A4 - dont like summons?

[BrTarolg]

yes i AM playing a 4 person party atm....

 

consisting of one tank, and 2 mages <and one priest>

 

anyways ive found that most summons are ofc.. useless.

 

however, have also found, that shades are extremely useful. in big fights, or "boss fights" - when hasted, blessed, protected etc. <things you should ALWAYS have before boss fights> - they deal on average 40-50 damage per turn each, and double curse - aswell as tank - and are immune to those damn freezing particles that many bosses cast.

 

not only that, greater shades are REALLY strong, and have a HIGH to hit percentage.

 

although they not may seem much - against nicoduas <zomgz impossible battle> - i didnt use a single potion during that battle <cept for a few energy potions - no invuln potions though> - before i got into the "hes about to cast a spell" - i summoned 8 shades <4 of which were greater shades> and then mass haste - bless etc. - through all previous metheods i didnt stand a chance against him, but this time i outright killed him before he even cast his demon spell

 

does anyone else use shades?

[The Lurker]

Quote:

Originally written by BrTarolg:
yes i AM playing a 4 person party atm....

consisting of one tank, and 2 mages <and one priest>

anyways ive found that most summons are ofc.. useless.

however, have also found, that shades are extremely useful. in big fights, or "boss fights" - when hasted, blessed, protected etc. <things you should ALWAYS have before boss fights> - they deal on average 40-50 damage per turn each, and double curse - aswell as tank - and are immune to those damn freezing particles that many bosses cast.

not only that, greater shades are REALLY strong, and have a HIGH to hit percentage.

although they not may seem much - against nicoduas <zomgz impossible battle> - i didnt use a single potion during that battle <cept for a few energy potions - no invuln potions though> - before i got into the "hes about to cast a spell" - i summoned 8 shades <4 of which were greater shades> and then mass haste - bless etc. - through all previous metheods i didnt stand a chance against him, but this time i outright killed him before he even cast his demon spell

does anyone else use shades?

Yes. Divine Host is in my opinion extremely powerful in most battles (and Summon Shade, the spell you're talking about, is pretty good too). The Vengeful Shades are very powerful, and the Divine Shades are simply awesome. In fact, once I got it, I used it for almost every battle. I didn't use it for the last gauntlet due to lack of SP and the super-long battles, but Divine Host was my main spell for the Vyvnas-Bok battle.

I also tend to use other summon spells from time to time, even with my 4 PCs party. They're useful if used wisely, especially Arcane Summon.

[Randomizer]

The only summon I liked was summon shade. They are immune to cold and charm spells.

 

As a singleton I used them versus Nodicuas to slow him down and keep his demon buddy from attacking me. I tried to use them to block the chitrach near Fort Remote from getting out. You have to keep summoning them since they wander off.

 

Didn't like divine host since you only get one and he kept dying too quicky at the end.

[Alorael at Large]

Unfortunately, every kill made by your summoned minions earns you no experience. The more you summon the weaker you are.

 

Granted, XP isn't exactly a problem in A4, but every little bit helps.

 

—Alorael, who is in part prejudiced by earlier games in which summoning was entirely useless except when a smokescreen of cannon fodder was necessary.

[The Lurker]

Quote:

Originally written by Euphoriasis:
—Alorael, who is in part prejudiced by earlier games in which summoning was entirely useless except when a smokescreen of cannon fodder was necessary.

I think the Demons' Firestorms can be useful in Blades of Exile. As for previous Avernum games, you've got to be kidding. Arcane Summon can be extremely powerful at high levels (EDIT : especially in Avernum 3), and Capture Soul and Simulacrum are wonderful.

[BrTarolg]

excuse me? since when was summoning ur-basiliks and daemons useless in e3?

[-=microphage=-]

On the topic of shades. I rarely use them. They've been helpful in some situations though. I have had them get in the way and block party's exit and had to kill them. (is there a way to un-summon? I may have missed it)

 

Anyhow, if nothing else it's something to spend coins training on later in game when you have lots of loot and coins.

[Fort]

I think you missed his point. Regarding Divine Host, I think it is unfair that in the previous Avernum games this has been the highest level priest spell, described as "awesome" in the documentation, and required a huge amount of spell points when it summons shades that are relatively useless by the time you learn the spell. It was positively ridiculous, and the Arcane Summon spell for the mages was far better at the highest level.

 

I just never saw the reason why priests could not have had a good Divine spell before.

[The Lurker]

Quote:

Originally written by Garrison:
I think you missed his point. Regarding Divine Host, I think it is unfair that in the previous Avernum games this has been the highest level priest spell, described as "awesome" in the documentation, and required a huge amount of spell points when it summons shades that are relatively useless by the time you learn the spell. It was positively ridiculous, and the Arcane Summon spell for the mages was far better at the highest level.

I just never saw the reason why priests could not have had a good Divine spell before.

That I agree with. Divine Host was pretty useless in most previous Avernum games (however, Blades of Avernum allows you to summon Fierce Shades at high levels, which are quite strong).

EDIT : And there's no way to unsummon creatures. They should disappear after a while, though.

[Micawber]

Quote:

Originally written by BrTarolg:
excuse me? since when was summoning ur-basiliks and daemons useless in e3?

Since always. It's a complete waste of sp, ap and xp.

[BrTarolg]

psh deamons, guardians and basiliks rule. they are key as distractions - just cast them and let them approach the enemy first

[Fort]

The selection of high level arcane summons is not bad at all, but it is the randomness of it that makes it useless. I dare say it would be overpowered if you could select to summon ice hydras against the fire golems or the elder aranea whenever you wanted.

 

The Daemon spell back from Exile was actually pretty good in the midgame if you could afford the spell points. It never hurt to have an extra firestorm here or there combined with a resistant meatshield.

[Ephesos]

Shades were great utility summons in A4. There were some fights when they could just do ludicrous amounts of cold damage to things you couldn't scratch (golems, etc). After all, Ice Lances and Smite really don't pack the same punch as a Divine Shade.

 

That said, the rest of the A4 summons were pretty awful.

[BrTarolg]

oh well i guess i see where youre going with the "lost xp" thing.

tbh ive never really had ANY exp problems before so.. meh.

[Zummi]

ALL IN ALL..

SUMMONS SUCK IN A4..

I THINK IN THE LAST AVERNUMS

SUMMONS WERE QUITE MORE

POWERFUL..

DIVINE HOST SUMMONS

A HANDFUL OF SHADES..

I THINK...

[Ephesos]

ITS GOOD TO KNOW THAT YOU VALUE YOUR OPINION SO HIGHLY AS TO KEEP CAPS LOCK ON WHILE TYPING IT.

 

... but generally speaking, it's very annoying, so please refrain from doing it in the future.

[Lilith]

I assumed he was writing some kind of poem. Like e.e. cummings, only in reverse.

[Micawber]

Summoned creats are just stupid, that's all. They're supposed to be on your side, but they are more of a liability than an asset:

• they get in the way, stopping you from reaching the enemy you want to kill;
• summoned spell-casters have a tendency to summon other, weaker creatures, flooding the battlefield;
• summoned creatures have a talent for using the least effective attack on the enemy (e.g. fire breath on a haakai);
• in Exile, summoned spell-casters infallibly cast area of effect spells all over your mages and other delicate characters;
• in A4, summoned creatures are likely to attack the enemy you have so carefully dazed and wake it up just in time so it can slaughter you;
• you waste AP summoning them when you could be either healing or attacking & having done so, you then feel obliged to let them kill at least one enemy, which draws out the battle even further.

Lost experience is just the icing on the cake.

[Ephesos]

Then again, there's always the fun of summons that summon summons that can summon more summons which can summon more summons to summon summons capable of summoning more of the first type of summons...

 

Well, you know what I mean. It involved infinite chains of vampires, back when it was possible. But A4's weak summoning has since eliminated that fun possibility.

[Fort]

It seems to me that the vampire strain has been becoming more and more powerful as each new game comes out. In E1 they could cast what, Summoning? In BoA they have fireblast and can summon themselves indefinitely.

 

I remember quite vividly the only difficult battle I had while playing the original scenarios with my 2 PC party: the golem garden battle in Khoth's Castle. The demon golem had about 200 health left when he summoned 3 vampires. I killed the golem and then got summarily slain.

 

But truly, I think the most fun can be had when you can successfully charm enemy Arcane Summons. I mean seriously, a single strong Control Foes spell can immediately make those 4 mutant lizards your friends.

[Zummi]

sorry about that..

well..summons in A$..

will be better if you..

can control the summon..

ryt??

even a useless mutated lizard..

can be a gr8 asset if the player..

is the one controling it..

still..shades r weak..

i only use them for distractions(since im a singleton..)..

nothing more nothing less..

would be better if you..

can summon the 3 shades plaguing..

formello/silvar,almaria, and blosk/dharmon..

now that is a summon spell..

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Valcrist:
well..summons in A4..
will be better if you..
can control the summon..
ryt??

I believe this is just about the entire concept behind Geneforge.

Quote:

would be better if you..
can summon the 3 shades plaguing..
formello/silvar,almaria, and blosk/dharmon..
now that is a summon spell..

That would be an interesting spell, particularly if it was the shade in its uncontrolled form... a sort of gambling spell that could burn you in long run (or even the short run). Why don't we get unwilling summons more often? (Besides the fact that it'd be more work to code)

Of course, if it just summoned the shade in a 100% friendly context, then it'd make the game boring.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Ephesos:

 

Quote:

Quote:

Originally written by Valcrist:

well..summons in A4..

will be better if you..

can control the summon..

ryt??

I believe this is just about the entire concept behind Geneforge.

Well, it's more complicated than that, but you could get away with saying that. And there are plenty of "unwilling summons."

 

Dikiyoba.

[Zummi]

i agree..

i agree..

wonder if jeff..

will bring back..

simalcrum in A5..

i miss it so much..

(dont we all do?)

summons suck at A4!!!

[Maimonides]

Quote:

Originally written by Valcrist:
i agree..
i agree..
wonder if jeff..
will bring back..
simalcrum in A5..
i miss it so much..
(dont we all do?)
summons suck at A4!!!

You-are–not—Emily—Dickinson.

[BrTarolg]

psh you KNOW you want to cast capture soul on that order mage 1337 times till you capture it.

[Ephesos]

Can I get a spell-check on topic 612? That's a spell-check on topic 612. Thanks.

 

But seriously, I like the new Simulacrum (well, the BoA one). And the new Capture Mind is more useful anyway.

 

I'd like it more if Jeff would implement some changes to the spell system in general... for instance, upping the power level on some of the higher level spells, but requiring a full turn or two to cast the spell. So, somewhat similar to the mechanics of Nociduas' time-consuming über-demon spell. At least that would make the BoA version of Simulacrum make sense.

 

Failing that, Soul Crystals were kinda fun. And they were an endless source of discussion fodder.

[BrTarolg]

soul crystals were great! i loved summoning hakaai and rakshasha

 

though it did puzzle me a bit -

 

in A2 when you did arcane summon, you summoned first a vampire, then a demon, then an eyebeast

i found that even though eyebeast is lvl 3, it is weakest of the lot :-/

[Venomousblade]

Quote:

Originally written by Valcrist:
i agree..
i agree..
wonder if jeff..
will bring back..
simalcrum in A5..
i miss it so much..
(dont we all do?)
summons suck at A4!!!

Shade of Starmans Ghost?

Umm..
Err..
Buh..
Duh..
D'oh..

[Aran]

Quote:

Originally written by Ephesos:
Can I get a spell-check on topic 612? That's a spell-check on topic 612. Thanks.

Well, what do you expect in the forum of a game whose target demographic consists of nine-year-olds?

Edit:

Quote:

Base to Eph: 612? What's the forum number? We need the forum number! Over.

[Micawber]

What on earth do they teach in school these days?

[Nepharim]

I think he reads like a dying asthma patient speaks. This is joke nor insults, because I have breathing problems myself.

 

To the point... Aside of the Simulacrum spell I never used any summoning spells, I always have a fighter, a fighter/archer, a priest and a priest/mage.