Analysis - Shaping Balance in G2: Infestation

[Aoslare]

Here's an analysis of creations and shaping types in Infestation.  This is similar to my topic for Mutagen, which uses objective math as much as possible, and tries to "flatten" a profusion of numbers into just a few easy-to-compare scores per creation.

 

Overview

Infestation has maybe the best balance among Shaping Types from any Geneforge game, old or new.  Some creations are still a lot better than others, but each shaping type is quite strong when used correctly, and each excels in different situations.

 

• Fire Shaping excels in spammable AoE attacks.  This is great when you face numerous enemies that aren't spread too far apart.  It's a brute-force, inflexible approach which requires minimal thinking or support (though tactical positioning can be important).
• Battle Shaping can pump out an obscene amount of ST damage when in melee range, making it especially good against tough high-HP enemies where there is one primary threat that doesn't move around.  Closing to melee swiftly is crucial.  It also has the sturdiest creations, so pairs well with healing.
• Magic Shaping offers reliable, renewable access to incredibly powerful statuses that go beyond what spellcasting can get you.  It has the most variety, and is very flexible.  As such, it rewards (and sometimes requires) thoughtful tactics and flexible thinking from the player.

 

General Approach

• Level matters, since it's the almost sole determiner of attack accuracy (in addition to boosting evasion, HP, and damage).  The most effective way to increase creation level is by increasing the PC's Shaping skills... which means that, if you're shaping at all, those skills will offer a bigger "bang for their buck" than increasing Battle Magic or Melee Weapons ever will.
• Because of this, advancing only one category of Shaping is most effective.  Spreading out those points just to throw in creations that can cause certain status effects, or tank slightly better (it's really hard to tank at all with Mutagen's combat logic) mostly isn't worth it.  Even the status effects won't land consistently.

 

Creations, Best to Worst
Because the shaping types play so distinctly, I've split up the "best to worst" list by shaping type.  The numbers listed below are my own calculations (based off raw game data + spreadsheets, and sanity checked by playtesting).  They assume the PC has 8 levels in each shaping skill and all Create X canisters/codexes/training.

- Essence cost: expected cost (with recommended augments) / base cost
- Survivability: HP, magnified it to represent damage "prevented" by resistances/augments, & averaged the phys/elem numbers.
- DPS: Average damage from their best repeatable attack, multiplied for haste and crit passives, bonus AP, etc. as appropriate.
- New to this analysis: I have also adjusted DPS slightly (-3% per notch below a threshold) to account for accuracy based on creation level and default attack accuracy, which is relevant against endgame bosses (or any time you're "pushing it").
- They do not assume the presence of any PC equipment that boosts creation stats.

 

Fire Creations, Best to Worst
Tier 1: Drayks (26/14 essence for LV 16, Survival 201, DPS 71(124) w/ AoE spam)
Tier 2: Fyoras . (12/6 essence for LV 14, Survival 101, DPS 35(61) w/ AoE spam)
- Basically the same creation, Drayks just have higher base level, better attack mults (+ faster animations)
- Best offensive passives lets them spam AoE cone attacks with average output boosted 25% via haste chance (it's +35% but stacks additively with the Haste status)
- Overload (damage in parentheses) is hard to use early, but once you hit higher creation HP and get Mass Healing, it allows you to deal insane amounts of damage with very little risk
- Cheap cost allows you to run many copies, boost level+damage with Int levels, and/or conserve essence

 

Tier 3: Drakons (24/24 essence for LV 19, Survival 318, DPS 142 w/ Burn)
Tier 4: Roamers . (11/8 essence for LV 14, Survival 153, DPS 43 w/ Wrack)
- Less efficient than Drayks/Fyoras, but a decent option if you want to mix in a sturdy creation with ST damage for similar total cost
- AoEs are weak and not worth buying, but Drakon Burn does get you some extra DoT

 

Tier Nope: Cryoas . . . . (18/9 essence for LV 15, Survival 153, DPS 37 w/ Daze)
Tier Nope: Cryodrayks (33/18 essence for LV 17, Survival 208, DPS 83 w/ Daze)
Tier Nope: Ur-Drakons (36/36 essence for LV 20, Survival 330, DPS 165 w/ Burn)
- More expensive versions of their base types that just aren't worth the extra cost in any way

 

Tier Nope: Pyroroamers (12 essence for LV 11 remote controlled bomb)
- Poor use of essence compared to just making another AoE spammer

Battle Creations, Best to Worst
Tier 1: Rotghroths (18/18 essence for LV 19, Survival 351, DPS 127(222) w/ Acid + DoT Boost)
- 6 AP attack means unparalleled ST damage for their essence cost if they can stay in close melee range
- Free Acid and an only-one-needs-to-buy-it boost to all your Acid and Poison also helps with DoT to take down big single targets
- Overload (damage in parentheses) makes their damage output even more insane, though it's not free
- Tankiest creation outside of Rotdhizons, and tankiest by a mile for their essence cost

 

Tier 3: Battle Alphas (22/14 essence for LV 18, Survival 320, DPS 65 w/ Stun/Daze)
Tier 4: Thahds . . . . . . (12/6 essence for LV 14, Survival 141, DPS 40 w/ Stun/Daze)
- Worse DPS than Rots, but if you want some creation-based Stun and Daze they're an OK option

 

Tier 4: Iron Clawbugs (13/10 essence for LV 17, Survival 167, DPS 53 w/ Poison)
- Early game stat upgrade over Thahds, better for longer fights where one Stun won't cut it
- The only alternate creation that is cheap enough to overshadow the base creation entirely

 

Tier 4: Stalkthorns (20/12 essence for LV 18, Survival 180, DPS 105 w/ Slow/Poison)
- Needs to be Rooted to get this DPS
- Situational, disposable option for when Battle Shaping really needs a ranged attack

 

Tier Nope: Rotdhizons . (33/26 essence for LV 19, Survival 459, DPS 151 w/ Acid + DoT Boost)
Tier Nope: Battle Betas (28/18 essence for LV 21, Survival 337, DPS 82 w/ Stun/Daze)
- More expensive versions of their base types that just aren't worth the extra cost
- Battle Betas might have a super limited use case due to the unusual 3 level advantage over Battle Alphas, for if you need stuns and that 15% accuracy really matters.

 

Tier Nope: Clawbugs (11/8 essence for LV 13, Survival 136, DPS 32 w/ Poison)
- Only slightly cheaper than its upgraded version and much worse

 

Tier Nope: Volatile Thahds (10 essence for LV 13 remote controlled bomb)
- Doesn't play well with Battle Creations since everything else wants to be in melee range; it can't really help you close to melee either

 

Tier Lol: Ornks (20/12 essence for LV 9, Survival 64, DPS 13 w/ Stun)

Magic Creations, Best to Worst

Tier 1: Gazers . . . (28/22 essence for LV 20, Survival 198, DPS 153 w/ Charm + Status Rave)
Tier 1: Eyebeasts (41/32 essence for LV 21, Survival 202, DPS 159 w/ Null + Status Rave)
- Strong ranged ST DPS which also spams inconsistent but strong statuses
- Nullity is situationally fight-winning, and uses Curse Resistance, which is rare
- Dominate is situationally fight-winning
- Incredibly flexible creations, limited only by your tactical imagination
- Can even tack on Wrack/Vulnerable access if needed
- Eyebeasts are expensive, but just one makes a big difference
- Extra Gazers can be fairly affordable, as they don't all need Dominate

 

Tier 2: Glaahks . . . (27/17 essence for LV 16, Survival 268, DPS 59 w/ Stun spam)
Tier 3: Ur-Glaahks (34/22 essence for LV 17, Survival 243, DPS 64 w/ Stun spam + Charm)
- Stun spam is situationally fight-winning
- Dominate is situationally fight-winning, though Gazers are probably the better user
- Being restricted to melee is a limitation, but they are also among the sturdiest creations

 

For a party combining several of these 4 creations: Nullity, Dominate, and Stun attack 3 different resistances, so you'll never truly be locked out of a status-based strategy.

 

Tier 4: Artilas (11/7 essence for LV 15, Survival 117, DPS 34 or 53 w/ Poison)
- Great early game creations with an oddly powerful melee attack
- Better than Fyoras until you have the essence/stats to take advantage of good AoE spam

 

Tier 5: Vlish (13/10 essence for LV 13, Survival 109, DPS 32 w/ Curse)
- Not very good, but being the only consistent way to place Curse gives it a potential niche

 

Tier 5: Searing Artila (24/12 essence for LV 16, Survival 104, DPS 38 w/ AoE spam + Acid)
- Similar to a Fyora, but costs twice as much
- Does have access to both acid (ranged) and poison (melee), for a situational DoT inclusion

 

Tier Nope: Charged Vlish (18/14 essence for LV 14, Survival 116, DPS 39 w/ Vulnerable)
- Like Vlish, but more expensive, and there are better Vulnerable sources (like Gazers)

 

Tier Nope: Cockatrice (32/20 essence for LV 21, Survival 192, DPS 74 w/ Stun/Daze)
- A bit like a Glaahk that only tries to stun half the time
- Requires picking up canisters all over the distant bits of the map to even achieve these stats
 

[Randomizer]

When playing above normal difficulty, Gazers and Eyebests have the added advantage of Roamers that their AoE attack will not affect your party. This makes them more effective than other AoE attack creations.

 

Drakon chain lightning can arc back into your party if you don't maintain a 6 tile separation. All other cone and circular area attacks also have to be placed carefully not to hit your party.

[alhoon]

Thank you for this. 

Now, would it be too hard for you to do an educated guess, I am not asking for an extensive analysis, for "early game" (say up to level 7-8), "Mid game" (levels 8 to say 13-14, having picked a faction and explored quite a lot of the map) optimal creations? 

The synopsis above, with 8 levels in Shaping seem like early-high level - as you assumed 8 levels in the required shaping class and all sources to boost the creations. A shaper could get 9-10 to compensate a cannister or training lost by those levels. 

Early level one hasn't have access to many creation types and getting that tier 3 instead of this tier 3 can make a difference. 

 

I would also like to know if you are in the camp of "spend a lot on essence mastery to get more creations" or the "spend more on shaping mastery for tougher creations." 

I would also know where the various people you recruit fall in that analysis, if possible; what I mean is that early game, Nora the scout is an exceptional battle-creation replacement with her high hp (for level 4) and her roar to boost the others. 

 

Edited March 31 by alhoon

[Aoslare]

Good point about Gazer/Eyebeast AoEs, though they are also much weaker than their main attack (in addition to being on cooldown).

 

34 minutes ago, alhoon said:

Now, would it be too hard for you to do an educated guess, I am not asking for an extensive analysis, for "early game" (say up to level 7-8), "Mid game" (levels 8 to say 13-14, having picked a faction and explored quite a lot of the map) optimal creations? 

The short answer is no, for several reasons:

(1) You probably want to stick with one shaping type for the whole game.

(2) It's going to depend 100% on what factions you join.

(3) The top tier creations beat the fyora/thahd/artila by enough, in G2, that you can safely replace those as soon as you have access to the better ones, regardless of your essence.

 

 

The point of the "8 levels of training" is just to standardize.  You could pick "3 levels" or "12 levels" and it wouldn't change much.  That said, as a Shaper, it really only takes 2 levels worth of skill points to get up to a Shaping Skill of 6, and there are early armors for +1 as well.

 

34 minutes ago, alhoon said:

I would also like to know if you are in the camp of "spend a lot on essence mastery to get more creations" or the "spend more on shaping mastery for tougher creations." 

I would also know where the various people you recruit fall in that analysis, if possible; what I mean is that early game, Nora the scout is an exceptional battle-creation replacement with her high hp (for level 4) and her roar to boost the others. 

 

 

Nora is exceptional period -- unless you're eschewing other party members entirely, any party wants her around for 100% of the Drypeak area.  The others mostly aren't that great from what I've seen, though there's still 1 or 2 I haven't gotten to yet.

 

Early on Shaping skill probably matters more, and later on extra essence may or may not even be needed.  Essence goes up with XP level, but creation level doesn't.  Having the required skill to cast key spells, which early on might mean Group Healing or Dominate, also pretty key.  If I'm running something with cheap creations, honestly, I'd either never boost Essence Mastery or give it very few boosts.  If I plan on Eyebeasts etc I might give it an extra couple pumps.  In general though, I'd avoid putting too many points into Essence Mastery.

[BenS]

Well, my 12th l. Shaper has definitely been built and run sub optimally by this analysis. I've pumped Essence Mastery every level, not understanding how little bang for the buck I got at early levels. I'm running currently w/ 3 maxed Cryoas and 1 maxed Energized Vlish--all members of Team Nope. LOL. I love the passive frost dmg the Cryoas have to nearby foes at least.

 

Slarti, I think your 2nd Roamer comment might be for Drakons, no?

 

I was probably building to an Everyman shaper instead of focusing on 1 type, thinking my versatility will pay off when I know the foe types in an area. But maybe spreading myself too thin I guess. I will note the Battle shaping type doesn't have much going for it (by your analysis) until 3rd tier, which unless you join a faction early I don't think you'll get access to.

 

Anyway, this is all helpful info and theory-crafting. I can create new pets if my current squad just can't cut it at a certain point, and fully expect to. Since I plan at least 3 play throughs, maybe I should settle down on 1 shaping type and explore the upper reaches of the others later. Since I'm playing a full Shaper w/ more essence than Guardians or Infiltrators, maybe the high-essence-costing Magic type should be my goal. Though I do like the mix-and-match squad, like I currently have.

[Aoslare]

You are correct about Drakons!  I grouped Drakons and Roamers together, the comments are generally meant to apply to both.

 

The top creations for every shaping type, in this analysis, are 3rd or 4th tier.  If you don't join a faction early, you can't access any of them until the Loyalist Encampment at the earliest.  Rotghroths are actually available there, though, as well as from Tyallea (i.e., the earliest good creation opportunity, for if you join Zakary), from Tuldaric, etc.

 

If I were gonna do 1 of each class and shaping type, I'd probably put Fire Shaping with the Shaper.  Because Fire Shaping is brute force it relies more on maxing out its essence/shaping levels, so Agents are a rougher fit.  Because it's AoE, it plays poorly with melee (on higher difficulty anyway) and therefore a lot of Guardian fun.  I'd stick Magic Shaping with the Guardian (who can tank for them a little, and who can rely on them for a lot of magic needs), and Battle with the Agent (who can do the reverse, supporting them with mental magic and buffs, while letting them take the hits).

[alhoon]

Honestly, I would think: Magic for Guardian (For the buffs) and Battle for the Agent (For tanking/melee/meat-shielding) 

[BenS]

I continue to learn things I wouldn't have thought on my own, so thank you both for the tips. I had imagined Agent--w/ lowest essence/shaping skills--would want Fire b/c they tend to be lesser essence creations, or maybe Fire for a melee-based Guardian for ranged attack options. But I think I see your rationale for different choices. I am playing my 1st game on Veteran instead of the usual Normal just to get a feel for the game, and probably will continue in that vein w/ maybe a Torment Guardian for last.

 

The game's starting to get more challenging simply b/c I haven't joined a faction, reached the Loyalist Camp, and thus am a Shaper w/ no tier 3-4 creations. I'll see how far I can push it before breaking down and joining, though I know technically you don't have to join any faction to complete the game.

 

I'll try to focus more on Fire for my current Shaper, then do Guardian & Magic, Agent & Battle for the next 2 games, to try and complement inherent build strengths. Thanks again.

[ultra112]

6 hours ago, Slarti said:

Here's an analysis of creations and shaping types in Infestation.  This is similar to my topic for Mutagen, which uses objective math as much as possible, and tries to "flatten" a profusion of numbers into just a few easy-to-compare scores per creation.

 

Overview

Infestation has maybe the best balance among Shaping Types from any Geneforge game, old or new.  Some creations are still a lot better than others, but each shaping type is quite strong when used correctly, and each excels in different situations.

 

• Fire Shaping excels in spammable AoE attacks.  This is great when you face numerous enemies that aren't spread too far apart.  It's a brute-force, inflexible approach which requires minimal thinking or support (though tactical positioning can be important).
• Battle Shaping can pump out an obscene amount of ST damage when in melee range, making it especially good against tough high-HP enemies where there is one primary threat that doesn't move around.  Closing to melee swiftly is crucial.  It also has the sturdiest creations, so pairs well with healing.
• Magic Shaping offers reliable, renewable access to incredibly powerful statuses that go beyond what spellcasting can get you.  It has the most variety, and is very flexible.  As such, it rewards (and sometimes requires) thoughtful tactics and flexible thinking from the player.

 

General Approach

• Level matters, since it's the almost sole determiner of attack accuracy (in addition to boosting evasion, HP, and damage).  The most effective way to increase creation level is by increasing the PC's Shaping skills... which means that, if you're shaping at all, those skills will offer a bigger "bang for their buck" than increasing Battle Magic or Melee Weapons ever will.
• Because of this, advancing only one category of Shaping is most effective.  Spreading out those points just to throw in creations that can cause certain status effects, or tank slightly better (it's really hard to tank at all with Mutagen's combat logic) mostly isn't worth it.  Even the status effects won't land consistently.

 

Creations, Best to Worst
Because the shaping types play so distinctly, I've split up the "best to worst" list by shaping type.  The numbers listed below are my own calculations (based off raw game data + spreadsheets, and sanity checked by playtesting).  They assume the PC has 8 levels in each shaping skill and all Create X canisters/codexes/training.

- Essence cost: expected cost (with recommended augments) / base cost
- Survivability: HP, magnified it to represent damage "prevented" by resistances/augments, & averaged the phys/elem numbers.
- DPS: Average damage from their best repeatable attack, multiplied for haste and crit passives, bonus AP, etc. as appropriate.
- New to this analysis: I have also adjusted DPS slightly (-3% per notch below a threshold) to account for accuracy based on creation level and default attack accuracy, which is relevant against endgame bosses (or any time you're "pushing it").
- They do not assume the presence of any PC equipment that boosts creation stats.

 

Fire Creations, Best to Worst
Tier 1: Drayks (26/14 essence for LV 16, Survival 201, DPS 71(124) w/ AoE spam)
Tier 2: Fyoras . (12/6 essence for LV 14, Survival 101, DPS 35(61) w/ AoE spam)
- Basically the same creation, Drayks just have higher base level, better attack mults (+ faster animations)
- Best offensive passives lets them spam AoE cone attacks with average output boosted 25% via haste chance (it's +35% but stacks additively with the Haste status)
- Overload (damage in parentheses) is hard to use early, but once you hit higher creation HP and get Mass Healing, it allows you to deal insane amounts of damage with very little risk
- Cheap cost allows you to run many copies, boost level+damage with Int levels, and/or conserve essence

 

Tier 3: Drakons (24/24 essence for LV 19, Survival 318, DPS 142 w/ Burn)
Tier 4: Roamers . (11/8 essence for LV 14, Survival 153, DPS 43 w/ Wrack)
- Less efficient than Drayks/Fyoras, but a decent option if you want to mix in a sturdy creation with ST damage for similar total cost
- AoEs are weak and not worth buying, but Drakon Burn does get you some extra DoT

 

Tier Nope: Cryoas . . . . (18/9 essence for LV 15, Survival 153, DPS 37 w/ Daze)
Tier Nope: Cryodrayks (33/18 essence for LV 17, Survival 208, DPS 83 w/ Daze)
Tier Nope: Ur-Drakons (36/36 essence for LV 20, Survival 330, DPS 165 w/ Burn)
- More expensive versions of their base types that just aren't worth the extra cost in any way

 

Tier Nope: Pyroroamers (12 essence for LV 11 remote controlled bomb)
- Poor use of essence compared to just making another AoE spammer

Battle Creations, Best to Worst
Tier 1: Rotghroths (18/18 essence for LV 19, Survival 351, DPS 127(222) w/ Acid + DoT Boost)
- 6 AP attack means unparalleled ST damage for their essence cost if they can stay in close melee range
- Free Acid and an only-one-needs-to-buy-it boost to all your Acid and Poison also helps with DoT to take down big single targets
- Overload (damage in parentheses) makes their damage output even more insane, though it's not free
- Tankiest creation outside of Rotdhizons, and tankiest by a mile for their essence cost

 

Tier 3: Battle Alphas (22/14 essence for LV 18, Survival 320, DPS 65 w/ Stun/Daze)
Tier 4: Thahds . . . . . . (12/6 essence for LV 14, Survival 141, DPS 40 w/ Stun/Daze)
- Worse DPS than Rots, but if you want some creation-based Stun and Daze they're an OK option

 

Tier 4: Iron Clawbugs (13/10 essence for LV 17, Survival 167, DPS 53 w/ Poison)
- Early game stat upgrade over Thahds, better for longer fights where one Stun won't cut it
- The only alternate creation that is cheap enough to overshadow the base creation entirely

 

Tier 4: Stalkthorns (20/12 essence for LV 18, Survival 180, DPS 105 w/ Slow/Poison)
- Needs to be Rooted to get this DPS
- Situational, disposable option for when Battle Shaping really needs a ranged attack

 

Tier Nope: Rotdhizons . (33/26 essence for LV 19, Survival 459, DPS 151 w/ Acid + DoT Boost)
Tier Nope: Battle Betas (28/18 essence for LV 21, Survival 337, DPS 82 w/ Stun/Daze)
- More expensive versions of their base types that just aren't worth the extra cost
- Battle Betas might have a super limited use case due to the unusual 3 level advantage over Battle Alphas, for if you need stuns and that 15% accuracy really matters.

 

Tier Nope: Clawbugs (11/8 essence for LV 13, Survival 136, DPS 32 w/ Poison)
- Only slightly cheaper than its upgraded version and much worse

 

Tier Nope: Volatile Thahds (10 essence for LV 13 remote controlled bomb)
- Doesn't play well with Battle Creations since everything else wants to be in melee range; it can't really help you close to melee either

 

Tier Lol: Ornks (20/12 essence for LV 9, Survival 64, DPS 13 w/ Stun)

Magic Creations, Best to Worst

Tier 1: Gazers . . . (28/22 essence for LV 20, Survival 198, DPS 153 w/ Charm + Status Rave)
Tier 1: Eyebeasts (41/32 essence for LV 21, Survival 202, DPS 159 w/ Null + Status Rave)
- Strong ranged ST DPS which also spams inconsistent but strong statuses
- Nullity is situationally fight-winning, and uses Curse Resistance, which is rare
- Dominate is situationally fight-winning
- Incredibly flexible creations, limited only by your tactical imagination
- Can even tack on Wrack/Vulnerable access if needed
- Eyebeasts are expensive, but just one makes a big difference
- Extra Gazers can be fairly affordable, as they don't all need Dominate

 

Tier 2: Glaahks . . . (27/17 essence for LV 16, Survival 268, DPS 59 w/ Stun spam)
Tier 3: Ur-Glaahks (34/22 essence for LV 17, Survival 243, DPS 64 w/ Stun spam + Charm)
- Stun spam is situationally fight-winning
- Dominate is situationally fight-winning, though Gazers are probably the better user
- Being restricted to melee is a limitation, but they are also among the sturdiest creations

 

For a party combining several of these 4 creations: Nullity, Dominate, and Stun attack 3 different resistances, so you'll never truly be locked out of a status-based strategy.

 

Tier 4: Artilas (11/7 essence for LV 15, Survival 117, DPS 34 or 53 w/ Poison)
- Great early game creations with an oddly powerful melee attack
- Better than Fyoras until you have the essence/stats to take advantage of good AoE spam

 

Tier 5: Vlish (13/10 essence for LV 13, Survival 109, DPS 32 w/ Curse)
- Not very good, but being the only consistent way to place Curse gives it a potential niche

 

Tier 5: Searing Artila (24/12 essence for LV 16, Survival 104, DPS 38 w/ AoE spam + Acid)
- Similar to a Fyora, but costs twice as much
- Does have access to both acid (ranged) and poison (melee), for a situational DoT inclusion

 

Tier Nope: Charged Vlish (18/14 essence for LV 14, Survival 116, DPS 39 w/ Vulnerable)
- Like Vlish, but more expensive, and there are better Vulnerable sources (like Gazers)

 

Tier Nope: Cockatrice (32/20 essence for LV 21, Survival 192, DPS 74 w/ Stun/Daze)
- A bit like a Glaahk that only tries to stun half the time
- Requires picking up canisters all over the distant bits of the map to even achieve these stats
 

I thought Ur-Drakon did great with an AOE attacks plus the DPS main skill 

[ClawBug]

I play this game on torment

and now I have seven gazer. gazer is so powerful not only it's normal damge(with correct equipment its one single shot can reach 200-300 damage same with the darkon)but also it's status effect (stun terrified null field dominated related to three kinds of res).it can easily frozen your enemy no matter what it is. so we don't need tank any more.

it also has decent AoE skill which will not cause friendly fire(like Drakon).

so for the best top tier creature I think

gazer>drakon>rotghroths

[utelektr]

Am I correct that Fyoras don't have an upgrade that increases their ranged damage? The Magical Skill upgrade doesn't affect ranged damage I believe, only the Agility (or whatever it's called) upgrade

[Mechalibur]

Magic skill upgrades their ranged attack since that does magic damage.

[Aoslare]

Yeah.  This is incredibly annoying -- these tooltips have been misleading ever since the first Geneforge more than 20 years ago.  I don't know why Jeff refuses to change them to something clearer.

[alhoon]

Magic skill also increased their cone attack damage too. 

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

So on the topic of creation upgrades: What does boosting strength do for a Glaakh?

 

Their main attack deals energy damage and is boosted by magic skill.

Their cone attack does energy damage and is boosted by magic skill.

 

Their terror skill is a magic effect and is boosted by magic skill.

 

Strength boosts... their carry weight? Wait, creations do not have carry weight. (No Glaakhs wearing sweaters in this setting, no sir.)

 

So does strength do nothing for them?

[Mechalibur]

Pretty sure it does nothing for them, yeah.

[ultra112]

Btw does anyone here felt that the Stalkthorn is rather disconnected with the story, I mean there are absolutely zero mention of it and it made me feel like it's just there for the sake of being there as a kickstarter creation.

Edited April 2 by ultra112

[Aoslare]

Which is interesting given that there is actual mention of other plant-type enemy creations in the story.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Seems like a wasted opportunity, given that the whole Drypeak mountains are a failed experiment in getting plant life to flourish in inhospitable terrain and that many of the life forms that did flourish turned out to be horrible thorny indestructible weeds.

 

Would have made perfect sense to add some backstory about a Shaper trying to create a tree that would seek out water only to end up with an ambulant plant that was only good for killing things, so he then spliced it with a turret. Or something to that effect.

[Randomizer]

Drypeak is filled with plant research, so adding a book somewhere to mention it would have been easy.

[utelektr]

On 4/1/2024 at 9:51 PM, Mechalibur said:

Magic skill upgrades their ranged attack since that does magic damage.

 

On 4/1/2024 at 11:22 PM, Slarti said:

Yeah.  This is incredibly annoying -- these tooltips have been misleading ever since the first Geneforge more than 20 years ago.  I don't know why Jeff refuses to change them to something clearer.

If this is true, then the damage tooltip for their basic ranged attack is wrong as well, because it only shows the increase from the additional damage die it gets from going up a level. 

[Mechalibur]

It's not wrong - the damage dice don't increase from stats, the damage multiplier does. So check the percentage next to the damage range after increase magic skill.

Edited April 3 by Mechalibur

[alhoon]

On 4/1/2024 at 1:12 AM, Slarzahl said:

Tier Nope: Cryoas . . . . (18/9 essence for LV 15, Survival 153, DPS 37 w/ Daze)

 

On 4/1/2024 at 1:12 AM, Slarzahl said:

Tier Nope: Clawbugs (11/8 essence for LV 13, Survival 136, DPS 32 w/ Poison)
- Only slightly cheaper than its upgraded version and much worse

 

I am trying there... I do. But no. I can't make these work yet at my essence level. 

I just want a Cryoa and a clawbug! But it is really not working. 

I was at level 6 and I couldn't spare the essence for very suboptimal creations.

I went to level 7 and I could make a clawbug or cryoa but: 

Clawbug: My fire shaping is 7, my battle shaping with that special gear is 3. I have 3 levels for Fyoras, I have 1 level for clawbugs. It is not going to work. 
The math says that the Steel Clawbug is better but... I cannot afford the essence and I would need to pump it with levels to put it at a respectable level 10. 

 

Cryoa: That was the real surprise. Cryoa should be as good as Fyora, even if more expensive right? Right? 
Well, no. No haste. No spam-that-cone (I play on normal so Friendly fire is not an issue for me). In the end... I made another Fyora and with the extra essence that I would need to put the 2 upgrades (cone and resistance) to the Cryoa, I pumped up my Fyoras to level 12. A severe disappointment there. (Yes, I know I could have simply made a 5th fyora for the 16 essence I put to pump my 4 Fyoras to level 12). 

It is crazy that the Cryoa is worse than the Fyora even if you do not account for the greater essence cost. Yes, it does a little more damage. But if you factor in the haste for the Fyoras, it doesn't. Yes, Cryoa's cone is a little better. But you use it once per 3 rounds, when 4 Fyoras will reliably get -5- cones out every turn.  

Edited April 6 by alhoon

[alhoon]

Analysis from my very own run: 

Drayk compared to Fyora: A Drayk with haste, cone, fast recovery costs 26 essence. I have Drayk training 1 because Drayk prices are high. 

A Fyora with haste, cone, recovery AND 2 magic upgrades to be equal level with the Drayk and Fyora training 3 is 16 essence. 

The Drayk has hp like 2 Fyoras and does 50% more damage than a Fyora thus boosted. Long story short: At least in early-mid game, 2 drayks are ballpark as good as 3 Fyoras. And 2 drayks cost as much as 3 such Fyoras. 

 

I am pretty sure that is not optimized, but I love it regardless. 

[JohnD19723]

Playing as a Shaper, I do feel having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations.

[alhoon]

22 minutes ago, JohnD19723 said:

Playing as a Shaper, I do feel having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations.

yes, but at one point you run out of slots. 
Since I am not at that level, instead of buying up Fire Shaping to give my creations +1 level, I bought Mastery so I can afford another drakon. 

[JDubkins]

On 3/31/2024 at 5:12 PM, Slawbug said:

Tier Nope: Rotdhizons . (33/26 essence for LV 19, Survival 459, DPS 151 w/ Acid + DoT Boost)

 

I mean, I get it, for the essence cost... But also, I've had insane milage out of my Rotdhizon on higher difficulties. 

 

The survival element is insane, and the AOE acid attack does significantly greater damage per hit than the rotghroth's acid spray attack. Not to mention the ability to cover an entire battlefield in acid regardless of directionality stacks a huge amount of damage over time. 

 

That said, battle Shaping is insane. My Loyalist Shaper, at level 11, was able to take down Tuldaric with investments practically only in Battle Shaping and Essence Mastery, and it wasn't a difficult fight. Side with Zachary early, and you can get 4th tier battle creations early. Now, a strong gust of wind, and I'm down. But if I stay free and clear, it's been shocking how easy the game is even at the highest difficulties.

[alhoon]

If you invest ONLY in one type of Shaping and Essence mastery, then yes, most battles won't be hard. But you wouldn't be able to open half the locks or talk to people. And blessing magic is IMO, a must for a Shaper. 

[Aoslare]

The necessary investment in Mechanics and Leadership is pretty tiny.

 

> having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations

 

I mean, "upgrades" vary wildly in how good they are.  For the most part I agree with this sentiment, but there are some key upgrades for many creations that are absolutely worth it.

[alhoon]

3 hours ago, Slawbug said:

The necessary investment in Mechanics and Leadership is pretty tiny.

 

> having more creation at zero upgrade has a better outcome than spending essence on upgrades of fewer creations

 

I mean, "upgrades" vary wildly in how good they are.  For the most part I agree with this sentiment, but there are some key upgrades for many creations that are absolutely worth it.

Haste for example, or the blast cones for drayks/Fyoras come to mind!

[alhoon]

Can we get some analysis for Overrun? It is not urgent; I am pretty far in the game to restart it, but I would be helpful. 

[Aoslare]

Have you actually played Overrun, alhoon?  Please read the codex.