Missing the way things used to be

[Relaek]

Hi all, I'm not new to Avernum, but relatively new to the forum.

 

I've been a fan of Spiderweb's games since I was a kid. I liked the way the beginning of the Avernum series went, and Geneforge as well. Geneforge 5 is totally awesome. But, I can't help but miss the way Avernum 3 and BoA were. I've never been able to get into A4 and A5 because they're changed so significantly, and in a negative way in my opinion. I think that the zones worked well for Geneforge, but using that system, as well as the odd choppy movement when walking seems to take away from the original Avernum games.

 

Not to mention tons of other changes that I felt were unnecessary and pulled the series away from my liking. Does anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one who misses the way things used to be?

 

Hopefully that ramble is legible. Thanks for your opinions.

[Acky]

Jeff partly changed the systems because he was tired of using the same old thing and wanted an "improvement", depending on how you look at it.

 

You're not alone. Almost everyone who was into A1/3/BoA universally dislike the change. Since I came up on Geneforge, I like the different engine more then the old one. It seems smoother and less blocky.

[Dikiyoba]

You'll find plenty of agreement with the sentiment that the original trilogy is better than the new one. You'll also find plenty of people who think the new trilogy is better than the old one and plenty of people who like Exile better than the original Avernum trilogy. It all depends.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Marak]

I'm split, I think I speak for most people in saying that A4 is the weakest entry in the series, but I've been having an absolute blast with A5, to the point that it's vying with A2 as my favorite Avernum title.

[Randomizer]

A4 had some improvements in the game engine, but the plot was a weak version of A3 and the seamless world was too small. Now A5 had a fresh plot and with new lands to explore the world didn't seem as small.

[tehpineapple]

Originally Posted By: Relaek

Does anyone else feel this way, or am I the only one who misses the way things used to be?

YES! OMFG, yes! I Don't think this could be ranted about enough! A1,2,3, and BOA were all amaaaaaaazing games. A4,A5 I couldn't even be bothered to finish the demo area, seriously.

But I guess It's kind of like how Super Mario 3 was such an amazing game, and how nobody makes good side-scrollers like that anymore. Everything's changed and "updated".

I say BOO to change! I'd be happy if every new game ever made was just a clone of A2/3 or Fallout 2, just with new plots.

[Marak]

I'll admit playing the A4 demo was extremely awkward at first: I'd never played any of the Geneforge games and was so used to moving around the Avernum world with the keypad that clicking on things took a long time to get used to.

 

However, as things went on and I got into the plot (which is, in the beginning, suitably mysterious to keep you going) I found myself intrigued at comparing the new "seamless" Avernum (and it's cities) to the old "indoor/outdoor" Avernum of the original trilogy.

 

Not to mention that the whole endgame of A4 was frustrating and disappointing.

Click to reveal..

I mean, seriously, you destroy all 3 Shades and the reaction you get is: "Oh, ho hum, you killed the Shades. Don't expect any reward other then a new level of *random high-level spell*, though. Oh, and the cities you liberated? They don't really care either. And don't bother the King about it, such trivial things like destroying all three Shades and un-enslaving thousands of people is beneath his notice."

 

Wait, what? And now you want me to chase the Big Bad down thru a series of trapped tunnels and confront them in their fortified lair? Grrrrrr, stupid, lousy, ungrateful...

 

But I digress. The Geneforge/new Avernum engine has grown on me. I especially love the way A5 handles secret rooms - those buttons are a brilliant way to do it. The return of "height" to the maps is a huge plus, as well. The game feels much more alive when you get a description box popping up to tels you about the view from the top of the hill you just climbed when you did, in fact, walk up a slope on the world map to get there.

 

Oh well. For me, it's never been about the engine the game runs on. For me, it's all about enjoying Jeff's writing style, the way character leveling and building is handled, and the phat loot (of course).

[tehpineapple]

Originally Posted By: Marak

Oh well. For me, it's never been about the engine the game runs on. For me, it's all about enjoying Jeff's writing style, the way character leveling and building is handled, and the phat loot (of course).

^ Well, I definitely have to agree with that. With that in mind, I'm going to try and force myself to play through the A4 demo again.

I think I know why I quit so quickly too, does anyone else have a problem with the game seriously lagging when the inventory screen is open? I'm on windows, btw.

[Marak]

Yes, and it gets worse the more items your characters have in their backpacks. Whenever I'd go back to town with bags full of loot, it would take me forever to sell it because my mouse cursor was so laggy I couldn't "tag" the "sell item" button(s).

 

Yet another reason A4 is the only full version of Avernum that I own that I haven't played more thru more than once

[Serene Tempest]

I have mixed feelings. I started on A2, and I both miss the outdoors and think A2/A3 had stronger plots than A4/A5 (though A5 was definitely a big improvement). I also find myself missing the older, wilder Avernum as opposed to the crowded one crawling with treasure hunters from the surface.

 

On the plus side, I've found the newer games to be more challenging - after A2, I ran A3 with only one mage/priest to try and make it more challenging, and it still ended up being mostly a cakewalk. Also, the characters are much less one-dimensional than they were in the earlier games.

[Mistb0rn]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

You'll also find plenty of people who think the new trilogy is better than the old one and ... like Exile better than the original Avernum trilogy.

This. Avernums 1-3 were actively painful to try to play, I prefer Exile over them any day. I haven't tried Avernum 4 yet, but what I've seen so far of Avernum 5 is very much improved, definitely more enjoyable.

[Golgoth]

I didn't like in Avernums 1-3 how you had to click a differnt button to talk to people and how you had to "look" to find out what's in a container.

[Øther]

Originally Posted By: tehpineapple

I say BOO to change! I'd be happy if every new game ever made was just a clone of A2/3 or Fallout 2, just with new plots.

I think that usually, games would get better with most kinds of change. Adding new things, and making new engines are ways to draw in new customers, and even though a lot of people that have played the games before will get mad, only some will stop playing, since. So the person who makes the games (Jeff, in this case) will have a larger group of people who may buy his games, and will only lose a few of the people who have played his games before.

Also, I disagree with that part about Fallout 2. It was an awesome game, but but had a seemingly limitless number of bugs. My car still hasn't decided to reappear yet.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior

Also, I disagree with that part about Fallout 2. It was an awesome game, but but had a seemingly limitless number of bugs. My car still hasn't decided to reappear yet.

There are unofficial patches that fix some of the bugs, although you have to be careful because lots of them add in new stuff that's even worse.

[Øther]

I have tried a few, but in the end I just go back to my game without any of those patches, it just seems better that way (usually).

[feline monstrosity]

Congratulations. Jeff hates you.

[Golgoth]

I like most of the changes Jeff has made to his games, all of them seem to save time for the player and make the game smoother.

[Erebus the Black]

yet I still miss the fact that humanoids used to differ in more than color

[feline monstrosity]

Um.. they still do? Check out the screenshots, the Slithzerikai look pretty lizard-like to me, and the Nephilim look as feline as they always have.

[Milla]

Perhaps they means the other humanoids such as gremlins look like goblins with a paint job.

[Marak]

Palette swaps are easier on Jeff's wallet but I agree it's a little disappointing sometimes.

[Erebus the Black]

zombies=goblins=gremlins=wisps=shades=(imps?)=goblin fighters=(prbly)hobgobs=trogolodites

 

wraiths=wights=ghasts

 

I'm just glad that drakes!=dragons

[Alorael at Large]

Um, what? The ones that appear in the games don't all look the same. The ones that don't appear in the games could look like anything, as they don't appear.

 

—Alorael, who also finds the presence of hobgoblins worrisome. There aren't any in Avernum. There never have been.

[Erebus the Black]

kobolds?

[Toby-Linn]

That was Nethergate that had the kobolds.

 

I like all of Jeff's games, and have been happy with all the changes so far. My favorite change has been to the inventory, when stuff in your packs don't effect your weight....that is awesome. I hate how in Avernum 1-3 you can only pick up so many things before you get loaded down.

 

For example, after a big fight with tons of dropped items, decisions, decisions! Should I pick up the iron arrows or the iron chainmail? should I try to pick up the leather armors? quick, let's juggle the items among the characters so that we can squeeze more items in! And of course, everything disappeared once combat was over so it's not like you could come back. And god forbid a character die, then you'd have to reload the game for sure, because there's no way the other characters could pick up all their dropped items.

[Alorael at Large]

No, Nethergate has no kobolds. BoE has them among the default monsters, I think, but I'm not sure they've ever been used.

 

—Alorael, who would like to remind you that Spiderweb's games are only almost generic fantasy. They're a few elves, orcs, and dwarves short. And hobgoblins. And kobolds.

[The Mystic]

Originally Posted By: The Slave of Duty

No, Nethergate has no kobolds. BoE has them among the default monsters, I think, but I'm not sure they've ever been used.

—Alorael

There's some in VoDT; beyond that, I don't recall seeing them anywhere.

Originally Posted By: Toby-Linn

My favorite change has been to the inventory, when stuff in your packs don't effect your weight....that is awesome. I hate how in Avernum 1-3 you can only pick up so many things before you get loaded down.

Seconded, on the grounds that I'm probably the ultimate pack rat when it comes to Jeff's games. In Dikiyoba's fanfics, when I was first described in Episode 3, it was a surprisingly fairly accurate representation of my playing style. I'll steal from almost everyone in the game, and sometimes I carry around so much junk that I need to hire a team of porters.

[Toby-Linn]

Ah, thanks guys, I was thinking of the Fomorians...which look like goblins, if I remember correctly.

 

Edit: Fixed your double post Mystic!

[Alorael at Large]

Still not quite. They look like the ogres of later Avernums.

 

—Alorael, who still misses those peach goblins. They were good goblins.

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: 'Twerewolf dog

They're a few ... short. And hobgoblins.

So you mean no mad wizard had tried to do crazy experiments on goblins to see what comes out or to improve his/her minions and came out with hobgoblins.
How untypical...

[Erebus the Black]

Oh, and the creatures at the bottom of the comic strip I'm linking (trying not to draw attention from search engines that will lead to lawsuits) are product identity and trademarked and still used in the game :

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html

[Lauren CW]

I definitely miss the original Exile series, with the original graphics. They were the first RPGs I ever played, and I loved them. I prefer their spell system to Avernum for sure. Heheh, anyone remember starving your adventurers? Too many times I'd waste my last gold piece identifying some bronze piece of crap and not be able buy them food, but that was part of the fun. It seemed like more of a real role playing adventure, having to worry about where my next food was coming from (Mertis, mostly, if I could avoid the skeletons and asps) and slightly more realistic features that have been given up for the sake of convenience.

[dave s]

The only thing I really miss is the lack of spell level significance. I loved getting level 3 of spells and it being game changing.

[Erebus the Black]

I rather preferred the exile method where you didn't have to waste mana(sp) on fireball when all you wanted was to fry a single goblin

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

E3 was fun for the notable amount of spells available.

i loved being able to kill monsters with odd spells and save mana rather than using fireball and kill

[Archmage Brock]

I loved E3 for the field effects, flight, Identify, Simulacrum, and...wait for it...wait for it...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd....MindDuel!!!!!

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

i liked hitting people with firestorm (i think it was called firestorm) which was a field effect that stayed for a while causing damage

field of blades was also cool

[The Mystic]

You're thinking of Conflagration. Firestorm was like Fireball, only with a little more damage and a slightly larger radius.

 

And I still say that Divine Thud is one of the coolest names for a spell, ever.

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

i thought conflagration was the larger fireball.

 

divine thud is waay cool though.

[Earth]

Spell Name: Conflagration

Casting Cost: 4

Spell Range: 8

Description: Creates Flame fields over a fairly large area.

Rating: 2/5

Comments: Sort of like an upgrade to Flame Cloud. But I still hate this spell as it is weak and a waste of a turn.

 

from boe.

[Lilith]

conflagration is an awesome spell, whoever wrote that didn't know what they were talking about

[ĐªгŦĦ Єяŋϊε]

flame cloud! thats the one i meant anyways.

it is a one space attack that just keeps on giving damage. it is a cheaper attack that fireball, especially in the beginning

[Men are from Slars]

Conflagration is OK, but with decent Int I find Fireball is usually a better use of SP. Flame Cloud on the other hand is by far the best single target damage spell early in the game.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Leadendy

Conflagration is OK, but with decent Int I find Fireball is usually a better use of SP.

Fireball doesn't trap low-level enemies in the middle of a damage zone that they refuse to walk out of, and it doesn't stop Doomguards from splitting.

[Earth]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/918402/28270

 

see yourself who wrote that what I posted.

[Lilith]

who is paul buzbee and why should i care

[Earth]

by lilith: conflagration is an awesome spell, whoever wrote that didn't know what they were talking about

[Lilith]

i really don't think you're getting the point of what i'm saying here