I give in...Jeff wins

[Death Knight]

Ive come to a standoff. I have recently come to the conclusion that i CANNOT enjoy any of jeff's games as i find them to be too insanely hard. I know its been said that if you can't play the game on normal, you should go to easy or casual. Im sorry, i find that to be to pathetic for me to do that.

 

I can flat out state that there is only one series that i can play the game and enjoy it with a challenge and not too much frustration-that series is avadon. Why? I don't know. The story's cool, its basically like gene forge that's fun.

 

This is not to say that these series don't have some good points. But aside from that, i would say that all of jeff's other series don't have a REASONABLE difficulty. Ive read a few reviews on the net of people that were good at games that were tough like soloing bg1 and 2. They told me that avadon was VERY difficult on normal.

 

Hah, try any of jeff's other games and you will see that they top avadon in difficulty.

 

Lets compare 2 game series that are somewhat similar and see what has more realistic value.

 

Eschalon series Vs. typical spiderweb game

 

Eschalon series right away loses to story as jeff can tell a better story (imo) however, Ebook 1, 2 still tells a good story. But look at the numbers of people that can get through the eschalon series. Its almost guaranteed that people can actually complete the game!

 

Ive read many people in reviews talk about why they won't play these games. Avadon is a step in the right direction. Its simplistic yet still challenges the general person.

 

Over the past months, I've yet to find a game that is fun from spiderweb that is still as entertaining and realistic as avadon.

 

These are the games I've played and how far I've gotten just so we can discuss this.

 

Avernum 5-Lysttek the beast, the boss before lyssteek is ridiculously overpowered

 

Avernum Escape from the Pit-Mertis, the undead, overpowered

 

Geneforge 4-Fens of aziraph, never-ending spawning, travel in-between zones that you can't pass

 

Geneforge 5-The unbound, need i say anymore.

 

Jeff wins in all those games as they are all unplayable for me.

 

Geneforge 1 i completed BARELY and with everyone's help on here no less!

 

Geneforge 2 is impossible for a guardian i was playing. Enemies hit for more health than you can possibly attain at one time!

 

I don't even have to go into the other games but they are all unplayable. I really hope that jeff keeps up with the avadon games because as it stands, there are no games that i can play from him right now because i suck.

[Dantius]

Twenty bucks says within the next ten responses to the thread somebody complains about the games being too easy for them to enjoy.

[Alorael at Large]

Remember, most people posting here are playing and enjoying Jeff's games. They're not too difficult, period. They're too difficult for your tastes. Others like playing on torment, which means they're not difficult enough on normal.

 

All I'll say is I don't understand how playing on casual can be too pathetic. If the difficulties were renamed and casual were normal, would it be pathetic? The point of a game is to be fun. If they're too difficult, they aren't fun; turn down the difficulty until they are! I'm personally a proponent of cheating in single-player games, too: tamper with that difficulty curve until you like it, and then play the game and have the most fun you can.

 

—Alorael, who cheated his way through Exile 3 and A1-3. He eventually went back and played them without cheating, later, but he had plenty of fun the first time. And then he had different fun the second time. Some people like playing on torment and cheating immensely. Do whatever you enjoy, and don't worry about some kind of judgment on your game-playing abilities. There isn't any.

[Lilith]

Some people complain that SW games are too easy, others complain that they're too hard. It's hard to please everyone, especially when people refuse to use the difficulty options that are available to them.

[Actaeon]

You can always find a way to make it harder. A singleton or canister free game on torment is more than enough challenge for the average Spiderwebber.

 

Making it easier is a blow to the ego, apparently, either by decreasing the difficulty or using cheats. I don't really mind not living up to Jeff's expectations of me, though.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Death Knight, it's a shame that you can't enjoy these games. I admit - these are some pretty tough games, and I can see and understand your frustration.

 

There is one point, though, that I'd like to mention.

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

I know its been said that if you can't play the game on normal, you should go to easy or casual. Im sorry, i find that to be to pathetic for me to do that.

The "easy/casual" option is there for people who want to enjoy the story without struggling through the difficult encounters. I'm not sure if it would help keep from wounding your ego, but you could play and think of it more as an interactive story than a video game.

[Death Knight]

Don't get me wrong, i love the story and everything that makes it a rpg, its just sad that i can't seem to grasp what to do. I still would say most people get turned off of his games difficulty.

[Lilith]

Keep in mind that that SW games are in the tradition of really, really old-school RPGs like Ultima and Wizardry -- the kind that came out a decade before Baldur's Gate. They're not really meant for "most people" in the first place: they're designed to serve a particular niche of players who specifically seek out that kind of game, and if anyone else enjoys them that's a bonus.

[Rowen]

I played all the games (E1-3, A1-5, A2.0) all on the lowest difficulty. I play all my games that way. I don't want miss the story of most games and I find that if I play it on higher difficulties then I do miss some story or get so frustrated that I quit. By playing on easy fist I can enjoy the story and game first; second play through I make it harder to see how well I can do.

 

I never did beat TimeSpliters 2 on the hardest setting, but I played it lots despite that.

[Death Knight]

Ok, after biting the bullet, i set geneforge 4 on easy. After 2 tries i managed to defeat the warped creator without too much aggravation. I think i might just have to play from easy from now on. It may be pathetic, but at least i can enjoy the experience. Ego or not.

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Don't get me wrong, i love the story and everything that makes it a rpg, its just sad that i can't seem to grasp what to do. I still would say most people get turned off of his games difficulty.

You should try being a beta tester for Jeff. I couldn't figure out a scripted fight in Avadon and spent an hour watching a monster get almost to zero health just to see
it get fully healed before I could complete my turn. Jeff finally rewrote it so there were more hints to how to do it.

The worst thing is like in Geneforge 4 where you have to complete the fight to advance. There is no place to go so you can level up and try again when you are more powerful. The only thing that you can do is use a character editor to adjust your character to see if that will fix the problem.

[Death Knight]

Jeez, you must have to use every edge you have to survive. I couldnt survive that. Ive beta tested for soldak entertainment-Dins curse. The first 3 weeks were brutal but once the respawn rate got fixed and monsters health got taken down by 75%, you could make it past lvl 15.

[nikki.]

Oh hey and it's important to remember that if you're uncomfortable playing on a lower difficulty (even though you really oughtn't) you can always drop to Easy for a tough fight, and then go back to Normal afterwards.

[Aran]

Quote:

I know its been said that if you can't play the game on normal, you should go to easy or casual. Im sorry, i find that to be to pathetic for me to do that.

Sorry in advance for the snark, but don't you find it pathetic to refuse to adjust the difficulty level and then complain about the difficulty level?

[Tracer Bullet]

What you need...is tactics. Combat in Geneforge favors the cunning, which is why I rarely play Guardian: Guardian has too few options as it takes Action Points to swap weapons.

Shaper is the best class, because having anywhere from one to seven expendable units is a huge strategic edge. Once you can get into the right strategic groove, you can pretty much take anything the game can throw at you, even on Torment...but yeah, you have to have enough patience to save-load until you know how the fight works.

If you could say exactly where you're stuck, I'm sure there's a dozen people who could tell you exactly how it's meant to be done.

[Harehunter]

This is not meant to be condescending, but if I may quote Jeff himself, from the Introduction to the Exile 1 Hintbook.

Quote:

Welcome to Exile: Escape From The Pit, the hint book.

 

As you are no doubt already aware, Exile: Escape From The Pit (Exile, for short) is a very in-depth, detail game in which many different quests and adventures lead you to many different outcomes. The world is vast and ominous. Finding your way through the game and to its conclusion (yes, there is a conclusion) can be difficult, if not darn near impossible. Thus, this hint book.

 

The hint book contains many sections. It is designed so that you can take the first hint given and not be told exactly what to do and where. If you don’t want to mess around with mere hints, you can also go straight to the final answer.

 

It’s your choice. Odds are, if you have a question, it’s answered in these pages. Whatever you do, don’t be ashamed of looking in this book. Exile is a product designed for fun. If you’re stuck somewhere, and the game is no longer fun, you not only can, you should get an answer. Fun is the only important objective. This book is here to increase it. So go forth, and conquer Exile! If you’re stuck, this book will be waiting for you.

 

Every game he has produced has a hint book, and they all have the same introduction. They are not expensive, and they are helpful. When some encounters seem too difficult, even with the hint books, there are other web sites that offer detailed walkthroughs, maps, items lists, etc. When all else fails, there is this forum where many fans of the games are willing and able to help out.

 

Jeff's point is that these games should be fun. If an encounter is too difficult, reach out for help. That is one reason we meet on this forum.

[Alorael at Large]

The hint books are really walkthroughs. They're great if you can't figure out what the next step is or where you need to go and what you need to do, but they've got very little to say about combat. I don't think Jeff has a huge level of mastery over his own combat mechanics; he makes the games playable, but it's people like Slarty and DV (somewhat) who pick the games apart and find the ways to crush all opposition, or be crushed by all opposition.

 

—Alorael, who also admits to curiosity about how you're playing. What class, what stats, what strategies. If you're doing something or some things that make your game harder than it's intended to be, maybe someone can diagnose it and help. Saying "it's too hard and it drives players away" doesn't give enough information, and there are obviously plenty of players who aren't driven away and can't give that feedback.

[Death Knight]

I am playing a warrior in gene forge 4. I have a kyshk from fire shaping and am currently in souther grotsch. With the game being set on easy, I'm having less problems but thats to be expected.

 

Stats wise, i put my points into strength, endurance, quick action, melee weapons, parry and intelligence for the ability to summon a little.

 

For tactics, like tracer said, there really are not many tactics for a guardian. The only thing i do which you can call a tactic is go for the enemies that cause the most problems first. So for example, if i see a vlish or a artilae along with a couple claw bugs, i will attack the vlish or artilae first. The reason being is that acid damage can be lethal and vlish can be bad too as vlish cause cursed condition. Cursed condition causes -%20 to hit and 4 levels of damage.

 

Other tactics that i use are pretty normal-if i can get rid of one enemy with one shot of my oozing blade, then i will attack them as one less enemy is always better than one wounded enemy.

 

To be completely honest, i don't think my regular tactics are a problem. My problem is that when there is anything close to a boss fight, i tend to lose track of what i should be doing. Sometimes i miss reading a text box and well, you can guess what happens from there.

[Trenton.]

You mean a Kyshakk?

[Death Knight]

Yes, they are pretty deadly so far. Although whats great about them is not their damage but they're insane health.

[Tracer Bullet]

Okay, so you have a combat-oriented Guardian with a Kyshakk whom you tend to put in front because of its health? And you shoot for the artillery before the front line? Great.

What I don't see you mentioning, however, is maneuvers. Properly taking advantage of a wall or a door or even a dumb pillar can often mean the difference between life and death, as the blocked line of sight forces your enemies either to choose a different target or waste valuable action points trying to set up a clean shot. In Grosch, I recommend occupying one of the buildings and using the door as a chokepoint. My favorite fight there involved me splitting my forces and luring an entire enemy patrol into the building with my ranged creations. While the rogues were practically falling over each other to squeeze through the door, I walked up from behind with a pair of clawbugs and calmly disemboweled their support units.

Of course, this isn't what I tried the first time, and I admit that the first time I lost. I guess my final word is that if you lose a fight and then try it again the same way the second time, you're playing the game wrong. Innovation will always carry the day. Anyway, good job on making progress.

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

... when there is anything close to a boss fight, i tend to lose track of what i should be doing. Sometimes i miss reading a text box and well, you can guess what happens from there.

I think this gets a lot of people into trouble. Skipping or skimming text in what is essentially a text-based game is hazardous to your (characters') health.

[Tracer Bullet]

Seconded. Very strongly seconded. Read every word of everything.

 

If this is a habit you need to train yourself out of, play "Spellbreaker" or "Planetfall" or "Blue Lacuna" - the last is legally available for no charge. Have fun!

[Harehunter]

Hello Tracer Bullet. You have touched on a topic in which I get into some pretty intense discussions. I have not played this particular game, but I have completed the Exile Trilogy, and both Avernum Trilogies, with the same basic tactic. The only difference is that in Exile, you have a party of 6 PC's, and in Avernum you have only 4.

I am soon to be beset by those who like to play on the most difficult level possible, and they swear that strict specialization is the key to winning the game at that level. I will not argue that point with them, since I find that the middle or normal difficulty is quite entertaining for me.

 

One last thing to understand. I spent 12 years as an officer in the U.S. Army, Combat Engineers, so my attitudes about how to conduct combat are strongly influenced by concepts such as combined arms teams, and the principles of fire and maneuver.

 

Now as to my favorite tactic. I first played the Exile series, and with a party of 6; 3 fighter/priests (shamen in Avernums definition) and 3 mage/priests (hedge wizards). Like you, I find a great advantage in being able to split into two or more groups, letting my strongest pair take the center and the brunt of the battle, while my other team(s) either act as a rear guard or bring their attack from a different direction. And as for your tactic of using hallways and doors as choke points, that is as sound a tactic as anything out there, which is why it is taught in both military as well as police SWAT units.

 

In Avernum, where you only have 4 PC's, I lost one fire team, but the nature of the games changed so much that it was no real disadvantage. In Exile, some of the encounters were significantly bigger, and that third pair was badly needed.

 

But the main reasons for choosing this particular mix, which most of the folks here will chide me for, I posted on my website under the topic The Mad Monk Squad. I mean, let's face it, when dealing with masses of undead, four priests are better than one. And those for dungeons that drain your magic away, well I'll let you decide how best to utilize your skill points.

[Death Knight]

Since were on the topic harehunter, what would you say to a team of 4 that wants to accomplish that split-team mind set you mentioned. For avernum escape from the pit, would that be 2 fighter/priests, and 2 mage/priests or would you split it up to a team of 3 with 1 person as backup?

 

This is interesting.

[Harehunter]

The 2 shaman, 2 hedge wizard combo always worked for me. But here is another wrinkle; one of the fighter/priests will be stronger and more heavily armed and armored than the other one; I call him Tank. The other fighter priest will have high tool use to deal with traps, and her arms and armor are hand me downs from Tank, I call her Sapper. They also have ranged fire attacks with their priest (equivalent to mortars), and medical skills as well, so as to lighten the needs on a single priest.

 

Then you come to your hedge wizards. One is going to be stronger in mage, call him Arty, short for DivArty. He is also a MASH unit. The other will be stronger in priest, call him Doc, although he is also medium artillery. If they don't specialize to some degree they won't be able to use the higher level spells with the efficacy that will be needed.

 

Now as to deployment, you have a few choices, depending on circumstances:

1) standard formation, frontal assault with both fighters, while the other provide supporting fire.

2) Blitzkrieg with Tank, Sapper watches your six, while Arty and Doc provide what support is needed from the center.

3) Frontal assault with Tank and Arty with a flanking maneuver by Sapper and Doc.

 

If your PC's are strictly specialized they will form a good combined arms team, but only if they act as a single team.

[Death Knight]

could a survival or cave lore be considered an archtype to one of the shaman characters. (A survivalist meaning cave lore to evade hostile encounters.) Might want to make that character the tank as the extra bonus to acid and poison resistance is needed for that role. Just an idea.

[Harehunter]

Nature lore is cheap, and you are right, it confers an advantage to your Tank, since there are monsters that like to use poison in close combat.

[Jerakeen]

There are no cheap skills in AEFTP.

[SamSniped]

When I play or replay AV3, I have the same setup.

Character 1: Archer/swordsman/lockpicker

#2: Tank

#3 Mage with some priest skills and first aid

#4:Priest with some Mage skills and potions

#1 and #2 are up front, #1 using his bow on dangerous ranged users until the enemy is close, #2 cutting down the enemy,#3 and #4 adding suport from the back.

[goblindolf]

Oh how easy we have it these days. OP if only you knew how games used to be!

[Death Knight]

Wow..

 

Why would they make jekyll completely worthless. He has a cain that doesnt hurt anything, all the villagers hurt him and basically exists only to die. Hyde on the other hand, can actually fight. Seems like the makers of that game praise being the bad guy.

[adc.]

Everything is SO true (unless you use the unlimited power of scripting muwhahahahahaha).

-------------

On Avadon, completing one major quest from uhhh who was that? From Miranda consumes a LOT of my time. Especially the hunt the beast thing.

-------------

I pretty dislike the feature in GF1 that my Shaper was soooooo low in endurance. Believe it or not, I have 30/30 health while traveling to Kazg.

--------------

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

I don't even have to go into the other games but they are all unplayable. I really hope that jeff keeps up with the avadon games because as it stands, there are no games that i can play from him right now because i suck.

GO CRUSH THEM, GIVE THEM NIGHTMARES OR DESTROY THEM. GO BURN THEM IN HELL WITH THE POWER OF SCRIPTING mate...

-------------

-Insanity, Rehctawthgin

[Jerakeen]

@Rehctawthgin: It's great that you have so much fun playing with the scripts. I do that myself from time to time, and I don’t think there's anything wrong with it. Whatever lets you enjoy your game.

 

That said, it's getting a little old seeing you clutter up so many threads with recommendations for cheating. This really is not the answer to everything, for everyone. Most people who post questions are looking for advice on how to proceed within normal game play. Constantly pushing cheats may give newcomers the (wrong) impression that cheating is the only way to beat Spiderweb games.

 

Please try to consider whether someone is asking for (or needs) a cheat before you suggest one.

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: Death Knight

Wow..

Why would they make jekyll completely worthless. He has a cain that doesnt hurt anything, all the villagers hurt him and basically exists only to die. Hyde on the other hand, can actually fight. Seems like the makers of that game praise being the bad guy.

See ~15:00 that pretty much sums it up (both explanations) (oh and the cane is used to swat bees)

[MMXPERT-seraph of thermodynamics]

Power of scripting?

 

POWER OF CHEAT ENGINEERING!