The Future of Blades of Avernum

[SkeleTony]

I suspect another problem was the fact that hackers had a crack out for BoA shortly after it was released. I discovered this by typing "Blades" or something like that into the Bearshare search engine. But then again, if they cracked BoA then they must have crakced the other games as well right(I never checked for such)?

 

I am surprised that BoA did not sell well considering the comparituive value of that product with the value of buying , what is in essence a single scenario in A4 or GF 3 or whatever.

 

I seriously doubt that VotDT was a weak selling point. I realize that a lot of scenario designers, for whatever reason tend to bash it but really it is comparable to or better than 99% of the RPGs released in terms of being a decent RPG adventure. Sure A Small Rebellion was better but VotDT was good. You guys make it sound like it was the "Pool of Radiance: RoMD" of Avernum scenarios!?

[*i]

It would be logical to assume that all the games have been cracked. I mean, realistically, no game is immune to being pirated. Game designers are at the mercy of people being somewhat honest.

 

I don't think VoDT was terrible, on the contrary, it is fine, but I think allowing more basic play to demonstrate things would have been better. However, I think Blades of Avernum was not marketed as well as it could have been (the editor not packaged with the application). Beyond that the scheme for making scenarios is pretty cumbersome in BoA versus BoE. So there are a lot of things that made BoA a flop.

[Lilith]

The problem is not that VoDT is bad. The problem is that you don't need to register in order to finish it, so VoDT gives no incentive to register.

[DesertPlah]

*resurrection*

 

Dear Mr. V:

 

I eagerly await the day you release the source code for BoE. I am aware you had some difficulty with it being stuck on an old PC? What's the status on that, and -if- you're no whiz with tearing up old computers in order to get data from them, I could advise . (Though I imagine you'd have little trouble with that, as you work with computers for a living.)

 

Impatient and uninformed,

Desert Plah

[Mr. Slithzerikai]

I liked VoDT...It makes me wanna buy the game...but I need some money first

 

Just wish I knew how to use the editor...some is just a bit too confusing for me..

[aka Ravenwing]

Don't worry, Nine Inch. It's something you get the hang of when you work with it enough. Actually finishing scenarios is where it gets tricky for some people.

[Sudanna]

We might get BoG someday, if Jeff goes insane and starts doing big suggestions from us.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

I would so make BoG scenarios.

[Nioca]

Focus, Tullegolar! You need to finish the BoA scenario first!

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by The Absolute Value of Nalyd is Zero:
We might get BoG someday, if Jeff goes insane and starts doing big suggestions from us.

(clubs Nalyd with a BoA beta)

Shhhh!!! First, we get BoA fixed, then you can worry about your silly little fantasies, okay?

[DesertPlah]

I'd still like to see BoE code released before BoA is fixed

[Kelandon]

I think the first post of this thread sounded the death knell for BoG and for BoA bug fixes. Jeff has given some indication that he is interested in releasing the source for BoE, though, so that may yet happen (someday).

[DesertPlah]

Sooner than later, hoping.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
I think the first post of this thread sounded the death knell for BoG and for BoA bug fixes.

I read it, Kel. I'm just saying that BoA's fantasies need to come before BoG's...

[DesertPlah]

And BoE's reality before BoA's fantasy.

[Ishad Nha]

As for Blades of Geneforge, there may already be such a program. Glancing through the Data folder of Geneforge 2 I noticed a whole lot of small icons with numbers like 1600&. They struck me as looking like icons for a hypothetical Geneforge 3D Editor. (I would not be surprised if Jeff Vogel uses something like that to create the Geneforge games.)

 

In theory you could create BoA scenarios which are based upon the Geneforge world but it would take some doing: disabling all existing spells, creating new skills&&. Distributing skill points to the custom skills after gaining levels would be a problem.

 

A Blades of Nethergate would be an interesting idea. Once again, creating a Nethergate - based BoA scenario would be quite a problem.

[Lazarus.]

Does Jeff still design in 2D? I mean, the same editor icons still exist in GF4, by which time I think Jeff already knew that BoG wasn't going to happen. Boy, that guy needs to get with the times.

 

A Geneforge based scenario could be done, the only real problem would be that the creations would have to be either A: Uncontrollable Joined NPCs, or B: PC's, which the player would have to be asked to change the graphic for. I've never played a GF beyond the intro, so I don't really know much beyond that. If the creations can be done, I see no reason the rest can't be.

 

Nethergate would be fairly simple, though. The engine is nearly identical, so porting graphics would be easy and you wouldn't have to do much besides redoing spells. I guess the experience system is pretty different, but I'm sure it could be worked out.

[Thralni]

In theory, one could actually make an SDF for creation energy, give the player a list of available creations to create with editional creations to be learned while playing the scenario, and that way the player could make creations. The fancy stuff that comes with it (the sounds and special effects) can be quite easily made, i think. I do think the creations will have to have a specific script that is tied to them, throughw hich one can enable a function that will make the player's ernergy SDF higher upon creation death.

 

Getting the exact graphics from Geneforge shouldn't be a problem, as it has been done quite frequently. I don't see a problem, and I might even try it in one of my still-to-be-made scenarios.

[Kelandon]

I wouldn't have even considered making creations joined NPCs, but I guess one could. If you want to allow unlimited creations, you could also make them sort of BoE-style: they're hidden monsters in each town that appear if they exist and stay hidden if they don't.

 

This would require some effort in the outdoors, though.

[Thralni]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the fact that they should follow the party... There is a limit of six NPCs in the party, right? If so, it would be a little limited...

[Lazarus.]

Well unless you want to mix joined creations and PC creations (which would be awful) the limit would be either:

 

3 if you chose the PC route (which allows for player control but designer can't set graphics)

 

2 for joined NPCs (which act like idiots)

 

Or just about unlimitted for the BoE way (which could theoretically be very intelligent with good scripting, but again control is going to be clunky at best, nonexistant at worst.)

 

The problem with the BoE way is that the creatures have to follow the player. I've done this before but only for a single dungeon-- if the creations act stupid and get in your way a lot, it'll get annoying fast.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Lazarus::
Nethergate would be fairly simple, though. The engine is nearly identical, so porting graphics would be easy and you wouldn't have to do much besides redoing spells. I guess the experience system is pretty different, but I'm sure it could be worked out.

Don't say that, or Tyran's never going to finish his scenario.

[Ishad Nha]

The mechanics are fairly straightforward:

 

Special Geneforge (or Nethergate) skills can be handled as Stuff Done Flags. The call change_pc_skill_pts can enable BoA skill points to be converted into values for SDFs, into skill points for "Geneforge/Nethergate skills", via the Increment Flag call.

(Edit: this is not such a bright idea if the party will be going from one scenario to another. Especially if some of the scenarios are Geneforge and some not. A better idea is to have a second set of "skill points" for "Geneforge skills", both the skill points and the skills will be represented by SDFs.)

 

The means to do this can be given to trainers or to a Special Ability

 

With 9000 SDFs there will be plenty of room for special skills and spells. In Geneforge 4 there are 19 skills, 15 types of monster shaping and 40 spells. Actually selling these things will probably require dialog nodes, one text response per skill/spell. By contrast, gaining these skills by canisters will be quite straightforward.

 

Actually viewing the Geneforge skills will be a bit tougher and may require a lot of use of print big str or the use of a dialog box. In the latter case, the punctuation and layout won’t be optimum.

[Ephesos]

So, basically it's way more work than it'd be worth.

[Ishad Nha]

As for the effort involved, it is no problem if you really want to have a BoA Geneforge scenario.

 

You won't have to come up with a BoA - style spell screen/toolbar. I mean Kelandon showed how custom spells could work in Exodus.

 

I don't recall any limitations as to what type of creature NPCs must be. Usually they are human but the game views them as Character ID numbers.

 

The Louvre has a lot of Geneforge graphics for BoA, four separate sheets of Outdoor Terrain from Geneforge. Then there are seven sheets of Geneforge items, along with graphics for individual monsters.

[Kelandon]

Special spells are easy. As for special skills, it'd probably be best just to add another set of special skills (Magic Skills, Shaping Skills) onto the default set, instead of trying to replace the default set (which is basically impossible).

 

And while I'd like to think that Exodus is the first scenario to handle special spells elegantly, it was certainly not the first scenario to have special spells.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Ishad Nha:
I don't recall any limitations as to what type of creature NPCs must be. Usually they are human but the game views them as Character ID numbers.

The problem is not that monsters can't be made into joinable NPCs. The problem is that custom creature scripts seem to not work properly when applied to joinable NPCs, so their only AI is shounen-ai.

[Dintiradan]

By Thuryl:

Quote:

The problem is not that monsters can't be made into joinable NPCs. The problem is that custom creature scripts seem to not work properly when applied to joinable NPCs, so their only AI is shounen-ai.

I think that putting conditionals into basicnpc could work. I haven't gotten around to testing it yet, though.

 

--------------------

Listen to me, young man, you will drink the blood of the innocent and you will LIKE IT.

- Goblin (OotS #93)

[Nioca]

Nope. The only state that's used in a joinable NPC's script is the DEAD_STATE. The rest is ignored.

 

Hmm... I wonder if I could cut a joinable NPC's script down to merely a DEAD_STATE.

[Ishad Nha]

Definitely other scenarios had special spells, the Exodus scenario had the best - developed system to date.

 

Any of the Geneforge games would be easy to convert to a Blades of Geneforge. Like Blades of Avernum and Avernum 4, (and unlike Avernums 1, 2 and 3) they have a core program and a whole lot of scripts. The GF# Scendata.dat is much like the Bas file in a BoA scenario.

 

As I have mentioned earlier, I am sure that Jeff Vogel already has his own personal editor for each of the Geneforge games. So creating a Blades of Geneforge is an easy job for even a busy JV. You might want the ability to port BoA scenarios, that would be a fun job.

[Kelandon]

Quote:

Originally written by Ishad Nha:
As I have mentioned earlier, I am sure that Jeff Vogel already has his own personal editor for each of the Geneforge games. So creating a Blades of Geneforge is an easy job for even a busy JV.

No, it wouldn't. He already had an editor for the Avernum Trilogy, but creating BoA was one of the hardest things he's ever done. Granted, he spent much of that time adapting the GF scripts to the Avernum engine, but he also spent a great deal of time writing documentation, testing every last call to make sure that it would work even in situations that he'd never use himself, and so on.

Making BoG would be hard and time-consuming, and I don't think the end product would justify the time. I'd rather have A5, GF5, and A6 than BoG. For that matter, I'd rather have a Carbonized BoE or a fixed BoA than a BoG.

[Imban]

Plus, I'm not really sure I see the market for Blades of Geneforge. I mean, sure, Blades of Exile and Blades of Avernum scenarios are often a lot LIKE Exile/Avernum, but a lot of people have set their scenarios in their own fantasy worlds.

 

Geneforge's system is a good bit more tied to its setting.

[macdude22]

Long time reader, first time poster. I used to play Exile many many many many moons ago as a small child( I think just the demo at that) and it still holds a unique place in my heart along with Realmz. These games fostered my love for the RPG genres. About a year ago I found my way to Spiderweb software again and dabbled with the demos but there was no time to play them as I was finishing up my BA. Soon after all of the Avernum games were purchased and I am working my way though them(geneforge is scratching at my wallet to get to my CC). I'm sad to see that BoA was not a financial success as the mass(well sudo-mass) of senarios is enough to keep me busy for months and months. I'll be purchasing a couple copies for my brother and sister, maybe do my part to show Jeff there is life in this build your own game idea. However I fully support whatever Jeff has to do to keep afloat, it's rough out there running your own business(certainly so in the game industry as fickle as us gamers can be).

[Lazarus.]

Welcome to spiderweb, leave your sanity... yada yada, you get the picture.

[Ephesos]

Yay, another BoA-er!

 

Seriously, though... is it just me, or a lot of new players coming out of the woodwork as of late?

[Pink Fyora]

*is reading this thread* Hmm...time to get to serious work on my 'A Servile's Tale' scenerio, then. I will be so proud of myself for pulling it off if I manage to do so.

 

Although, I wonder how many would smack me for the idea of a half-servile? (I know of a good number of Shapers that would!)

[Lazarus.]

I have no frigging clue about the geneforge plot lines you might be breaking, but apparently you're working on a Blades scenario, which earns you a big thumbs up from over here.

[macdude22]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:
Yay, another BoA-er!

Seriously, though... is it just me, or a lot of new players coming out of the woodwork as of late?

Wishful thinking but maybe enough to support Jeff revisiting BoA and the idea of producing this type of application?

[Callie]

I doubt Jeff would revisit BoA. I like BoA, but our discussions about the great game wouldn't compensate the fact that it didn't sell well.

[macdude22]

I figured as much, regardless I'm pushing it as hard as I can to folks I know who are into RPGs hoping can get a few more copies sold. I really dig the scenario/mod idea and I would desperatly hate to see the idea behind BoA/BoE die eventually. It almost seems to me(granted this isn't a scientific study by any means) that BoA was a victim of BoE's success. Seems like a lot of BoE users didn't feel compelled to upgrade to BoA for whatever reason. Why that is, I can't say, I'm sure there are a variety of reasons why, from scenario avalablilty to play style.

 

***EDIT***

 

Also, while not knocking the sudo-3D view of Avernum I do see a certain charm in in the true 2D graphics of BoE. There is such a thing that If I had been started on BoE I might be partial to it for one reason or another as well.

[Kelandon]

I think we've eventually concluded that the primary reason that BoA hasn't produced as many scenarios as BoE is that it's far harder to make a BoA scenario than a BoE one.

[macdude22]

Quote:

Originally written by Kelandon:
I think we've eventually concluded that the primary reason that BoA hasn't produced as many scenarios as BoE is that it's far harder to make a BoA scenario than a BoE one.

I've milled about getting BoE to see what all the hubbub is about but alas I sent my last production power mac(a mini) off to a family member who was in desperate need of a Mac. I could play it in Windows, but that would make me feel durrrty. Maybe in a couple years when I buy a house and have some room to hook up some of the old macs in storage I'll throw down the old school Exile. I recently posted on my Blog a plea to my 200ish readers to guy buy BoA so Jeff when the mega increased sales come soaring in just send the commission check my way. Seriously I'm hoping it persuades at least a couple people to purchase. The more I play BoA the more it grows on me like someone you love or a brain tumor (or is the cause of love brain tumors?).

[Callie]

If Spidweb ever improves BoA to level we can notice, they should put the demo everywhere. I discovered Spiderweb Software when I tried a demo CD called MacCubed or something like that. It had Exile I and Exile II, but that was a long time ago.

[macdude22]

Quote:

Originally written by Excalibur:
If Spidweb ever improves BoA to level we can notice, they should put the demo everywhere. I discovered Spiderweb Software when I tried a demo CD called MacCubed or something like that. It had Exile I and Exile II, but that was a long time ago.

OMG, thats where I got them from. Was like a 7 pack of CDs of shareware MacCubed. I think some of the disks are still in boxes at the old FarmHouse somewhere. I'm pushin BoA hard, I want Jeff to know that its a hot idea and somewhere it just hit a snag in the intergalactic superconductor. My personal goal is to reverse his current decision(which I understand, it's feed his family or support BoA at this point).

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by macdude22:
I recently posted on my Blog a plea to my 200ish readers to guy buy BoA so Jeff when the mega increased sales come soaring in just send the commission check my way. Seriously I'm hoping it persuades at least a couple people to purchase.

That's actually a really good idea... and it gives me a reason to actually touch the Share feature on Facebook.

[macdude22]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:

Quote:

Originally written by macdude22:
I recently posted on my Blog a plea to my 200ish readers to guy buy BoA so Jeff when the mega increased sales come soaring in just send the commission check my way. Seriously I'm hoping it persuades at least a couple people to purchase.

That's actually a really good idea... and it gives me a reason to actually touch the Share feature on Facebook.

Cripes you gave me a reason to log onto faceboxtubenet. I think we just started a grassroots campaign to promote BoA.

[Callie]

Quote:

Cripes you gave me a reason to log onto faceboxtubenet. I think we just started a grassroots campaign to promote BoA.

Yay!

[Lokiron]

Sorry for being late for this great discussion.. and late buying the game. I am actually buying BoA right now - that is I await the confirmation e-mail and my key! I want to play now!!

Anyway, just wanted to say *slash wave* to all of you BoA'ers.

I am really glad to see such enthusiasm, because that means, hehe, more great scenarios for me

But how could it not sale well? The concept is nothing but brilliant and the scene is.. well.. AVERNUM!!

 

Whatever, just my contribution to your faith in the game

[aka Ravenwing]

I've tried getting my friends to play BoA, but it didn't take. I've been trying to tempt them by working on my scenario when they're around, but still no. Probably because it's sprite based. Bah. Spoiled, closed-minded…

[macdude22]

Unfortunatly that's the mindset of a lot of people. Flashy graphics and nothing more. As a gaming tech geek I've always been on the forfront of console gaming and the such but today's games just seem to not push my buttons anymore much. I play the Spiderweb Games alot of course, but these days I find myself playing less and less of my 360 and more and more of classic games on my Wii or on Gametap. There are sacks of really fun, older RTS games on Gametap that I have just been hammering. A lot of today's games seem to focus too much on graphics and add too much complex behavior that doesn't add much to the gameplay. Maybe I'm getting old(at the ripe age of 24).

 

Glad to see another BoA purchase. I've been pushing it hard and it's likely my sister will get into it but most are turned off by the graphics. And then there's my super cheap brother, twin no less, who seems to be of the mind set paying for games is some crime against humanity. He must have been adopted, rest of the fam loves games and we sink far to many dollars into the craft.