GF2-I - Changes to Game from Original/ Remaster (Spoilers)

[Randomizer]

Changes to Geneforge 2 - Infestation

 

Significant changes are in boldface type.

 

This remake changes everything except the general story and map. Everything was revised so don't assume anything and read descriptions and instructions. There are lots of new things like Weapon Shaping to improve weapons with trainable skills. The canisters are no longer the same ones in original game locations and Jeff changed about 10% of the items so they have different bonuses.

 

There are still the three classes: Shaper, Guardian, and Agent, but they work a little differently than any of the 5 original Geneforge games. All classes gain experience the same way with you no longer getting slightly less experience penalty for having creations or having nearby NPCs making the kills. So there is no penalty for having a large number of creations. Jeff encourages you using creations. And some fights are almost impossible as a solo character. Some places in the game you may not survive on the hardest difficulties without creations. A few expert areas require a large number of creations to deal with all the attackers or just to shield your character. It really pays to have some Leadership to recruit creations or NPCs to join you Some are better than your character at this point in the game and will make it much easier. An example is Zora in Drypeak Mines for her buffing ability, Battle Roar. Ciphar in Western Mines will kill almost everything in the Saltmarsh if you let him heal between fights by just staying in a safe area.

 

You still do better if you specialize in your class abilities because it costs less skill points. Costs per level will rise as you gain levels in an ability or skill. So eventually even in your strong class skills the cost will require more than one experience level to gain a new level in a skill.

 

Besides 4 new zones (Everfrost Mine is two complete levels), you have little extra levels within a zone like below ground storage in Drypeak .

 

One major change is your to hit chance is based on your character’s level and modified by armor penalties. Skills in the attack type and relevant related attributes like strength, agility, or intellect no longer improve your to hit chance. Instead they give a bonus percent increase in damage or duration. You still increase damage as you gain levels.

 

Resistances are from armor and items with a hefty mental resistance bonus at the start (50%). Armor and resistance are capped at 90%. Armor now works like Queen’s Wish in that each piece has a physical and a magical value.

 

Casting the lowest spell in each category no longer needs that magic skill: firebolt,, war blessing, and heal.

 

No more action point increasing items or spells. Maximum 8 action points per round and you can get more than two attacks per round due to Spell Mastery reducing action point cost..

 

Please remember to use the “t” command to turn on the text console at the screen’s bottom to see messages about damage, to hit chance when you miss, and other useful information.

 

 

Skills

 

Strength - increases melee weapon damage by 5% per point, increases carry capacity of equipped armor and weapons

Agility - increases missile weapon damage by 5% per point, gives 2% per point chance of evasion. acts faster in combat

Intellect - increases all spell effects by 5% per point, increases spell energy gained per level

Essence Mastery - increases essence gained per level

Endurance - increases health gained per level

 

Combat Skills:

Melee Weapons - increases melee weapon damage by 8% per point, 3% chance of attack using less action points, can use more powerful melee weapons (maximum required for best is 10)

Missile Weapons - increases missile weapon damage by 8% per point, 3% chance of baton attack using less action points, can use more powerful batons (maximum required for best is 6

Quick Action - gives 4% chance per point of weapon attack using fewer action points

Evasion - gives 4% chance of evasion against single target attacks

 

Magic Skills:

Battle Magic - can cast more powerful spells, +8% per point bonus to effect (damage)

Mental Magic - - can cast more powerful spells, +8% per point bonus to effect (duration)

Blessing Magic - can cast more powerful spells, +8% per point bonus to effect (duration)

Spellcraft - gives 3% bonus per point to all spells, restores 3% per point spell energy and essence, 3% per point chance of using less action points

 

Shaping Skills (increasing will affect current creations):

Fire Shaping - can make more powerful Fire creations, each point increases level

Battle Shaping - can make more powerful Battle creations, each point increases level

Magic Shaping - can make more powerful Magic creations, each point increases level

Healing Craft - can cast more powerful spells, +8% bonus per point

 

General Skills:

Leadership - increases number of dialogue options and gives some mental resistance to creations to avoid going rogue (maximum dialogue is 9)

Mechanics - use fewer living tools to open containers and door or disarm traps (maximum trap is 10 and machinery is 11)

Stealth - reduce the distance that creatures can see you but increasing game difficulty level decreases the time between checks

 

 

Fire Shaping:

Create Fyora - at fire shaping skill  1 - Cryoa - at skill 3

Create Roamer - at skill 1 - Pyroroamer - at skill 3

Create Drayk - at skill 2 - Cryodrayk - at skill 4

Create Drakon - at skill 3 - Ur-drakon at skill 5

 

Battle Shaping:

Create Thahd - at battle shaping skill 1 - Volatile Thahd - at skill 2

Create Clawbug - at skill 2 - iron Clawbug - at skill 3

Create Battle Alpha - at skill 2 -Bbattle Beta - at skill 4

Create Rotghroth at skill 3 - Rotdhizon at skill level 5

Create Ornk - at skill 1

Create Stalkthorn- at skill 2

 

Magic Shaping:

Create Artila - at magic shaping skill 1 - plated artila - at skill  3

Create Vlish - at skill 1 - Charged vVish skill 3

Create Glaahk - at skill 2 - Ur-glaahk - at skill 4

Create Gazer at skill 3 - Eyebeast skill level 5

Create Cockatrice - at skill 1

 

Battle Magic:

Firebolt - fire damage at single target

Searer - energy damage at a single target with poison bonus, acid at level 2 (need Battle Magic level 1)

Essence Lance s  - cone of  energy damage (need Battle Magic level 2)

Quickladh - spray of energy t foe (need Battle Magic level 3)

Airshock - circular area of energy damage with chance of stun (need Battle Magic level 5)

Essence Purge - spray of searing energy and does fire damage for multiple roundsat level 2  (need Battle Magic level 6)

 

Mental Magic:

Daze - circular area to daze foes (need Mental Magic level 1)

Wrack - circular area to make foes have  -15% to hit and damage, chance to slow to lose turn (need Mental Magic level 2)

Dominate - causes foe to be charmed (need Mental Magic level 3)

Delirium - stronger version of daze and harder to resist (need Mental Magic level 4)

Wrack Wave - wrack on all targets in circular area (need Mental Magic level 5)

Mass Madness - all targets in circular area get different mental effect (need Mental Magic level 6)

 

Blessing Magic:

War Blessing - +!0% to hit and damage for 4 turns (need Blessing Magic level 1)

Protection - -10% chance of being hit and reducing damage (need Blessing Magic level 2)

Speed - hastes to give chance using fewer action points (need Blessing Magic at 3)

Essence Shield - creates a shield that will absorb damage from next attack or until it fades away (need Blessing Magic at 4)

Mindshield - improved mental resistance for party near caster (need Blessing Magic at 5)

Mass Energize - gives all blessing, shielding, and hastes (need Blessing Magic at 6)

 

Healing Craft:

Minor Heal - heals damage

Cure Affliction  - reduces rounds of damaging status and mental effects (need Healing Craft level 1)

Group Heal  - real for party near caster (need Healing Craft level 2)

Regenerate - causes target to regenerate some damage each round (need Healing Craft level 3)

Heal - heals more damage in target than minor heal (need Healing Craft level 4)

Mass Restore - heals damage and cures affliction for all  nearby (need Healing Craft level 5)

 

 

Weapon Shaping

 

Skill required is combined melee and missile training skills .

 

Guardians get trained by Shanti in Guarded Lunge

 

The first three skills can be trained in Drypeak Warrens.  Brodus Blade in East Medab teaches first five.

 

The first two buff your character while damaging your target. Very useful for beginning agents and guardians when they do better with physical weapons for damage.

 

Guarded Lunge - Skill 1 - does 25% more damage, shield (2 turns per level), target is vulnerable (2 turns per level) - damage bonus +10% per level of skill

War Infusion - Skill 2 - bless and speed PC when target at enemy (4 ruins per level)

Guardian Push - Skill 3 - - knock back 3 spaces and chance of slow (+10%) for 3 turns, Stun (+10%) 1 turn

Lifedrain - drains some damage to heal you (20% of damage)

Chain Lightning - Skill 5 - Does decreasing energy damage to nearby foes (5 spaces apart) and on harder difficulties will hit your creations  and friendly NPCs. Each level adds 15% bonus damage.

Searing Spray - Skill 6 - Sprays acid in 3 space radius around target and can last for many rounds.

Essence Lash - Energy damage and wrack on target. Base 30%Shock for 3 turns at level 2.  increase in damage and each additional level increases it 15%.

Guardian Roar - Skill  - Terror

 

 

The basics stats are Strength, Agility, Intellect, and Endurance have been clarified with Essence Mastery added to separate Spell Energy from Essence. So Shapers want more Essence Mastery to have more essence for Shaping Creations, Guardians want Strength or Agility depending upon whether they are melee or missile fighters, and Agents want Intellect for more spell Energy for spells.

 

Attack skills: Melee Weapons, Missile Weapons, and Battle Magic do +8% more damage per level over base damage. For physical weapons Quick Action can also reduce action point costs and Spellcraft does the same for spells. This means you have a chance after acting to get a second action.

 

Evasion reduces the chance of a foe making a single target attack from hitting you. It doesn't affect area of effect attacks.

 

Shaping skills are really different in that when you increase a level in the appropriate Shaping skill or gain a level in that creation type, an existing creation automatically goes up a level. No more need to compare an existing creation with a new creation to decide which is better. You now have greater control over designing your creation at a cost of extra essence you can improve strength, agility, endurance and give your creation an extra level up to 5 levels over a basic creation, and special attacks for each creation type. You can add on extra active attacks like area of effects or leaps, and passive abilities like haste or spines. Active abilities have cool down periods before you can use them again. You can also add these abilities later to existing creations when you have more essence. You still need to absorb and create when you want to remove them.

 

Leadership when high enough will give you additional dialogue options that can give you experience and avoid fights or doing quests to join a faction. Picking the peaceful resolution through leadership means you will no longer get experience by killing creations. Some places fighting will give you more experience and let you get to loot. Other places the leadership option is better for experience or avoiding a major fight. The most used in game is 10. Leadership now adds to your ability to control creations so they don’t go rogue from taking damage.

 

Mechanics still means using less living tools to open doors and containers. You now get experience points for opening things and disarming some traps. You also now click on a simple yes/no instead of each individual living tool. The most for a trap is 12 and you can get by with significantly less. Mechanics 6 and Tinker’s Gloves for +2, Infiltrator’s Vest for +1, Infiltrator’s Cloak for +1, and Infiltrator’s Ring for +2 will work well if you don’t mind fighting the few box mines that summon monsters, a few traps, and not being able tp activate some power spirals.

 

Stealth has replaced Luck. It helps to avoid fights by letting you sneak around foes to cross a zone without fighting. Some zones will only be cleared to cross freely by killing things. So if you want to go through them on the World Map you need to at least meet the killing condition or sneak through each time. The time between checks to see if creations notice you decreases with difficulty level. Some creations can allow you to pass closer than others before they react especially if you are both in motion. Jeff made pylons more difficult to encourage stealth to get past them. Stealth doesn’t help as much with a large party of creations.

 

Shaping creations now allows you more customization to give them things that your foes have. Remember when you absorb a creation to go back to a town or an essence pool.to get essence back. Also if creations get damaged you may lose control of them and they briefly get charmed status where they attack your party.

 

You can train in Weapon Shaping and the combination of your levels in melee and missile training skills will let you use more of them. Each one uses spell energy and essence so you are limited in how often you can use them when starting out. Really useful to guardians and agents.

 

 

Character Building

 

Jeff said it is possible to build a character that can’t complete the game so remember there is a cheat code to change where you used you skill points. Type shift and d, then enter “retrain” in the box that appears. This will let you fix building mistakes. You won’t lose points from canisters, books, and bought from trainers.

 

The easiest build is a Shaper with lots of creations. Pick a Shaping type and Essence Mastery for most of your skill points and let your creations do the fighting for you. Individually they won’t do as much damage as a Guardian or an Agent, but with 4 or more of them they will do more and most have area effect attacks. Higher tier creations will do more damage, but the essence costs will mean fewer of them,

 

A Guardian will do plenty of damage and Evasion will help avoid single target attacks. However he does physical damage so you need creations. Certain weapons,  or Weapon Shaping for magical damage. Also switching between a spray baton for area damage and another range attack will use up 4 action points. Some missile weapon skill is recommended since there are more unstable creations that explode doing damage when they die.

 

An Agent starts off weak, but after about 6 zones will do plenty of magical damage. Weak on making creations, you will rely on spells and physical attacks against some foes. The advantage is no wasted action points when shifting attack types. Raising Battle Magic and Spellcraft for almost all of your skill points. Also in the beginning rely on sword, javelins, and batons to do more damage than you spells.

 

For all characters the following applies for non combat skills.

 

The maximum Leadership needed in the game is 10 and Girdle of Leadership gives +2 and Infiltrator’s Ring give +2. You can easily get by with less.  I found getting 6 will give you almost all extra dialogue options until near the end game Taker Lands.

 

The highest trap is Mechanics 12. You can get through the game with much less and there are plenty of living tools available to open harder doors and containers.

 

Stealth is helpful, but not needed unless you want to do the Pacifist Challenge or avoid some fights.  It’s best to avoid monsters and slipping by mines if you lack the mechanics to disarm them.

 

 

Combat

 

Combat is essentially the same except you may get extra actions with enough Quick Action or Spellcraft. Speed gives a 35% greeter chance of being hasted and using less action points. Also even on torment difficulty monsters do less damage per attack and there are few that can kill in one shot. However this game is easier with having creations and harder to play as a solo character at harder difficulties.

 

Use the most damaging attack when possible. Since your to hit chance will usually be the same it pays to compare between weapons and spell damage against the enemy’s armor and resistances. You can right click on an enemy to see health, armor, resistances, and status effects. For instance in the Shaper Lands, javelins usually do more damage than firebolt against the fyora.

 

Basic attacks now get a 3% bonus to hit per level of the weapon you are using. Melee/missile characters should not have huge missing problems. Jeff improved the item level of higher end batons and high quality magic weapons to make them more competitive with the canister-related swords.

 

The game is programed to be much smarter in fighting. Pick off a foe on the edge of a group will usually cause the others to come after you instead of ignoring the attack.

 

Switching between melee and missile attacks costs 1 action points, Swapping a weapon from your backpack costs 4 action points. Using a pod, spores, or wand uses 5 action points. You never know in advance when you will get to use fewer action points from Quick Action or Haste.

 

Increasing the game difficulty level to Veteran gives creation foes 2 extra abilities and at Torment gives them all 4 extra abilities. Some of these extra abilities make the fights significantly harder. However you can get most of them for your own creations.

 

Cure Affliction only uses 6 action points and now removes mental effects in addition to poison and acid. It can be used to regain control of a rogue creation that has Charm status.

 

Monsters respawn in some zones so don’t assume even if you cleared a zone that it is completely safe to wander around wounded. The upside is that if you are near leveling up that you can find a few creations for those needed experience points.

 

Monsters heal if given enough time or you move away from them and end combat, so don’t give them the chance.

 

Weapons have changed:

Acid baton is now Tranquil baton and does slow for 3 rounds.

Submission baton is now Spray baton and does a cone area of effect of physical damage. However it needs to be targeted on a foe.

Crystals and wands no longer get missile weapons’ bonus and their effects are different. However they have a better chance of hitting. Icy does a cone of physical damage, spray does a circular area of acid for 3 rounds, airshock is a circular area energy damage with stun for 1 round, blast does a circular area of effect of fire damage.

Wands now remain in your backpack and act like crystals.

 

Armor, meaning chitin, chain mail vest, and breastplates, all give stun resistance at the cost of lower to hit chances for the better armors.

Robes give more magical armor and less physical armor and give hostile effects resistance to non-physical attacks.

 

Mental attacks are very useful when they work. Daze will prevent them from attacking until they are damaged. Wrack will reduce their to hit chance by 15% and give a chance that they will lose a turn. Terror works best when they can’t flee out of your attack range so you can kill them while they are too terrified to fight back. Dominate will let you charm a foe to fight for you and make your enemies attack them instead of you.

 

Gloves of Spell Mastery is a new item where you have a 20% chance to still have 1 action point left so you can do another attack. Sometimes if all you cast are spells, you can get 4 attacks in a round.

 

 

Creations

 

Fire Shaping tends to be the best Shaping type both because you can find canister and codex for fyoras early in the game and all fire creations have range attacks. There are decent area effect attacks and the roamer’s Fiery Wind doesn’t harm your party on higher game difficulties. Average health, but some can get hardiness against damage. They also have cheaper essence cost for base and upgrades.

 

Battle Shaping creations have higher health, but some lack range attacks. They act more like melee Guardians in combat, but can get nice extra abilities. This is the only one where all 4 tiers can be learned without joining a faction at Loyalist Camp.

 

Magic Shaping creations have the worst health, but better base resistances to damage. Some have the ability to buff the party and curse your foes. Glaahks have nice area effect attacks like terror and shockwave (stun). These creations work well, but cost more than Fire Shaping, however you can take advantage of searing artila using innate haste and no cool down period between special attacks.to spam acid attacks for extra damage on later rounds The gazer and eybeast have an area attack that won’t harm your party even on torment difficulty. Also they have some really nasty passive attacks that you will hate when used against you.

 

 

Junk Bag

 

You can remove items from the Junk Bag only in town so be careful on using it if you might want an item or removing it before sell all to a merchant. Store items in your backpack where it doesn't count towards your weight limit for encumbrance. Or consider dropping extra items for later in a cleared zone. Also items with no value will usually sell if you sell all from the junk bag.

 

Items that can stack will stack automatically in the junk bag.

 

 

Selling

 

You get one sixth the value of an item when selling it. When items stack, make sure the item's value divides evenly by 6 to get maximum value. More items have no value than previous games. There are lots of things that are only worth 1, but drop them in the Junk Bag because it all adds up. Also this I a closed economy so the shops will run out of money before you buy what you want in training. Sell enough and you can drain all the shops of their money.

 

Money is capped at 30000.

 

 

Training

 

You start with one level in firebolt, minor heal, and create fyota. Shanti will teach you one level in a spell or skill at the end of the first zone. Agents get daze, shapers get create thad, and guardians get guarded lunge.

 

You can only buy a maximum of 2 levels from training. It doesn’t matter what order you buy or read a codex or canister to gain a level.

 

 

Experience, Codexes and Canisters

 

You get less experience points (XP) as you gain levels compared to the monster's level and expected quest level. Quests usually give the most experience. Eventually the Shaper Inner Crypt is the only place where you might get experience killing creations.

 

Unlocking a door or container instead of using an area key gives experience even using living tools, Disarming some traps gives experience. Unless you never get any Mechanics, there are plenty of living tools in the game. The highest trap is 10.

 

There is no experience fo disarming box mine traps or killing their summons.

 

The first time you read a specific Codex or use a creation canister you get 25 XP regardless of level. So when you are near leveling up make sure you complete quests first. Or wait until the end game to use them to maximize their value

 

Spawner made creations give no experience.

 

Box mines being disarmed or killing their summoned creations gives no experience.

 

You get no experience for killing livestock, peasants,  some people in towns and zones, and creations in a few places like Kantre’s Realm. Since most also don’t have loot, consider not killing everything that moves.

 

If you use a leadership option to avoid a fight, you won’t get experience if you kill them later.

 

You get 10 skill points per level. The game seems to be capped at 25 levels just because you run out things that will give you experience. I got to level 24 with holding off on turning in Bars of Iron quest until level 22. There are 14 Codex to be read at 25 Xp for 350  XP.  s a Barzite you can get over 1000 XP turning in Shaper Records in Gheth. This can put you almost to level 24.

 

Level Experience

 

2 1000

3 2000

4 3400

5 4800

6 6200

7 7600

8 9000

9 10400

10 11800

11 13200

12 14600

13 16000

14 17400

15 18800

16 20200

17 21600

18 23000

19 24400

20 25800

21 27200

22 28600

23 30000

24 31400

25.      ?

 

Misc.

 

Thorn bushes always provide the same thorn type in all games..

 

Depending upon how much you turned up your monitor’s brightness, using lanterns and candles may improve seeing in the dark.

 

Food now takes a long time between being used for healing so don’t carry much with you. However wine now heals damage.

 

Use consumable items and don’t worry about money since you don’t have much to spend it on in the game.

 

It’s harder to bankrupt the economy by getting every last coin because there are fewer sellable items. You can do it by selling off named items that you don’t plan to use.

 

Pylons work different than earlier games.  

[Mechalibur]

 

Thanks for the list! I noticed a few things seem copied from your Mutagen version of this and are different in Infestation:

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

Switching between melee and missile attacks costs no action points

 

It actually costs 1 now (it was free in Mutagen)

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

The highest trap is 10.

 

There are a pair of box mines that are 12 to disarm in Benerii-Uss, but they're pretty easy to cheese (enter combat room, step in the room, step out). Outside of those mines, there's also a check in Benerii-Uss that requires 11 mechanics to open a door.

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

War Blessing - +!0% to hit and damage for 4 turns

Protection - -10% chance of being hit and reducing damage (need Blessing Magic level 1)

 

I believe War Blessing now requires 1 Blessing Magic, and Protection requires 2.

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

Mass Energize - gives all blessing, shielding, and hastes (need Blessing Magic at 3)

 

Requires 6 now.

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

Mass Restore - heals damage and cures affliction for all  nearby (need Healing Craft level 3)

 

Should be 5 healing craft.

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

The maximum Leadership needed in the game is 11

 

I went through leadership checks in the scripts and the highest I could find was 10, although it's possible something was changed since I last checked.

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

Even on torment difficulty they will survive since there are 4 canisters and joining the Obeyers to get another level.

 

I don't think you can join the Obeyers in Infestation 😄

[Slawbug]

Weapon Shaping... is basically just Battle Disciplines (from A5, so predating the end of the original Geneforge series) with a new name?  Huh, wasn't expecting that.  That feels slightly anticlimactic.

 

It might be worth clarifying for those less used to SW systems: Intelligence does not really increase "all spell effects" - it just increases the ones listed for each magic type.  A new player could easily interpret that as making buffs stronger, or increasing the chance of success for applying debuffs, but as we know, it doesn't do those things.

 

There is another place in the post where it says max leadership needed is 9.  I too see up to 10 in the scripts.

 

The Weapon Shaping durations and % effects listed here look really off compared to the scripts.  I don't know if I'm misinterpreting something, it's possible, but maybe worth double checking?

 

Lifedrain applies a status, it's not just one attack.

[Mechalibur]

Well it's a bit different from battle disciplines in that they don't have a cooldown and require essence to utilize (unless they were different in A5 - I only played the re-remakes)

 

I've actually found Weapon Shaping to be incredibly fun, whereas battle disciplines were pretty whatever to me. Most of the effects are pretty useful - doing stuff like chain lightning + a spray baton gives guardians great AoE options. Essence Lash gives a pretty noticeable damage boost at higher levels and wrack/shock are both excellent against bosses. Lifedrain gives some nice sustain, especially if you combine it with regen, which can be applied before battle and lasts a pretty good duration.

[Randomizer]

Thanks for the corrections. I didn't go back through the 160+ scripts to check all the changes Jeff made during beta testing unless I found a difference when playing (Clockwork Maze) or Jeff mentioned he made it lower.

 

Weapon Shaping is amazing even after Jeff nerfed some of the effects. Guardians without creations can do all but 2 fights on torment difficulty that Jeff deliberately made you need creations. Although taking 45 rounds to kill the Inner Gaza-Uss Drakon Maser is not something I want to repeat.

 

Something I noticed was some scripted bosses will still act even with statuses like slow, wrack, and stun. But Essence Lash combined with Searing Spray will take down most bosses.

[Slawbug]

Huh, that's pretty cool!  Neat.

 

(Battle disciplines were mostly the same in A5/6, there were some slight nuances -- notably in A5/6, they were mostly "modifier" effects to the next action rather than their own action, so you could apply +25% damage to any single target action for example -- even a spell.  So I guess closer to how they are here.  But they did have cooldowns rather than energy use, yeah.)

[Mechalibur]

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Battle Shaping:

Create Thahd - at battle shaping skill 1 - Volatile Thahd - at skill 2

Create Clawbug - at skill 2 - iron Clawbug - at skill 3

Create Battle Alpha - at skill 2 -Bbattle Beta - at skill 4

Create Rotghroth at skill 3 - Rotdhizon at skill level 5

Create Ornk - at skill 1

 

Missing the Stalkthorn here (requires 2)

 

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Daze - circular area to daze foes

Wrack - circular area to make foes have  -15% to hit and damage, chance to slow to lose turn (need Mental Magic level 1)

Dominate - causes foe to be charmed (need Mental Magic level 3)

Delirium - stronger version of daze and harder to resist (need Mental Magic level 4)

Wrack Wave - wrack on all targets in circular area

Mass Madness - all targets in circular area get different mental effect

 

Daze requires 1, Wrack requires 2, Wrack Wave is 5, and Mass Madness is 6.

 

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Heal - heals more damage in target than minor heal

 

Requires 4 in healing craft

 

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Quickladh - spray of energy t foe (need Battle Magic level 3)

Airshock - circular area of energy damage with chance of stun (need Battle Magic level 3)

Essence Purge - spray of searing energy and does fire damage for multiple rounds

 

Airshock requires 4, Essence Purge requires 5. Incidentally, Essence Purge only inflicts burning at skill level 2 or higher.

 

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Chain Lightning - Skill 5 - Does decreasing energy damage to nearby foes (5 spaces apart) and on harder difficulties will hit your creations  and friendly NPCs. Each level adds 15% bonus damage.

 

You don't get a 15% damage bonus per level, it just increases the damage dice of the lightning effect.

 

3 hours ago, Randomizer said:

Or consider dropping extra items for later in a cleared zone like the Crumbling Docks.

 

Here's another Mutagen-specific reference

[Marzog]

Do the canisters still count as a level of training like in the original? I recall having to save the canisters of certain creations and spells if you wanted them to reach level 3 since you're only allowed to train skills twice. 

 

[Mechalibur]

9 minutes ago, Marzog said:

Do the canisters still count as a level of training like in the original? I recall having to save the canisters of certain creations and spells if you wanted them to reach level 3 since you're only allowed to train skills twice. 

 

 

Nope. Pick them up whenever.

[alhoon]

Something that I don't think there was in the original (Although it may have been and in my naivety failed to appreciate). 

The miserable alchemist explains to me why she thought there was a golden opportunity to come to Drypeaks: 

 

We have all been there, Alchemist Elili... 

 

Every. Word. That. Man. Says. Is. A. Lie. 

Edited March 28 by alhoon

[Mechalibur]

Jeff did a pass on all the dialogue, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's new.

 

The game is also pretty frank about Zakary's pathetic nature. So many lines of dialogue with him reference his lack of talent, integrity, or backbone.

[ultra112]

but there is a female guardian who is shown to be very loyal for him though

[Mechalibur]

I think Nora was always like that. Too bad the game never goes into detail about why she's so loyal to him.

[alhoon]

1 hour ago, Mechalibur said:

I think Nora was always like that. Too bad the game never goes into detail about why she's so loyal to him.

It does, in a way. When I pressed Nora to give me the dirt, I got a message that Guardians often take the "soldier's loyalty" too far. Couple that with the fact that she is a Shaper puppet (i.e. brainwashed), and you get where that loyalty comes from. 

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

On 3/29/2024 at 11:57 AM, Mechalibur said:

I think Nora was always like that. Too bad the game never goes into detail about why she's so loyal to him.

 

On 3/29/2024 at 1:18 PM, alhoon said:

It does, in a way. When I pressed Nora to give me the dirt, I got a message that Guardians often take the "soldier's loyalty" too far. Couple that with the fact that she is a Shaper puppet (i.e. brainwashed), and you get where that loyalty comes from. 

 

Not sure if this was added for the remake, but you can ask here about this directly. "Why are you so loyal to Zachary?" She says Zachary saved her , and "not just her life."

 

She also says she "trusts his judgement" and that "he is not the most talented shaper, but he is a good man at times."

 

Suggests to me she's far from blind to his flaws ("at times") but that she does have good reason for her loyalty, even if the details remain mysterious. It's not just soldier loyalty or being a "brainwashed puppet" or anything like that.

Edited March 30 by Iguana-on-a-stick

[alhoon]

13 minutes ago, Iguana-on-a-stick said:

 

She also says she "trusts his judgement" and that "he is not the most talented shaper, but he is a good man at times."

 

Suggests to me she's far from blind to his flaws ("at times") but that she does have good reason for her loyalty, even if the details remain mysterious. It's not just soldier loyalty or being a "brainwashed puppet" or anything like that.

I would dare say that her being aware of some of his flaws and still oblivious to how far he has fallen, is kinda leading towards her being a Shaper puppet - as in she is brainwashed to think that her Shapers superiors must have a reason to do what they do, even if she (also a Shaper) doesn't understand it. 

[TriRodent]

Not a change but this seems like a good place to drop this.

 

On the travel map, if you want to enter a green zone from a different direction than the default, click on the tile for that zone and it will cycle through the choices. (for instance, I drop all my excess inventory right inside the first Drypeak gate (there's a couple guards standing right there, may as well give them something to do...).  Going back there for most anywhere else though and you'll enter from either the west side of town or out of the mines.  A couple of clicks on the Drypeak icon and I'm now entering from the south)

[Slawbug]

- For Mechanics "items", there is also a +1 Mechanics book, and it's in the same room as Tinker's Gloves.  You truly don't need to invest a lot here.

- Intelligence and Spellcraft don't actually improve "all spell effects".  Sorry, still on this "don't mislead new players by repeating bad in-game descriptions" horse

- Corrections from Mechalibur's post on Weds still needed - Stalkthorn got added but looks like the rest got skipped by mistake

- For the shaping section:

 

> "Fire Shaping tends to be the best Shaping type both because you can find canister and codex for fyoras early in the game and all fire creations have range attacks."

 

I think this must be a holdover from Mutagen.  The line about Fyoras is completely inaccurate, and given the other adjustments that were made the "Fire Shaping tends to be the best" statement simply isn't true anymore.

 

> "One of the easiest play through is increasing Fire Shaping and Essence Mastery to use cryoas through out the game as soon as possible to replace your starting fyora. They are cheap and have decent attacks even though they are more susceptible to mental attacks."

 

This is an atrocious thing to suggest to new players.  Cryoas remain a pretty terrible value even though they have been mildly buffed in Infestation.  This was an OK strategy in some of the original Geneforges but not here.  And on a purely objective level, they aren't cheap, not compared to similarly powered creations.

[alhoon]

Cryoas are buffed? I loved Cryoas but in Mutagen...  

 

As for Fireshaping not being the best any more: Would you explain more? Clawbugs, I guess, are still very good. Vlish, I guess, are a near-must. But that said, the "meat" of my army is usually Fire creations. 

 

 

  

2 hours ago, Slarti said:

- For Mechanics "items", there is also a +1 Mechanics book, and it's in the same room as Tinker's Gloves.  You truly don't need to invest a lot here.

 

Apologies, but I find that mistaken from the perspective of the casual gamer.
I am in the early game with mechanics 2 I think and I can't open half the doors and the chests in the early areas without living tools, which are rare and expensive at this point. I cannot loot investigate many of Drypeak's buildings and there are abandoned chests in the mines I cannot open. Yes, I am aware that I could return there 10 levels later with the gear and all or save-and-load to use my living tools wisely, but keeping a huge list of doors I have not opened or frequent save-load is not that entertaining. 

Thus, I would dare say: Mechanics are needed in the early game.

 

=================================================================

 

Welcome (so far) change for the original: The dialogue is improved. I may have forgot a lot, but I certainly enjoy the dialogues. It was good in the original, but here it is better. 

Edited March 31 by alhoon

[Mechalibur]

For what it's worth, there's a pretty big gulf between viable and optimal. Stuff like cryoas tend to come up short in comparison to other options you can have at your disposal (in the cryoa's case you're generally better off making more fyoras), but they're still perfectly adequate for beating the game, even on torment. And if you're not playing on torment, I'd say just go for what looks fun. As long as you don't do anything ridiculous like exclusively invest in melee/missile skills on a shaper, you should be able to clear the game just fine.

[alhoon]

2 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

 As long as you don't do anything ridiculous like exclusively invest in melee/missile skills on a shaper, you should be able to clear the game just fine.

I would not do that, but if I was playing an agent, I would invest very heavily... on Shaping. 

[Mechalibur]

Yeah, Agents still want to have points in shaping, ideally (and focused in a single shaping school due to the point cost). You just wouldn't want to put every point in shaping.

[Randomizer]

Fyora have a book in Drypeak Warrens and canister early in the Awaken Lands whereas the others only have them later. They also have the option of innate haste and no cool down period so out of all three types they have the potential for most attacks per round with cone of fire.

 

I did play throughs with all three types on torment difficulty. Overall fire and magic worked the best although magic used more essence and it was later in the game before you could get the better creations. Also they were slightly more squishy to damage  even with better resistance. Also in the Taker lands you fight more creations that are highly resistant to glaahk's stun and charm abilities.

 

Battle is better, but lacks a range attack every round and Jeff puts up plenty of barriers to negate the jump to target ability. You can get through the game and even as a Loyalist have all 4 tiers of creations.  

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

49 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Apologies, but I find that mistaken from the perspective of the casual gamer.
I am in the early game with mechanics 2 I think and I can't open half the doors and the chests in the early areas without living tools, which are rare and expensive at this point. I cannot loot investigate many of Drypeak's buildings and there are abandoned chests in the mines I cannot open. Yes, I am aware that I could return there 10 levels later with the gear and all or save-and-load to use my living tools wisely, but keeping a huge list of doors I have not opened or frequent save-load is not that entertaining. 

Thus, I would dare say: Mechanics are needed in the early game.

 

 

 

"Not a lot" doesn't mean "2".

 

The big top post says that having mechanics 6 works fine, and so far that holds true for me. 6 mechanics costs 15 points, so that's 1.5 levels. That indeed is "not a lot."

 

But yeah, I would indeed advice new players to get that 6 mechanics early. The items just mean you need to invest less after that.

[alhoon]

On 3/27/2024 at 1:24 PM, Randomizer said:

An example is Zora in Drypeak Mines for her buffing ability, Battle Roar. Ciphar in Western Mines will kill almost everything in the Saltmarsh if you let him heal between fights by just staying in a safe area.

 

Someone asked before, I think. Not sure where. 

Is their level capped at the moment you hire them, or is it set? I.e. if I get Zora (who also has a very beautiful art) at later levels, is she higher level?

I do not want to check the script files for spoilers. Her roar is great, her hp and damage combo make her better in fighting than a Thahd I could make.

[Mechalibur]

They're set levels, I'm pretty sure. They aren't really meant to replace creations.

 

1 minute ago, alhoon said:

I.e. if I get Zora (who also has a very beautiful art)

 

Random aside - does anyone else think her character art is AI-generated? One of her legs is at a weird angle, there's a bizarre texture where she has a jumble of belts that intersect, and her sword doesn't appear to have a hilt - she's just holding the blade.

[alhoon]

From what I can see, she is holding the hilt of a slightly curved sword, face-down. If the game had AI-gen graphics, it would be mentioned on Steam and it isn't. Honestly, I don't see the weird angle and I find it reasonable for a scout to have lots of belts. 

 

What I can say with certainty that it is bizarre and it was as bizarre in the original, is the map where you have rivers merging in a lake... and no outflow. Where does the excess water go? That lake is not an ocean; unless those rivers only flow for a couple of months the water that comes in is nowhere close to what would be evaporated. 

Edited March 31 by alhoon

[Slawbug]

As Mechalibur says, there's a big gulf between viable and optimal.  Giving advice on what's viable is perfectly fine!  But don't present what's viable as if it is optimal!  That's where it becomes misleading and does a disservice to new players.  The problem is "one of the easiest playthroughs is to use cryoas."  Not cryoas are an option, but "one of the easiest" is truly objectively silly.

 

I am 100% agreed with Randomizer about Fyora innate haste + no cool down making them (and Drayks) the uncontested spammable AoE powerhouses.  Cryoas have none of that even though they are more expensive, and the things they get instead really aren't worth the trade.

 

Fyoras are great, and Fire Shaping is absolutely great and a top tier option -- probably also the one that requires the least thinking since it's just brute force.  It just isn't head and shoulders better than the other options like it was in Mutagen.

  

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

Fyora have a book in Drypeak Warrens and canister early in the Awaken Lands whereas the others only have them later.

 

This isn't true.  Create Thahd actually gets free points earlier, one from Shanti in the intro and one from a book in Drypeak.  (And the default point in Create Fyora counts against trainer use, so its lifespan is limited.)  Create Artila has two free points also available early in the Awakened Lands, and artilas have also been buffed compared to Mutagen - higher base level is basically the same thing as free books/canisters anyway, and they are actually sturdier than fyoras now (and still have an oddly strong melee attack).  Early on fyoras aren't actually better yet since it's not yet efficient to spend the essence on AoE spam (rather than just making 2 fyoras, and of course you can also just make 2 artilas).

 

If you don't want any involvement with the Servants or the Awakened, then fyoras are definitely the best option early midgame (until you hit the Loyalist Encampment at least).  If you do, even temporarily, then you'll have access to the stronger creations of your choice much earlier.

 

1 hour ago, Randomizer said:

I did play throughs with all three types on torment difficulty. Overall fire and magic worked the best although magic used more essence and it was later in the game before you could get the better creations. Also they were slightly more squishy to damage  even with better resistance. Also in the Taker lands you fight more creations that are highly resistant to glaahk's stun and charm abilities.

 

Battle is better, but lacks a range attack every round and Jeff puts up plenty of barriers to negate the jump to target ability. You can get through the game and even as a Loyalist have all 4 tiers of creations.  

 

Your experience is your experience, but that doesn't change questions of fact.  Long-term, fire shaping really wants drayks, which can be available early if you align with Zakary or Pinner immediately.  Long-term, magic shaping really wants gazers and glaahks, which also can be available early if you align with Zakary or Pinner.  Gazers only with Pinner, but this is already an asterisk on availabilities for both shaping types.  The only circumstance where you get drayks early but don't get gazers early is if you align with Zakary and only Zakary.

 

The key offensive fire creations (fyoras and drayks) are actually squishier than comparable magic creations, to say nothing of the fairly tanky glaahks.

 

Good battle shaping is extremely reliant on rotghroths, but rotghroths are an obscenely good value, and tankier than anything else in the game.

[Slawbug]

On Mechanics, you do feel it in the demo area if you avoid investing in it.  That's pretty much the only place.  By the end of the demo area you can go back and open old stuff with the living tools you have, and after that even 5-6 mech is enough to never really have to backtrack.

 

Remember that the formula for living tool use is Lock Level / (Mechanics + 1), and it's rounded down (to a minimum of zero).  A lot of doors and traps have difficulty levels of 10, 12, 15, 20, 25... what does this mean in practice?  Let's consider some examples:

 

L 10 door (very common)

L 10 door costs 1 living tool with Mechanics 5-9

L 10 door costs 2 living tools with Mechanics 3-4

L 10 door costs 3 living tools with Mechanics 2

L 10 door costs 5 living tools with Mechanics 1

L 10 door costs 10 living tools with Mechanics 0

 

L 20 door

L 20 door costs 1 living tool with Mechanics 10+

L 20 door costs 2 living tools with Mechanics 6-9

L 20 door costs 3 living tools with Mechanics 5

L 20 door costs 4 living tools with Mechanics 4

L 20 door costs 5 living tools with Mechanics 3

L 20 door costs 6 living tools with Mechanics 2

 

L 25 door (unusually difficult)

L 25 door costs 1 living tool with Mechanics 12+

L 25 door costs 2 living tools with Mechanics 8-11

L 25 door costs 3 living tools with Mechanics 6-7

L 25 door costs 4 living tools with Mechanics 5

 

If you're just worried about conserving living tools, the impact is pretty large up to around Mechanics 5-6 but after that it drops off.  You end up with a pretty large living tool surplus eventually even just at Mechanics 6.  So I think Randomizer is right on here.  I was just noting that there is an extra +1 from that book, too, so there's 7 free points by the end.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

48 minutes ago, Slarti said:

I am 100% agreed with Randomizer about Fyora innate haste + no cool down making them (and Drayks) the uncontested spammable AoE powerhouses.  Cryoas have none of that even though they are more expensive, and the things they get instead really aren't worth the trade.

 

 

Searing Artilas also get this combo, AND they inflict acid. And have a free shield ability you can use in the same turn you attack.

 

When I swapped from Fyoras to Artila's I noticed a very big damage upgrade.

 

Of course, Drayks are a different story.

[Slawbug]

Searing Artilas also get that combo... but Searing Artilas cost literally twice as much as Fyoras.  You could make 2 fyoras and do twice the damage, or you could get that acid.  Magic shaping is great but searing artilas (while not without their use) are not the main reason why.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

49 minutes ago, Slarti said:

Searing Artilas also get that combo... but Searing Artilas cost literally twice as much as Fyoras.  You could make 2 fyoras and do twice the damage, or you could get that acid.  Magic shaping is great but searing artilas (while not without their use) are not the main reason why.

 

I thought the Artila inflicted a lot more damage, but when I checked the numbers with equal shaping/skill it turned out to be only 1.16 times as much. The difference is a bit bigger when dealing with a single opponent, but that's not what you invest in no-cooldown AoE for. So yeah, definitely better to spam Fyoras then. Though a single artila with shield still seems very helpful.

[Slawbug]

I posted some analysis relevant to some of these discussions here, thoughts welcome.

[alhoon]

A possible change I noticed was with Shanti and Sharon. Shanti apparently told Sharon ... good things about me. That is peculiar, considering I have been saying pro-Servile things day in and day out. Perhaps I have not said enough by the time I reached Sharon. Or there is no different choice. Regardless, Shanti seems more likeable in this version, tough but not obnoxious and more involved in your training. Or it could be that I know what happens to her but I think not; I think she is written as more likeable to make a bigger impact. 

Edited April 2 by alhoon

[Mechalibur]

The dialogue doesn't change based on your servile rep.

 

Shanti is the one who tells you that, even she made her own choice, many paths are open to you, and it's your decision which to follow. This was true in the original as well. 

[mikeprichard]

On 3/31/2024 at 1:42 PM, Slarzahl said:

Remember that the formula for living tool use is (Mechanics + 1) / Door Level, and it's rounded down.

I may be off here, but should the formula instead be "Lock Level / (Mechanics + 1)"? E.g., with Mechanics 9, to open lock level 12, you'd need 12 / (9 + 1) = 1.2, rounded down = 1 living tool. The reverse ("(Mechanics + 1) / Lock Level") would instead return a fraction less than 1 (i.e., 0 living tools rounded down) in most reasonable cases, which I think isn't correct.

Since your post is linked in Strategy Central, a couple suggestions (take or leave):
1) Maybe change all references to "door" to the more broadly applicable "lock" (for doors, containers, levers, machines, etc. - although what about traps? ugh).
2) It may be helpful to note that using 0 living tools is also possible depending on Mechanics and lock level values - perhaps through one more list of examples using lock level 5, a range common in the early zones and one where many players will be able to use 0 tools.

Edited April 5 by mikeprichard

[Slawbug]

Whoops.  I 100% flipped that fraction.  (The example math was all correct.)  Good catch!!

[mikeprichard]

OK! I just edited my post with a couple more suggestions for you to consider and of course either incorporate/ignore as you see fit. Thanks for the info - Strategy Central's really bulking up quick.

[Val Ritz]

I seem to recall that in the original there was a gem merchant in Fort Muck who would infini-buy gemstones from you. I can only find the herbalist guy this time around, has that been moved or removed?

[Randomizer]

The gem merchant of the original now only sells herbs, no more place to sell gems. Same person and same location within Fort Muck.