explain this to me? Who the hell was monarch?

[Waladil]

Monarch was a minor character in GF4. He made tons of rogue creations and was briefly so powerful that the rebels and Shapers had to stop fighting just to hold the line against his forces.

 

Then you come in and kill him /run him off.

 

Also, as to the gender thing: Those robes are pretty baggy. We really can't be sure whats underneath. o.O

[Slawbug]

Originally Posted By: Trenton-bok

Who the hell was monarch?

Trenton, please think about how you are talking to people here. Lately you've been coming off as pretty rude. I think people would appreciate you more here if you removed unnecessary vituperation from your posts. Consider this a friendly warning.

[Trenton.]

Very sorry about that Slarty, I'll try to cut down on the obscenities.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

Also, as to the gender thing: Those robes are pretty baggy. We really can't be sure whats underneath. o.O

Yeah, all I really mean is that the narration uses male pronouns to describe Monarch.

[Yuna Corne]

Maybe she was flat-chested and everyone else is just jerky about it?

[Trenton.]

I was surprised the sorcerer is really flat chested. Why do only the women get the "Strength" In magic. They get it in Shaping, but men can't choose sorcerer or agent? With the figure of sorcerer/sorceress, its graphics are fine enough for both.

[Sudanna]

The restriction is purely because of graphical limitations.

[Lilith]

nalyd what are you doing the session's on, get on AIM already

[DisgruntledFish]

All I can say about this discussion is that, it's a bit pointless. How this works is all in opinion of what game you wished your character came from. There's no need to go all super-nerd on the subject.

 

Maybe Jeff intended the series to end like this. Think you're a story writer: " Now, I've created an amazing game series with an awesome storyline and a need for an ending. The first three were all pretty chronological if the player were pro-shaper. The recent one had an unexpected twist of fate, as I introduced several new classes and a whole different point of view to begin." What better way to end a series than to scrap the whole consistency idea and start out without a background this time, to really make the player feel more attached to the story. And this time I'll pull all the elements of the other games and push them together into a masterpiece.

Maybe the character was insane but became a vegetable somewhere along the way from Vener's story to Rawal's. Maybe in your dazed state you suddenly awoke through instinct that you would battle again, and once more go through an epic journey to make the world how you fit it to be. It doesn't matter all the same, but the I know that I couldn't have the series end any other way.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Quote:

All I can say about this discussion is that, it's a bit pointless. How this works is all in opinion of what game you wished your character came from. There's no need to go all super-nerd on the subject.

As I've said in response to similar statements: if you're not interested in the discussion, feel free not to participate. Please don't tell people who are interested in a subject to not "go all super-nerd" on it. It's disrespectful, and frankly this whole forum is devoted going all super-nerd on things, and it's not as if what we discuss on here is generally of earth-shattering significance.

[Waladil]

Besides, my arguments are a counterpoint to yours: I have never beaten ANY Geneforge game except for 4 and 5. 4 is by far my personal favorite, as it was the first Spiderweb game I was introduced to.

Yet I argue that the character came from GF3, a game which I played (but never beat.)

The lore I use is based on what I pick up from the later games, and the forums, so I admit there may be holes in my knowledge, but if my "wishes" were to come in here, I'd "wish" that my character came from 4. It doesn't really match the data, though.

[tristram]

Ok, I think we can agree at this point that there are different theories that all have validity. Frankly, I would be willing to accept the PC from G1, G2, G3... clearly not G4. Point is, maybe Jeff did intend to leave it up to the player. After all, he seems to be giving us JUST enough information to NOT know for certain. Seems a bit too perfectly done to be a coincidence. Maybe this is his way of saying, "You have not only the freedom of deciding how the series ends, but also the freedom of deciding what ultimately happened to all the previous characters." And that's a good thing on his part. I think I'll leave it as is, personally, but there have been some great theories here.

[DisgruntledFish]

Thank you, someone with reason!

[lngarra]

I've played all 5 games, and have seen basically all of the endings. In regards to who the main character of Geneforge 5 is, I think it is the main character from Geneforge 3. There are reasons as to why it is perhaps this one, and definitely not the one from Geneforge 4:

 

Let's look at what we know both characters have in common:

1. Both know Alwan, Greta, and Litalia.

2. The endings in the next game in the series seem to be more akin to rebel endings in G3 and G4.

3. Both are powerful. (my opinion, but one is the killer of an extremely powerful shaper, entiring past an entire TOWN of shapers and other creations as a KID! (stated to be young in series) And the other killed off Monarch, Salassar, Miranda, Alwan (severely wounded), and many, many others.

 

So it should be one of these characters.

 

Here are some differences:

1. We KNOW that the G4 character has used the Geneforge. We don't know if the G3 character did or not, although there are hints of it. (discussed later on)

2. One character that was missed in the discussion was Ghaldring, who was in both G4 and G5, and mentioned in all but G1. If you played G4, you know that you end up dueling his second-in-command and killing him, doing him a huge favor. And you DEFINITELY met Ghaldring, and impressed him. Now granted, Ghaldring is arrogant, but I don't think he'd forget about someone who did him such a big favor, or the human/servile that killed his most powerful subordinate. When he met the G5 character, he acted like he didn't know who he was. (Granted, he could've been acting) This leads me to think that it is the G3 character, since it is unlikely they saw each other over this time, since they had no reason to meet.

Now for hints of G3 character using geneforge:

1. When in G4, Greta mentions, when talking about Monarch, that running off and going crazy happens much more often than you'd think. This leads me to the idea that this happened to the G3 character. The fact is, he/she seems to really have disappeared, with his/her fate unknown to anyone. In G5, when using the geneforge, it is always mentioned that the character used it before, but that it was a bad one. And as far as we know, the G4 character really didn't have too many problems with the one they used. So, perhaps G3 used the geneforge that the rebels created for humans, something went wrong, and the G3 character disappeared.

2. Litalia seems to know alot about you. And we can speculate that the G3 character and her grew to be pretty close. Although Litalia definitely seemed to like the G4 character, I don't think she had the same bond as she did with the other.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Sudanna]

Please don't resurrect topics that are almost a year old.

[Mosquito---Slayer]

@Ingarra welcome to spiderweb forums, please leave your sanity at the door,these discussions help a lot in this regard .

I'm not sure why you didn't factor in the G2 PC at all, he is also quite a popular opinion among most people.

(Also Nalyd I'm pretty sure you are allowed to necro if you are contributing something significant, which in my opinion he is, not that it matters anyway.)