Geneforge Avernum link?

[Txgangsta]

I just started playing Avernum 5 when the idea came to me. the Trogovites (or how ever u spell it) are those that dont believe in shaping, and Avernum doesnt use it. Maybe the Trogovites win in the last geneforge and create the Empire? What does everyone else think about this???

[Azarr]

*Sigh* So how many fyoras and serviles did you encounter in Avernum/Exile?

 

And why exactly do you think that the Trakovites form the empire?

It doesn't really seem like their style.

[Txgangsta]

Large Lizards and goblins obviously have no resemblance to fyoras and serviles =) Evolution! Also, with the shapers gone, how could they make more fyora's when it says that they make them so they cant reproduce???

 

Edit: Why wouldn't the Trakovites make an empire, power is fun!

[Xaiya]

Power is what they want to avoid.

[The Ratt]

Once again we run into the concept of Averforge... Check the Code of Community, there is something about it in there.

[Txgangsta]

Ok, maybe the Trakovites don't make the empire, but they still could be the ones that take out the shapers. Also, its not Averforge, Its Generum. Geneforge came first =)

[Xaiya]

No, Avernum was the first series, besides Exile.

[Txgangsta]

Starwars 4,5 and 6 were first too. =)

[Randomizer]

The only connection between the two is that Jeff got lazy and imported the Geneforge engine and graphics when he made Avernum 4.

 

I'm waiting for the new game after Avernum 6 so we can have a new discussion on which world it's more closely related to. *sarcasm*

[Xaiya]

Quote:

Starwars 4,5 and 6 were first too.

Don't twist my words.

[Dikiyoba]

Exile shot first?

 

Dikiyoba.

[CrouchingOwl]

More interesting link would seem to be in Nethergate Resurrection the Areana were supposedly shaped or magically bred to be a watchdog of sorts and escaped the lab. Can't remember the exact text of it, was written on the webs right next to the Wild Hunt spell or something. But, on the other hand I don't think there are any spiders in Geneforge are there? It was a weird world crossover for him to put in. I mean nobody is noticeably doing magic breeding in Nethergate, but we have an entire race of magically bred spiders.

[Jeran Korak]

Do we still do troll of the month?

 

But seriously, there is actually some sneaky evidence lying around that coinnects Avernum to Geneforge. No really I mean it. I'm not joking.

[Txgangsta]

There are plenty of spiders in geneforge. The clawbugs! Most of the creatures are probably just repeated in both because they're cool and work for both games, but still...

[Lucheiah]

Mate, I think you're grasping at straws, honestly. There are likely to be similarities between the games. This is a completely natural phenomenon, as the games are all made by the same person. However, I don't think having some similar creatures is enough evidence to claim that the Geneforge and Ermariana (Avernum/Exile & Empire) worlds are the same place at different points in evolution. The geography's not remotely the same AFAIK, and there really isn't any evidence to suggest it. It would be like saying, "Middle-Earth is the same as "normal" earth because they both have spiders and horses and bugs!" Uhm, no, the lack of logic in that statement enrages and infuriates me.

[Xaiya]

Quote:

The geography's not remotely the same

Uh, that can change over time.

[Janitorial Closet]

You know, I generally think that the idea that there is any cross between Avernum and Geneforge is stupid. I mean seriously. Come on.

 

But just yesterday I thought of a scenario that would (probably) satisfy your guys' apparent want of a link between them.

 

First comes Avernum. The Empire desires all alien and monsters killed right? So they succeed. All that is left is normal creatures. They find 2 new continents (one of them being Terrestia(Did I spell that right?) ). Then some idiot Empire dude discovers essence and starts testing on little creatures of the forest and making them into better little creatures of the forest. Word gets out and a group called the Shapers comes up. Then they learn how to acually create creatures from scratch. Then time passes. After that the Shapers set up an outpost on Sucia island. They create canisters and Geneforge.

 

Viola. Instant scenario explaining a link between the games.

 

But personally ,like I said in the beginnning, the idea of a link between the games is stupid.

 

Do with this post what you will.

 

EDIT: Why do I get this feeling that this post will start a lot of talk on these boards?

[Xaiya]

Uh, no. Not right.

Teleportation isn't really mentioned at all in the Geneforge series. So they didn't have teleportation developed then.

 

So if there is a connection, Avernum would be second.

[Janitorial Closet]

Quote:

Originally written by Have a very Iffy Christmas:
Uh, no. Not right.
Teleportation isn't really mentioned at all in the Geneforge series. So they didn't have teleportation developed then.

So if there is a connection, Avernum would be second.

Well that seems like saying there isn't a link between-

Wait a minute. Why am I defending something I don't care about? Never mind.

[Celtic Minstrel]

Quote:

Originally written by Txgangsta:
Ok, maybe the Trakovites don't make the empire, but they still could be the ones that take out the shapers. Also, its not Averforge, Its Generum. Geneforge came first =)

No, Avernum came first, even in publication order - at least in the form of Exile. Geneforge was made third. (Nethergate was second.)

Quote:

Originally written by Lucheiah:
the Geneforge and Ermariana (Avernum/Exile & Empire) worlds

The Geneforge world is called Terrestia, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally written by Have a very Iffy Christmas:
Uh, no. Not right.
Teleportation isn't really mentioned at all in the Geneforge series. So they didn't have teleportation developed then.

So if there is a connection, Avernum would be second.

You're assuming culture can only progress, when in fact regression is also possible. So they could have forgotten how to teleport.

However, there is teleportation in Geneforge (apparently), so it's really a moot point.

I don't think there is a link between Avernum and Geneforge, but it's possible. Shaping is mentioned in Avernum at least once*, as something the Vahnatai do, so it's theoretically possible that humans learned from the Vahnatai and went on to create the Shaper society.

*The troglodyte's explanation of their origin in episode 3.

[Txgangsta]

Geneforge couldn't have came first because of many reasons.

 

1) No teleportation.

2) The Avernum caverns haven't been discovered.

3) The only known continent is Terrestia, but the Sha'el or whatever are other peoples on a different continent, and no one knows where they came from.

 

Yes, regression is possible, but how would the caverns be forgotten? And an empire that spanned the world completely gone from everyones history???

[Janitorial Closet]

Quote:

Originally written by Txgangsta:
Yes, regression is possible, but how would the caverns be forgotten? And an empire that spanned the world completely gone from everyones history???

(I logged in just to say this)
With all the problems in Terrestia I doubt the Shapers would really care about Exile. And the Shapers probably were, at first, in league with the Empire but then overthrew them on the 2 continents the Shapers now control.

In G1, G2, & G3 your character is too busy surviving to care about anything other than the Shapers. And in G4 everyone is to busy with the rebellion to care about the outside world.

That is if you care about such matters.

[Txgangsta]

But why would the shapers not use the resources of the caverns? Also, why wouldn't the Avernites take advantage of the turmoil of the empire? The Shapers didn't even know that other lands existed. Geneforge would have had to come first.

[Lucheiah]

Assuming, of course, that they're part of the same world.

 

Incidentally, if GF and Avernum did exist on the same world, why do the worlds have different names? The world in which GF is set is Terrestia, the world in which Avernum/Exile is set is Ermariana. Ermariana has four continents so I don't think the "maybe they're different parts of the same world" argument would hold much water.

 

And Iffy: Yes, the geography could change, but could you answer a question for me? How long did it take for pangaea to become the landmasses we know today? My geography is a bit rusty but I vaguely remember it being somewhere in the MILLIONS of years. So unless it's the same world millions of years later...

 

No. No no no, so not going there...

[Txgangsta]

The one continent that the shapers live on is called Terrestia, not the whole world. They dont know about the rest of the world, other than there is more out there because they have had contact with the shol'ai. Lucheiah, the geography doesn't have to change to much to give a completely different weather pattern, changing the landscape even more drastically, but I dont think we ever know what the Avernum over world looks like, so we have nothing to compare each to.

[Sudanna]

Nice, but Geneforge already has a history. Have you found The Secret in G1 yet?

[Lyric]

What secret?

[Taliesin]

Hint: Touch the stone pillars clockwisely.

[Spartan-117]

The idea is stupid, they are entirely different universes, there is nothing to suggest that either might have come before the "other" because they are entirely different universes made by Jeff, to try and link them together is retarded, we do not need any fyoras "evolving" into goblins or whatever you said! Terrestria is one continent yes but a BIG one, many of the concepts in Avernum conflict with those in Geneforge, some guy could not just discover "essence" and my goodness Trakovites becoming the empire?

 

Idiocy

 

There are many other continents out in the Geneforge world, but they have not been revealed because they do not pertain to the freakin story and Jeff does not care, why would he worry about making up other continents if the focus was on one?

 

Which shows my second point, you are trying to make up a plot line exploitation to connect Avernum and Geneforge, yet if there was one Jeff would put in both games evidence that if you figured it out would connect the too. He has not in any way tried to connect the two, and thus a connection does not exist.

 

You are also forgetting the big secret of Sucia Island, that disproves any connection as far as I am concerned.

 

Can I ask this topic get locked? It isn't going anywhere.

[Spartan-117]

Quote:

Originally written by Mythrael:
What secret?

If you want to find that go get the FAQ, it tells you how to do it, not what it is, but it explains enough to know the idea of Averforge is stupid

[Txgangsta]

The secret doesn't pertain to anything, because im claiming that Geneforge came first. Avernum is Geneforge's future, not past.

[Spartan-117]

Quote:

Originally written by Txgangsta:
The secret doesn't pertain to anything, because im claiming that Geneforge came first. Avernum is Geneforge's future, not past.

Didnt you listen to anything I said? I said that because Jeff Vogel doesnt try to create a connection between the two it doesnt exist.

Whether or not Avernum came out in 2003 or Geneforge came out in 2002 does not matter, those are when the game was finished and released, it has nothing to do with "Geneforge came first, Avernum second" they have no connection and thus neither came first or second.

In Geneforge the history is simple, the secret explains where the Shapers came from, the Shapers had ruled for at least a milinia, intelligent creations and forbidden secrets get loose.

From their war insues, that is the history of Geneforge, their are no freakin vahnatai sliths and nephils.

Get this idea of "Avernum is future of Geneforge" out of your head, there IS NO connection stop trying to make one up.

Gah >_>

[Taliesin]

Darkling, we all know you're right. The concept of Averforge (or Genevernum, as some would have it) is based on no evidence whatsoever. But some people like to invent connections, just to be creative if nothing else.

 

And by the way, there is a connection... both Geneforge and Avernum came from the same mind!

 

I don't think this thread deserves a lock. Yet.

[Txgangsta]

There is no evidence that they aren't connected, other than it is a bit of a stretch. When the next game comes, i think there will be a few more connections, until we get to the last one. I'm not saying its true, but it has many similarities, and it is completely possible that they are connected. Why are you so opposed to a simple opinion, Darkling?

[The Ratt]

As I stated at the very beginning of this thread, check the Code of Community (if someone could provide a link that would be nice). It states, that you should not think of such things as averforge or generum, because they were not meant to be the same world, and thinking that irks Jeff.

[nikki.]

Sigh. Neither Geneforge or Avernum have anything in common with each other plotwise. The only link is the recycled graphics (and from A4 onwards the recycled engine).

 

On the other hand, it is at least feasible that both Geneforge and Avernum are linked to Nethergate. I mean, when all the critters and faeries pass beyond, they don't all go to the same place...

[Lyric]

could anyone pm me about what was written in that "the secret", cause i don't want to replay the game?

[Celtic Minstrel]

Quote:

Originally written by Txgangsta:
Geneforge couldn't have came first because of many reasons.

1) No teleportation.
2) The Avernum caverns haven't been discovered.
3) The only known continent is Terrestia, but the Sha'el or whatever are other peoples on a different continent, and no one knows where they came from.

Yes, regression is possible, but how would the caverns be forgotten? And an empire that spanned the world completely gone from everyones history???

I still doubt there is a connection BUT:
1) I have seen posts that mention teleportation in Geneforge.
2) The caverns could have been forgotten.
3) Not sure what to say about this one. It doesn't really seem relevant.
The caverns could be forgotten if something else came up that they had to focus their attention on – for example, the discovery of Shaping. Same goes for the Empire, if said discovery causes it to collapse.

You might be surprised how much can be forgotten over time. A thousand years later, or two or four thousand, they may remember, a little. A million years later, it could be completely forgotten.

I don't really think a connection is possible though. Consider this: Terrestia lacks almost all of the distinctive creatures that exist in Ermariana: Nephilim, Slithzerikai, Vahnatai, dragons, hydras, chitraches, troglodytes, ogres, goblins, giants, basilisks,... the list goes on. In fact, I think the only sentient race in Terrestia was humans until the creation of the serviles, drayks, and drakons. Contrast this with Ermariana, which has at least two original sentient races: the dragons and the Vahnatai. Note the absence of humans. According to this site (not sure if this is canon though), the humans are a creation in Ermariana. In Terrestia, they are the creators. Sure, it's possible that a created race goes on to create other races, but how likely is it?

(Edit: Oops, I missed the second page! Oh well...)

I don't know about the secret since I haven't bought the game yet, but I really don't think there can be any connection. And while a connection between Geneforge and Avernum is ever so slightly possible, connecting either of them to Nethergate is just silly.

[Txgangsta]

All of those creatures could have been shaped, and most of them could be the upgrades of existing ones (i.e. fyora->basilisk).

[Spartan-117]

Accidental double post, please delete

[Spartan-117]

You don't listen very well do you? No it could not have been #%#$%# shaped because Avernum is an entirely different UNIVERSE! There are NO SHAPERS! Stop coming up with stupid ideas on how they could not be connected, Jeff has made neither to be connected, to be entirely different universes, what you keep trying to do is the equivalent of joining like say Warcraft 3 to Warhammer 40k, that doesn't work and is retarded,

 

Can I ask one of the admin to lock this topic?

 

Gah

[Drayk Armitage]

I am locking this topic because nothing good will come of it.

 

Darkling, while I agree with you heartily, I am also asking you to chill out. Please refrain from calling people stupid (or retarded) just because they disagree with you. Personal attacks are a violation of the Code of Conduct. Consider this a friendly warning.