Infamy

[Actaeon]

FDR told us (well, our parents... or grandparents) that December 7, 1941 would live in infamy. Well, seventy years later, December 7 gets about as much fanfare as December 8 (1980), November 22 (1963), and marginally more than April 4 (1968). That is to say, not much at all.

 

This leaves me wondering about our perspective. Dates are one thing. The wholesale tendency of American society to value the future over the past is another.

 

As usual, I'd rather open the floor to broad discussion than rant and ask you to respond. Some of you are from countries with a long sense of history. Some of you are Americans that roll your eyes at the way we behave. Still others might see this era as so fundamentally different than those that came before that the old lessons are irrelevant.

 

My question is this: is it possible to learn from the past, be content in the present, and look forward to the future?

[Alorael at Large]

The important of dates is much less than the importance of causes and effects. What's the lesson of Pearl Harbor? Don't be complacent. Stay ready and alert. Be prepared. Well, I think 9/11 has given us plenty of fodder on that front, and technology has made the kind of first strike represented by Pearl Harbor all but impossible.

 

More importantly, is Pearl Harbor forgotten? Not really. Not by anyone who's made it through high school and paid even nominal attention.

 

—Alorael, who isn't so sure America values the future. America, like everywhere else, is very good at focusing on yesterday's problems and fighting yesterday's wars. Facing today is hard. Predicting and fixing tomorrow is harder, especially when it requires sacrifices now to avert problems that can't be felt yet.

[Randomizer]

President George H. W. Bush fought in World War II, his son President George W. Bush couldn't remember the date of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Guess which president looked like a deer caught in a car's headlights when there was another surprise attack on US soil?

 

Some people never learn from history or learn their history. But it shows that people prepare to prevent the last disaster and ignore planning to prevent future ones. Even though the idea of a 9/11 attack was considered back during the Nixon years not much was done since the cost was considered too great to prevent it from happening. What was done was metal detectors to prevent more handgun hijackings that were common in the 1970s.

[Goldengirl]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the unsettling opinion I'm seeing developed here, before I touch on the actual topic of history and its importance.

 

Being 'disaster prepared' in the case of national security threats like 9/11 and Pearl Harbor isn't a good thing, in my understanding. This realist point of view saying that we need to defend ourselves against threats in order to become secure is only the creation of a security dilemma. In order to create security, the realist point of view says, we must identify threats and defend against them; this actualizes the threat, however, by engaging in hostile actions to defend against them. An example of this threat construction is in the nuclear arms race (or any arms race, really).

 

Exactly because of this failure of realist politics to create a lasting security due to perpetual threat construction, it is impossible to be prepared for all the potential national security disasters. Meanwhile, in the quest for security, states can get pretty harsh - as Ben Franklin says, "those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

[Actaeon]

My apologies for using Pearl Harbor as an example. It's just what got me thinking. I'm with you and Franklin on this one.

[Randomizer]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

--- George Santayana

 

While constantly doing pre-emptive strikes to possible threats isn't a great policy as we've seen in Iraq, the failure to act on real threats leads to disaster.

 

World War II was probably worse because Great Britain and France didn't want to fight another war and were hoping that the appeasement policy would curb Hitler's greed. Instead it allowed Hitler time to build up his forces beyond the treaty level when a show of force would have discouraged him.

 

9/11 was a failure to share information about people that were considered a possible threat. Even afterwards the great concern was possible WMD in Iraq and not concentrating in Afghanistan. Now the terrorist system is decentralized and will take decades to defeat. You need to cut off the head of a snake before it spawns more snakes.

[Alorael at Large]

Being generically prepared may not be helpful, but neither Pearl Harbor nor 9/11 happened suddenly and with no warning. Pearl Harbor, in particular, was preceded by months of near certainty of a first strike by Japan, several warnings by military officials that Pearl Harbor was a likely target, a successful U.S. exercise in attacking Pearl Harbor, and at least several hours' unofficial notice of a declaration of war before the attack.

 

There's hyper-vigilance and there's due diligence. Acknowledging the risks of the former, we really ought to push for the latter.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't know that this is all real. How many ultimately imaginary threats are exhaustively investigated? But if the reasons for suspicion are there, the history should be another poke to put in another hour of decryption and correlation to make sure something major isn't being overlooked.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Speaking of preparing for the future to prevent past incidents, there was apparently another shooting at Virginia Tech earlier today. As more information becomes available, hopefully we can see that things were handled better this time and that this will be the last time.

[keira]

A fun fact I learned about Pearl Harbor. They had installed one of the first radar stations there, and the oncoming tide of Japanese fighters (that was detected) was assumed to be a shipment of bombers coming in that same week. Whoops.

 

I assume that's a fairly well-known bit of the battle, but hey, I thought everyone in the US was well-educated on Pearl Harbor and WWII in general...is this just more well-beaten in my school or something?

[Sudanna]

We didn't go into the details of the battle, because frankly they don't really matter all that much.

[Erebus the Black]

My answer to the original question is:

yes, no (unless one is simple or autistic) and no.

[Slariton]

Erasmus, please be careful with your offhand put-downs. Using "autistic" like that is kind of insulting to people on the spectrum.

[Actaeon]

I'd have to admit, though, that if I had to choose one person who seems most content in any given present, it's my autistic brother.

 

Edit: I suppose it's possible I have mild Asperger's myself, but after growing up around my severely disabled brother, I feel too bloody normal to bother checking.

[Tirien]

As someone who is autistic (Aspergers), I'm almost offended by it. Then I laugh as it's somewhat true for me and some people I know. And then I log back off and go back to lurking so I don't start spamming like I once did.

[Tyranicus]

Personally, as an autistic person, I do find that statement slightly offensive, but I have heard much worse, both here and in other places, so I'm not really up in arms about it.

[Sarachim]

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Personally, as an autistic person, I do find that statement slightly offensive, but I have heard much worse, both here and in other places, so I'm not really up in arms about it.

Having heard worse is no reason not to get up in arms.

[Tirien]

Originally Posted By: Sarachim

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Personally, as an autistic person, I do find that statement slightly offensive, but I have heard much worse, both here and in other places, so I'm not really up in arms about it.

Having heard worse is no reason not to get up in arms.

Are you saying we should get up in arms over every offhand remark that doesnt really offend us that much?

[Dantius]

People on the Internet sure get offended easily. It's like the offhand comments of a random stranger who lives thousands of miles away who you interact with for five minutes a day is all that matters to us.

[VCH]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

People on the Internet sure get offended easily. It's like the offhand comments of a random stranger who lives thousands of miles away who you interact with for five minutes a day is all that matters to us.

I find internet insults more hurtful than the ones delivered in person. I don't know why that is, but it is. Perhaps, it's the lack of facial cues or context that makes the insult worse. You don't know what the person really meant or didn't—whether they are really a jerk or not.

[keira]

Originally Posted By: Dantius

interact with for five minutes a day

Speak for yourself. I spend more time at this place than i do in reality

That being said, while the comments are not really necessary, it's prolly best to just develop a thick skin and deal with it. I mean, SW is a fairly nice place, but things will still pop up from time to time. At least it's not like most forums out there, full of prepubescent teens crying "[censored] lol" like some unholy swarm of high-pitched birds.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Sarachim

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Personally, as an autistic person, I do find that statement slightly offensive, but I have heard much worse, both here and in other places, so I'm not really up in arms about it.

Having heard worse is no reason not to get up in arms.

No, but sometimes you have to pick your battles.

[Sarachim]

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Originally Posted By: Sarachim

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Personally, as an autistic person, I do find that statement slightly offensive, but I have heard much worse, both here and in other places, so I'm not really up in arms about it.

Having heard worse is no reason not to get up in arms.

No, but sometimes you have to pick your battles.

Why? It's good that Alorael told Erasmus not to do that again, but shouldn't we be explaining why what he said was hurtful and unacceptable? Maybe "battle" is the wrong word, but just letting these things go is wasting a potential teachable moment.

[keira]

Originally Posted By: Sarachim

Originally Posted By: Tyranicus

Originally Posted By: Sarachim

Personally, as an autistic person, I do find that statement slightly offensive, but I have heard much worse, both here and in other places, so I'm not really up in arms about it.

Having heard worse is no reason not to get up in arms.

No, but sometimes you have to pick your battles.

Why? It's good that Alorael told Erasmus not to do that again, but shouldn't we be explaining why what he said was hurtful and unacceptable? Maybe "battle" is the wrong word, but just letting these things go is wasting a potential teachable moment.

I think he's prolly figured it out and that'd be stating the obvious.

[waterplant]

I saw on a doco last night that the autism rate in the US has increased by 20% per year for the last 20 years whereas most other psychological conditions increase by around 3% p.a. in occurrence.

 

Not a watertight stat - but what is on the internet?

[Sarachim]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

I saw on a doco last night that the autism rate in the US has increased by 20% per year for the last 20 years whereas most other psychological conditions increase by around 3% p.a. in occurrence.

Not a watertight stat - but what is on the internet?

Probably a diagnosis issue. Everyone who knew us both says my grandfather was just as autistic as I am, but I was diagnosed and he wasn't just because of when we were born.

[Lilith]

also it's been easier for autistic people to get laid ever since the dotcom boom so more of them have been reproducing and having autistic kids

 

i am not even joking, that is a possible explanation that has been seriously advanced by actual epidemiologists

[The Ratt]

Also, doesn't autism have several forms that can vary from imperceptible to severe? That could be part of why there are so many.

[waterplant]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

also it's been easier for autistic people to get laid ever since the dotcom boom

Perhaps I should consider becoming autistic...

[Randomizer]

Originally Posted By: waterplant

Originally Posted By: Lilith

also it's been easier for autistic people to get laid ever since the dotcom boom

Perhaps I should consider becoming autistic...

If you have sufficient money than you can be almost any type. Holding out a wad of cash overcomes the need to have any social skills.

Strip clubs did real well in Silicon Valley before the bubble burst.

[Erebus the Black]

Wow, this is one heck of an unintended topic drift I caused here.

First off, no offense meant, I myself am on the spectrum and couple that with ADHD (which makes bringing thoughts into writing sometimes very hard) and 28 years of no meaningful friendship makes me a very gloomy person. Again no offense meant.

 

Secondly it's Slarty whom reprimanded me, not Alorel. Keep your facts straight people (unless slarty and alorel are both alts for the same person).

 

In my perspective humans cannot be content in the present because as part of our older animal ancestors we always need to be in a state of strife, constantly fighting and bickering even over the most [forgot the word, maybe I'll edit it in later] maters, this makes me very sad, but alive I am and live I shall.

(saying more is a slippery slope I would rather avoid).

 

A to looking forward to the future, there is only one sure thing (unless BioGenetics will find a solution), and that is death. Death of myself, death of society, death of this world. The entropy of nature aspires (I think that's the right word) to infinity until (as in the restaurant at the end of the universe) all the stars will "die" out and a cosmic state of a "cold" thermal equilibrium (I think that's the right term) will remain.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: VCH

I find internet insults more hurtful than the ones delivered in person. I don't know why that is, but it is. Perhaps, it's the lack of facial cues or context that makes the insult worse. You don't know what the person really meant or didn't—whether they are really a jerk or not.

I've determined that the answer is almost always that they are really a jerk, so I've stopped worrying about it.

[Actaeon]

Originally Posted By: Sarachim

Originally Posted By: waterplant

I saw on a doco last night that the autism rate in the US has increased by 20% per year for the last 20 years whereas most other psychological conditions increase by around 3% p.a. in occurrence.

Not a watertight stat - but what is on the internet?

Probably a diagnosis issue. Everyone who knew us both says my grandfather was just as autistic as I am, but I was diagnosed and he wasn't just because of when we were born.

My understanding is that "autism" is something of a catch all term. Twenty years ago, Asperger's wasn't even on the radar for diagnosis, and only severe cases (which would not really allow you to post on a forum) were labelled as such. Now, society has found a place to lump the incurable introverts and label them as abnormal.

Given that several very high functioning members of an incredibly bright social group have identified themselves as such, I can't help but feel that we're looking at a subset of population as much as a disorder. Not to say that wouldn't be challenging in such a socially complex and demanding society, but this place and time is rather different from those that came before the Industrial Revolution.

Edit: You guys make me look like an optimist, and I don't like it. I have concluded that most people are not, in fact, jerks. Hanlon's Razor: never assume malice when stupidity will suffice.

[Alorael at Large]

Psychologists are fairly unified in believing it to be a real disorder. It's not just introversion, or even severe introversion; it requires deficits in language and communication and stereotyped actions. In fact, a diagnosis of autism requires impairment. Pathologically severe introversion alone is more likely to be diagnosed as avoidant or schizoid personality disorder.

 

But autism disorders are also a spectrum. Asperger syndrome may be a distinct disorder, or it may just be a sort of mild form of autism. As a spectrum, the line at which the threshold between normal and disordered is drawn is really an artificial distinction. (It's worth noting that in the US, an Asperger diagnosis also requires impairment in daily life.)

 

Just because autistic spectrum disorders aren't binary doesn't mean they aren't real. We use the term descriptively rather than mechanistically, but it describes a real syndrome.

 

—Alorael, who also notes that even some people with autism reject the label of disorder and wish to be labeled as simply different from "neurotypicals" instead. That's more a battle over unnecessary stigmatization, but it underscores the possibility of clinically significant difference even without slapping pathology on the distinction.

[Actaeon]

Thank you for during my research for me. I don't deny the existence of autism. It's where they draw the line between normal and impaired these days that confuses me. There are many things that can impair day to day life that we do not label as a disorder.

 

I can not speak to this directly. I do not quite meet the requirements for an autism diagnosis. I am thankful for that, as I value most of the criteria I don't meet.

 

Instead, I am responding from a general distrust of the "disorder" concept where it comes adjacent to what we label as "normal". Homosexuality used to be considered a disorder. Certainly, being gay in a predominantly straight society has an impact on one's life, but we no longer consider it an impairment, just a difference.

[Erebus the Black]

However there is one major difference, there was never (that we know of) a society of autistic people while there was an active and thriving society of gay people (and pedophiles, may they be horribly smitten) in classic Rome.

[Alorael at Large]

The disorder of homosexuality came in part from the belief that homosexuality was wrong, yes, but it was also supported by (bad) data showing that homosexuals were more likely to be criminal, have comorbid conditions, and desire treatment. (That last, of course, stemmed substantially from desire to avoid social stigma, not any downside inherent in homosexuality.)

 

There have been and are communities with high gay populations, popular areas for gay socializing, and general gay social networking. Autism has an inherent barrier to that: as a disorder that affects social functioning and social interaction, autistic people are less likely to seek company or feel comfortable in it, especially low-functioning autistic people. There is an autistic community, though. It's younger, and it's primarily online, but it very much exists and has real, in-person events.

 

One problem with Asperger syndrome is the penchant for people who are introverted or socially anxious and intelligent to self-diagnose. Another is the amount of misinformation on the internet that leads to many misunderstandings of autism/Asperger and its manifestations. Do you know non-impaired people with autism diagnoses? Or, for that matter, non-altered people—the goal of treatment, of course, is to limit or remove impairment, but that doesn't necessarily change the condition, just its management.

 

Distrust of seemingly nebulous or threshold disorders is common, and it's another layer of stigma. Autism is a useful diagnosis because there do seem to be a number of associated and meaningful symptoms that can be treated. There are clear-cut cases of autism and clear-cut non-autistic people. There's a blurry area in the middle, but that is a diagnostic problem, not a definitional problem.

 

—Alorael, who will go ahead and say that he's not autistic. He does not, as far as he knows, have any offline friends with autistic spectrum disorders. He also has no conflicts of interest to disclose, no financial stake, et cetera.

[Slariton]

I'm locking the topic. I appreciate the thoughtfulness everyone here has brought to the discussion, as well as the posts people have made. But some of the posts are going in directions that Jeff doesn't want on this forum, particularly not for a new game release.

 

Peace.