Geneforge Infestation - Changes from Mutagen

[Mechalibur]

Randomizer made a great resource for changes from the original series here, but I wanted to include a list of content that is different specifically from Mutagen as there are a surprising number of changes and balance tweaks that Spiderweb made. This isn't completely exhaustive (I won't mention stuff like a weapon now has one more damage die), but anything significant should be on here.

 

Main Character

 

• Inherent Mental Resist lowered from 75% to 50%
• Main character can no longer be charmed - if you would be affected by charm you are instead stunned for one round
• Guardian has lower starting combat skills
• Main Character starts with 1 rank in Minor Heal, Firebolt, and Create Fyora. These count as one level of training, so trainers can only train you one more time in these skills

 

Equipment

 

• Weapons now have an inherent 3% accuracy bonus per weapon level. This massively increases weapon attack accuracy compared to Mutagen.
• Tranquil Batons now inflict 3 turns of Slow instead of Fear (against bosses, I actually consider this a buff as very few have notable curse resist)
• Purifying Blade can now eat more canisters (up to 10 total).
• Rod of Succor now cures conditions in addition to healing.
• Rod of Battle now gives War Blessing, Shield, and Haste.
• Swapping weapons in combat now costs 1 AP (used to be free).
• Small changes to various pieces of equipment. Robes give a bit less magic resist, some equipment that boosts creations now affects different stats (like increasing creation mental resist instead of intelligence), Reaper batons have a higher level.

 

Spells

 

• Airshock now deals cold damage instead of energy.
• Wrack now is a fast spell, but only targets a single enemy.
• Essence Shield is now a Blessing Magic spell instead of Healing Magic.
• Mental Magic and Blessing Magic now requires 1 point before learning the entry spell (Daze/War Blessing) instead of 0 like in Mutagen.

 

Creations

 

• Leadership now lowers control penalty (first point and every other point appears to lower it by 1).
• Shaping Skills now lower control by 2 for creations of that type instead of 1. That means increasing a shaping skill will never result in a lower control level.
• Cockatrice no longer has a control penalty and has higher base hp/level.
• Flash Shield, Flash Blessing, Vulnerability Field, and Fragility Field (Artila and Vlish abilities) are now fast actions (6 AP) instead of full actions.
• Increasing a creature's stats now increase them by 2 at a time instead of 1.

 

Enemies

 

• Pylons now go into repair mode when dropped to 0 hp and will eventually recover. You *really* aren't supposed to fight them in most situations.
• Enemies that inflict terror now almost always only inflict 1 or 2 rounds of the debuff.
• Boss enemies appear to have resistance to damage over time effects (Stuff like Acid, Burning, or Shock will deal closer to 5% damage than 15%).

 

New Content

 

Randomizer covers it better here, but as for the new content compared to Mutagen...

 

• New Weapon Shaping system allows weapon-based skills that can be trained, provided you have enough combined melee/missile skills.
• New tier 4 creations, as well as the Stalkthorn, a battle creation.
• New spells for each magic skill, totaling 6 spells for each.
• You can now get 2 levels of training from trainers around the world. Canisters aren't the only means of progression any more.
• Lots of new equipment.
• There are some helper NPCs that can join your party. They don't level up and have fixed abilities, but they're extra help. You can dismiss them and they'll return to where you recruited them if you want them back in your party later.

Edited March 27 by Mechalibur

[Slawbug]

Amazing list, thanks.

 

Do shaping skills still lower the control penalty for different-typed creations at half the rate?

 

EDIT: Oh no... your poor artilas 😞

[Mechalibur]

Yeah. So a point in Fire Shaping will get you -2 control for fire creations and -1 control for other creations. Control is pretty much a non-issue, I actually wish it was harder to reduce control level since you don't even need to think about it any more.

Edited March 27 by Mechalibur

[Randomizer]

It's only early in the game that you really notice creations going rogue. They are more likely to just get terrified from the damage and run away.

[ultra112]

tbh I think the recruitable companion should have been given the level up capability to help keep up with the threats. 

[Mechalibur]

Then the game would have to be balanced around them. They're a nice bonus when you get them, but the lack of level ups prevents you from having a full army of units with no essence upkeep, which I think is a good thing.

[Randomizer]

Most of the recruitable companions are meant more for fun than usable. There are some that are helpful like Zora in the Drypeak Mines that have useful abilities, but Jeff made sure they are only for a limited area.

[alhoon]

I concur that gaining so much control from Shaping skills + leadership is too much. 

[Slawbug]

It does seem a little silly.  Control wasn't even a big deal in Mutagen on Torment, but it wasn't completely irrelevant at least.

 

Thinking about it... I bet, though, that there's a subset of semi-casual players (but not playing on Casual) who had intensely negative reactions (like "ragequit and write an angry review") to creations going rogue for a turn in the middle of combat when they didn't expect it.  So I wonder if this is in response to that.

 

Seems like it could have been gated more by difficulty level, at least.  But oh well.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

17 minutes ago, Slarti said:

It does seem a little silly.  Control wasn't even a big deal in Mutagen on Torment, but it wasn't completely irrelevant at least.

 

Thinking about it... I bet, though, that there's a subset of semi-casual players (but not playing on Casual) who had intensely negative reactions (like "ragequit and write an angry review") to creations going rogue for a turn in the middle of combat when they didn't expect it.  So I wonder if this is in response to that.

 

Seems like it could have been gated more by difficulty level, at least.  But oh well.

As an experienced but not hard-core player (Not prone to rage-quitting, but never tempted to but the difficulty above "normal" either) I definitely struggled with control in Mutagen.

 

Mutagen had some "difficulty gates" like when you just got past the Awakened village and the game got quite hard for the not-too-adept.

 

I responded by making more Fyoras and then lost control a lot, I then responded by trying to raise Fire Shaping... and found that this did not actually increase the control level at all. (Because the gains from fire shaping were negated by the increase in creation level.)

I found this VERY confusing and counter-intuitive, especially once I found out that raising a second type of skill DID boost control.

 

With some info from folks here and on the Steam forum I figured it out, and by the mid-game control ceased to be an issue. But I don't think most players would investigate so much, so I definitely think boosting the control gain from shaping skills was the right move, because it makes the system intuitive. (Want to control your Fyoras? Boost fire shaping!)

 

But also making leadership boost control might have been overkill, yeah. I mean, it's not like leadership was a bad skill before this change....

[alhoon]

If I could choose, I would put Leadership as +1 to control any creation, Shaping skill +1 control to any creation. 

I really like the "if you bump Shaping skill by +3, and your creations jump 3 levels up, they are much more likely to break out of your control" but in that case, I would prefer a choice of whether to level my creations or not. 

Again, this quite complex process is my "this is how control would be good to work" without taking into account OTHER aspects of the game like "after increasing shaping I should go to each of my creations and check their levels" 

 

For a "best type of experience" combined, I would go with Leadership+1, Shaping skill+1 with a warning to not go too far the first time your creation goes to weak control. 

[Slawbug]

I think boosting control for casual/normal difficulty was definitely the right move.  Maybe even one step up.  But for Torment I think it was unnecessary.  Still, not really a big deal.

 

Speaking of creations, the Mutagen creations are mostly identical in Infestation, but here are some subtle changes that took place:

- Reduced essence cost for Iron Clawbugs, Cryodrayks, and Battle Betas (which were all quite weak in Mutagen) (...and still aren't great)

- Minor boost to base level (mostly +1) for both Artilas, and for Iron Clawbugs, Cryodrayks, Battle Betas, Ur-Glaahks, and Cockatrices

- Minor stat boosts (+1) to all 3rd-tier creations

- Boost to base HP for both Drayks, and to Battle Alphas, Glaahks, and Cockatrices

- Boost to HP multiplier for regular Artilas and both Vlish - Vlish went from x0.9 to x.12.  NB Searing Artila did not get this

- Ornk AoE switched to a worse version (bhahaha)

[Mechalibur]

I'm starting to suspect Ornks may not be the strongest creation.

[Slawbug]

DoT sources - is this list missing any?  (thanks for the additions!)

 

Shocked:

- Weapon Shaping - Essence Lash

- Magic Shaping - Glaahk passive (unreliable)

 

Burning:

- Battle Magic - Essence Purge

- Fire Shaping - Drakon/Ur-Drakon ranged attack

- Volatile Thahds and Pyroroamers, with upgrade, on explosion (lol?)

Acid:

- Magic/Battle Shaping - Rotghroth, Rotdhizon, Searing Artila, Iron Clawbug, Cockatrice (unreliable)

- Searer

- Weapon Shaping - Searing Spray

- Spray Crystal

 

Poison:

- Magic/Battle Shaping - Artila, Searing Artila, Clawbug, Iron Clawbug, Ornk, Stalkthorn
- Searer (low level)

- Poison Baton

[Randomizer]

Jeff wanted more creation use in his games because that's what sets Geneforge apart from other games including is own. The creations were tweaked through out beta testing to make them more usable especially the much maligned battle creations.

 

Slarti - you left off Weapon shaping Searing Spray for Acidi

[Mechalibur]

Acid - Spray Crystal and Searing Spray (at level 2+). There's no acid baton.

 

Shocked - Glaahk passive Shocking Skin, maybe? Never actually tried it, not very reliable since they need to be hit by melee. Additionally Essence Lash will only inflict it at level 2 or higher.

 

Burning: Essence Purge needs to be level 2, for what it's worth. So Ur-Drakons can't inflict it with their version of Essence Purge

 

There's an ice DoT in the files called Frozen, but it doesn't actually seem to be possible to inflict.

Edited March 28 by Mechalibur

[ultra112]

perhaps Jeff left the Frozen DoT out due to time constraint?

[Randomizer]

10 minutes ago, ultra112 said:

perhaps Jeff left the Frozen DoT out due to time constraint?

it's more likely that he forgot that he included it in his game. There are other instances previous games where he put stuff in that near got red. West case was a gaze left trapped in a room in GF4.

[Slawbug]

46 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

Jeff wanted more creation use in his games

I mean, this is nothing new, creations have been either the strongest or equivalent-to-the-strongest option, by a mile, in every Geneforge game.  The only real competitor was broken Parry in OG2.  Daze was extremely good from OG3 on but it paired too well with creations to really count as competition.

[Val Ritz]

An additional change from Mutagen, Brodus Blade was female in Mutagen, male in Infestation. Glad to hear that the Magus Complex is providing more modification services than just increasing your magical capacity!

[Mechalibur]

Learned Darian and Rhakkus have also changed genders. I doubt it's an intentional change, this kinda stuff happens all the time in Spiderweb games (like the Avernum dragons)

[Slawbug]

I think Learned Darian was always a woman in the originals.  I'd call that a Mutagen error that Infestation corrected.

[Mechalibur]

Probably the same with Rhakkus then. I think he was consistently male in the originals, but female in Mutagen.

[alhoon]

Rhakkus was female in Mutagen? I missed that. 

Edited April 7 by alhoon

[BenS]

Do we know why the Drayk/Cryodrayk sprites are (mostly) so tiny in this game? For a while I thought I was just meeting the runts of the litter, or maybe it was a design choice. Maybe even a problem w/ my computer. But if you look at the 4 Cryodrayks at the end of the entrance hall in The Radiant College...you'll see at least 1 that appears noticeably smaller to the naked eye compared w/ others. Various such single encounters in the game appear to me to be the same issue. Weren't these creatures taller/stockier in prior games? When your Fyora towers over one and you can reach down to pet it on the head, the awe-level when seeing a drayk...lessens. I'll admit it's changed my normal Shaper preferences, which are Fire Shaping.

 

If this needs to be calved off into another discussion, feel free.

[mikeprichard]

It's possible to mod the fyoras to be smaller (which I've done based on tips from alhoon in both G1 Mutagen and G2 Infestation). I'm confirming a few things, and was planning to post more about it within the next couple weeks in the topic at https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/30152-miscellaneous-mod-related-discussion. In principle, it should therefore also be fairly simple to mod the drayks etc. to be larger, if that's your preference.

[alhoon]

3 minutes ago, mikeprichard said:

It's possible to mod the fyoras to be smaller (which I've done based on tips from alhoon in both G1 Mutagen and G2 Infestation). I'm confirming a few things, and was planning to post more about it within the next couple weeks in the topic at https://spiderwebforums.ipbhost.com/topic/30152-miscellaneous-mod-related-discussion. In principle, it should therefore also be fairly simple to mod the drayks etc. to be larger, if that's your preference.

hmmm? What more to post? As a note, I have put Drayks to 125 scale, and Cryodrayks to 140% scale. I also increased the size of Rots too. 

[mikeprichard]

Just confirming a couple points I'd asked about in that topic (the current final posting) re: which other lines may need to be added to edit all cryoas etc.

[alhoon]

Stalkthorn: I didn't expect a quest like the Cockatrice but honestly, I have not seen a Stalkthorn in the game and I saw a lot of people willing to train you in them. There is no "ohhhh, this is a marvelous / horrid thing!!!" or anything. At least yet.

Is there a quest involving Stalkthorns that I haven't seen (I am early in the game)

[Randomizer]

The Stalkthorn only appears as a player creation in training and canisters until I think Inner Gaza-Uss where it gets summoned in one fight.

 

Edit - Just checked and it wasn't used there.

[alhoon]

45 minutes ago, Randomizer said:

The Stalkthorn only appears as a player creation in training and canisters until I think Inner Gaza-Uss where it gets summoned in one fight.

 

Edit - Just checked and it wasn't used there.

That's a bit disappointing... 

[alhoon]

I found the tomb of Rydell in Ellirah's tomb. Wasn't he the boss of the Obeyers in GF1-M? Did he come to light after the Shapers purged them all? From what I remember from my discussions with Rydell - and the horrible HORRIBLE book he had, Rydell would simply accept death, if the Shapers said so. The book he had, I still remember, had something like his deepest and most "selfish" wish is for a Shaper to tell him he has done well. That was it: No money, power, comfort. Nope. A Shaper to pat him on the head and tell him "good boy" as if he was a dog. 
Thus, I am very surprised to see his tomb as "Came to wisdom too late". I simply didn't expect him to ever do. 
 

Khobar died... in the "long March". 😢I liked Khobar. 
Dreet... probably was someone I should remember. I don't. 

 

I have also encountered Eko Blade and the Obeyer that was in charge of preserving the worthless notes in Sucia. 
Obviously, Pinner is in GF2-I too. 

 

Anyone else? 

Edited April 18 by alhoon

[alhoon]

BTW, I just noticed: where are the obeyers in GF2? (O-GF2 or GF2-I) ? I don't mean the servants, I mean fully smart and aware Serviles that agree with the Shapers that they should remain enslaved. You know, the biggest Servile faction of GF1-M, where we're told that more than half the Serviles in Sucia are Obeyers. 

 

First time I played GF2, I hadn't played GF1 so I didn't know of the obeyers. 

Now I go around and I talk to Serviles that are foolish and don't know better. Not Shapers that choose to be "Servants" and are even ready to kill other Serviles over this. 

I understand that with the Shapers around, most Obeyers would be dead - as they were still considered rogues. But in GF1-M, there were a couple of Obeyers that were Awakened and changed their mind. 

I have seen just one "Obeying-leaning Awakened" that when you talk to him and ask something he (or she? I don't remember) goes "Yes Shaper, I will Obey." The ones that are happy to see you and run to you are those that are cornered in mines or swamps by a dozen Rogues, about to die.

And I have not seen a single Servant Servile that is actually smart, able to talk properly and is willingly a Servant (i.e. an Obeyer). 

[Mechalibur]

There's dialogue about it (Jaffee in the Magus Complex) - the Obeyers integrated into the Awakened after realizing the Shapers would never accept them.

[Val Ritz]

Yeah, it's one of the real tragedies of Sucia Island we don't get to see. The way events shook out, the Council wasn't interested in any intelligent, but compliant serviles. Final Sanction was invoked; everything on that island needed to burn.

 

Dayna (formerly Learned Dayna) is the story that really breaks my heart. Her whole life, devoted to preserving what amounted to outdated and useless warehouse inventories, on the off-chance it might please the Shapers. Not only did she learn her purpose was a lie, but the ones she idolized saw her as anathema.

[Broken Mind]

I feel bad, because no matter how pro-servile I am in GF1, I always lie and tell her those notes are important (even knowing otherwise) just so that she will buy them. I don't even need money in that game, and I still do it.

[earanhart]

That's one of the things in all SpidWeb games with a reputation system that I really appreciate. The rep points are so generous that even first time through I don't feel forced to take EVERY decision going either way. I can mix and match as I want. Because how many Awakened Shapers will tell her her entire life (and that of her predecessors) have been devoted to completely useless and worthless activities? Likewise, even the most even-tempered of good people are gonna be tempted to squash the GIFTS eggs, because GIFTS . . .

[alhoon]

4 hours ago, Val Ritz said:

Yeah, it's one of the real tragedies of Sucia Island we don't get to see. The way events shook out, the Council wasn't interested in any intelligent, but compliant serviles. Final Sanction was invoked; everything on that island needed to burn.

 

Dayna (formerly Learned Dayna) is the story that really breaks my heart. Her whole life, devoted to preserving what amounted to outdated and useless warehouse inventories, on the off-chance it might please the Shapers. Not only did she learn her purpose was a lie, but the ones she idolized saw her as anathema.

yeap, I read that story. But I assumed SOME Obeyers would exist along the Awakened. 

 

  

4 hours ago, Broken Mind said:

I feel bad, because no matter how pro-servile I am in GF1, I always lie and tell her those notes are important (even knowing otherwise) just so that she will buy them. I don't even need money in that game, and I still do it.

Me too!!! I couldn't tell her the truth! I let them waste what precious resources they have in thinking that this is important because there's not a neutral way, of "Ohh, how great! You did very well. Now, as a Shaper I will quickly peruse those very precious notes you kept, and decide what is too dangerous to be kept, what is outdated and what you should keep and preserve. Here is a cookie!" 
Then, I would burn most of the crap, but leave 3-4 boxes of stuff so she keeps feeling important. I would tell her how much better things are now for me the Shaper because of the accurate numbers of potatoes we brought from the mainland 142 years ago and that their vigil will help bring peace to the Island, but unfortunately, some things would need to burn. 
 

Edited April 19 by alhoon

[Val Ritz]

If I'm spitballing, I think any remaining serviles with strong Obeyer tendencies would have gone to the Barzite lands. It gives them the chance to admit that they're different from other serviles, while still directly serving a "real Shaper." Issue being, it didn't take much canister use for Barzahl and his buddies to discard their sympathies for the serviles. To pull a phrase from the G1 ending, they'd find themselves "ill-used," and ten years is plenty of time for the most loyal to die in lab accidents or gazer testing or what have you. Because we can always make more, right?

[alhoon]

13 minutes ago, Val Ritz said:

If I'm spitballing, I think any remaining serviles with strong Obeyer tendencies would have gone to the Barzite lands. It gives them the chance to admit that they're different from other serviles, while still directly serving a "real Shaper." Issue being, it didn't take much canister use for Barzahl and his buddies to discard their sympathies for the serviles. To pull a phrase from the G1 ending, they'd find themselves "ill-used," and ten years is plenty of time for the most loyal to die in lab accidents or gazer testing or what have you. Because we can always make more, right?

Barzhal had "servile sympathies" ? Lying Zackary the Deceiver saved a little servile Kid from obliteration. Barzhal? I don't remember anything at all he ever did for the Serviles. I think he was always about himself - not even about Zackary and himself. He planned to use Lying Zackary the Deceiver from the start; at first for his connections and experience and then as a front. 

Edited April 19 by alhoon

[Val Ritz]

1 hour ago, alhoon said:

Barzhal had "servile sympathies" ? Lying Zackary the Deceiver saved a little servile Kid from obliteration. Barzhal? I don't remember anything at all he ever did for the Serviles. I think he was always about himself - not even about Zackary and himself. He planned to use Lying Zackary the Deceiver from the start; at first for his connections and experience and then as a front. 

 

That's kind of an oversimplification. Saving the serviles was always a means to an end, that much is true. They needed workers who had expertise in maintaining the old Shaper equipment of Sucia Island, and the serviles had developed those skills. Barzahl might never have been nice to them, but there was a time when he worked together with them and saw them as useful. He and the Takers developed the drakon together, his people made the plants that terraformed the Medab valley, etc.

 

By the time we meet him, though, the canisters have stripped away everything but his core motivation, power through self-modification, but that's the endpoint. For a while he knew how to be diplomatic.

[Mechalibur]

Every single named Obeyer that returns in G2 is now Awakened, I believe.

[alhoon]

6 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Every single named Obeyer that returns in G2 is now Awakened, I believe.

Could it be that the few Obeying Obeyers stayed with the Barzhites?