Finished it, Dont Like THIS GAME [Spoilers]

[RedBeard]

Let me start by I was the one eagerly awaiting this game, had marked the days on calander and was literly counting days and stayed up till 12.01 AM to be the first one to get it. I am huge fan of jeff and his games.....

 

This Game: I **** Hate IT and I got the worst possible ending ever.... broke my heart

 

Upgraded All the forts and installed all the shops in including bakeries and breweries.

Changed All 2 governors both of whom ended up betraying me. Tried to stay as true as to possible to Queen while being totally apologetic to Rokaj and making all the atones for all wrong heaven did. 

 

Saved the grooves except one tree I had to kill as I never go the dialogue of taking out the sword when you stand next to it. Druid fought me for this Krug Prova.

 

There was a secret tunnel near the ice gate two where the rebel army was staying but there was no way i could get it open which was real shame as it frustrated me to no end @Randomizer @Randomizer

 

Helped everyone, cleared underworld, all the mines, all the crypts etc etc

 

Had to blow up the walls as there was no other way

 

Went to the Krug Prova and killed that B!$*# Gentle Cost Wolf Pretender. Won the battle there where everyone fought against me including the druids, low dhaga, gentle coast, etc etc

 

I had given edicts against the human sacrifice and chaining the women as any normal person would do and that ended up angering the Ro and Trying to being fair to them and removing the governors ended up pissing my mum.

 

 

Thing that broke my heart?

 

Rebels still destroyed my precious Ro, Governors ended up betraying me. Killing Wolf and Winning at Krug Pova made no whatsoever difference. I loft favor at Queen's Court. My Sister ended as good as od-ing on heroin. mother cast me aside even though i was the one giving orders and bothers went into exile

 

can there be any worst ending?

 

I dont like you for ruing this amazing game for me Jeff Vogel  

 

 

-------------

Edit:

removed all wrong hateful words, am sorry because I was too emotionally distraught at getting worst possible ending while having the best intentions and doing everything goood

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by RedBeard

[Randomizer]

You can change the governors and not have them betray you, but then you need to make some morally repugnant choices.

 

Jeff likes games where there are no good choices. No one is right.

 

My view of some games is kill them all and let Jeff sort it out.

[TheUmbra]

I also struggled with the choices in QW2 and didn't get the outcome (yet) that I wanted. But the same for me with QW1. I replayed that 2-3 times before I nailed an outcome I wanted to carry over to QW2. I imagine it will take me a replay or 2 to get the QW2 outcome I want as well. No rush, QW3 is a while away. I enjoyed the replays and seeing the different outcomes.

 

With the QW series I think Jeff has deepened the choices compared to earlier games and they reflect harsher in the outcomes. I like the challenge to get the outcome I want. Though yeah there are probably some repugnant choices to make to try and keep everybody happy…

[dgomez]

In QW1 it was much easier to achieve good results, like you could place best possible (morally) vassals (Owen, Ahriel opposition and Brokk clan) and still have a good favor of queen.
In QW 2 if you switch governors, your family will literally start to hate you a.k.a you are some kind of a clown and having other governors doesn't guarantee that provinces won't join the rebels. Personally I loved the second part of the series much more and I was really sad to read Jeff's words in the instructions where he says that this may be his last new game series.
But I think I am satisfied with my ending. Merciful, have a good stance with Ro, provinces didn't join the rebellion (even though both of them attacked me on Prova Krug, it was funny when the druidess I killed there appeared in the ending as though she lived. A bug maybe?), switched both governors (and they handled the situation perfectly), supported sacrifices, but wasn't in favor of how women were treated in Low Draga (that's why theft ratings bothered me until the end - suffered penalties and wasn't able to build all breweries because of a lack of stone). BTW, I tried not going to the Prova Krug first and then both governors did fail me: Abelin had to run and Raasa Lawrita betrayed me.
All in all, rebellion was crushed with minimum casualties, but Sutter and the queen consider me a clown. The only thing that upsets me is that I wasn't able to change the Low Dragan's tradition of treating women this way, because I didn't have a queen's favor. Not that I care, because Nisse's dreams still guarantee that my character will become a ruler.
I wonder if it's possible to have good reputation of both Ro and the Queen though. Maybe not changing the governors could have given me that, but I am not sure.

Edited August 31, 2022 by dgomez

[Davies]

I think you can change one governor and still have a mostly positive Queen reputation, but not both.

[Randomizer]

Each governor choice is a 10 change in reputation for both Ro and Queen's faction.

 

You can still please the Queen if you made enough right choices talking through the mirror and with judgements.

[dgomez]

Seems like I should replay it then. Does something depend on a difficulty level though? 160 Ro reputation to avoid Prova Krug fight with druids is one thing. Maybe it affects other interactions too.

[Mechalibur]

From what I can tell in the scripts, difficulty affects the check by 10 per level above casual. Difficulty only seems to be relevant for those two checks (whether you're attacked by Kranas and/or Low Dhaga in Prova Krug).

[Mea Tulpa]

@RedBeard and anyone else listening,

 

Just a quick friendly mod reminder that criticism is 100% OK here, but telling people you hate them is not.

 

Also, the board tries to be "family friendly" and cursing (including "masked cursing" as the board guidelines put it) is on the list of "don'ts" as well.  This isn't something we try to be super strict about but if there is a ton of cursing in a single post, even mild cursing... it might be worth taking a deep breath and saying things a little less vehemently.

 

Totally understand how frustrating things can be... just please consider a more peaceful approach.  Thanks.  Now back to your regularly scheduled exploitative colonialism.

[Ruslan]

I was fully expecting to get a bad ending too. Jeeves told me that the Rokaj hated and distrusted Haven more than before, I only replaced Yvette as governor, dreamt with the Nisse, went full Girl Power in the Low Dhaga and everyone chose to fight me at Prova Krug. Despite all that, I managed to retain the favour of the Queen, the rebellion wasn't as large as expected and things in the palace weren't a total disaster (aside from everyone being constantly exhausted and the Queen having a couple of senior citizen moments).

 

Only thing I found surprising was that the Kranas Woods sided against me, despite the fact that I replaced Yvette, let the human sacrifices continue, didn't burn the groves and replanted the Tehrorman Tree without killing it. I guess they just didn't like the cut of my jib.

 

Bittersweet endings are usually more satisfying anyway. Something usually doesn't feel right when everything goes according to plan.

 

I took the Nisse's poison gifts and expected that to come back and bite me in the poop chute at the end, but I guess the Rokaj branch are a little less spiteful than the Sacramentum branch. Either that or I'm going to get my soul stolen in QW3, but that's future me's problem.

[Amira The Hot Potato]

I just found it weird that Sutter was upset with me for 

Spoiler

commanding the troops when he wasn't available and for the Queen praising me for what I did in Rojak

 

Also in QW1 you could either choose to serve Haven, ask to be king/queen or live a life of leisure but the reality apparently is you can

Spoiler

choose to serve Haven or piss your family off completely

 

[Mechalibur]

That's because Sutter's a jerk.

 

Well okay, it's a little more than that. He's been at the Queen's beck and call for the last few days, violently putting down rebellions across Haven's territory. It's definitely weighing on him, but he puts up with it because he knows he has to shoulder that burden in order to be Haven's king someday. Yet when his expertise is actually needed, it's his layabout brother/sister that ends up having the authority to make the decision. Then the queen celebrates you, saying what an amazing servant of Haven you are, even though he's been doing his duties for far longer and never got to experience all the rest and leisure his youngest sibling did. 

 

I'm not justifying how Sutter's acting, of course, but I think it makes sense given his character.

[Randomizer]

6 hours ago, Ruslan said:

I took the Nisse's poison gifts and expected that to come back and bite me in the poop chute at the end, but I guess the Rokaj branch are a little less spiteful than the Sacramentum branch. Either that or I'm going to get my soul stolen in QW3, but that's future me's problem.

It depends upon what you ask the Nisss for in the last room. Selfless choice here may lead to a different outcome in the next game.

[Amira The Hot Potato]

13 minutes ago, Mechalibur said:

That's because Sutter's a jerk.

 

Well okay, it's a little more than that. He's been at the Queen's beck and call for the last few days, violently putting down rebellions across Haven's territory. It's definitely weighing on him, but he puts up with it because he knows he has to shoulder that burden in order to be Haven's king someday. Yet when his expertise is actually needed, it's his layabout brother/sister that ends up having the authority to make the decision. Then the queen celebrates you, saying what an amazing servant of Haven you are, even though he's been doing his duties for far longer and never got to experience all the rest and leisure his youngest sibling did. 

 

I'm not justifying how Sutter's acting, of course, but I think it makes sense given his character.

I understood the storyline. I meant was that's not our character's fault/problem :v

[Davies]

5 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

That's because Sutter's a jerk.

For which read, is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder in a world that has never even heard of it.

 

And is a jerk on top of that, but his worst behavior comes from a serious mental health issue. When you ask him to come help you at Prova Krug, though, he states that he would if he were permitted. He's the only person in the whole game who says he wants to help you, there. I make allowances in consideration for that.

[Amira The Hot Potato]

3 hours ago, Davies said:

For which read, is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder in a world that has never even heard of it.

 

And is a jerk on top of that, but his worst behavior comes from a serious mental health issue. When you ask him to come help you at Prova Krug, though, he states that he would if he were permitted. He's the only person in the whole game who says he wants to help you, there. I make allowances in consideration for that.

Based on certain conversations with him, I do feel bad for him. Killing people wears you down mentally and physically. I also feel bad for Delia

[Amira The Hot Potato]

I'm very surprised to learn that Raasa Elha is actually

Spoiler

The "wolf". wasn't expecting that at all

As far as the Queen's illness, does it have anything to do with the

Spoiler

Nisse? There was mention in QW1 they took part of her soul

but I don't think that in itself would kill her?

[Mechalibur]

Yeah, the Wolf twist was pretty surprising to me. I liked it, though. Prova Krug felt like a better climax than the Nisse tower, anyway.

 

It's hard to say if Sharyn's illness is Nisse-related or not. We still know so little about them.

[madrigan]

I think the key to this series, as well as Avadon, is that your character is the bad guy. You can make better or worse moral choices, but in the end you're still an imperial elite who relies on violence and fear to accomplish your goals. I'd love to be able to join the rebels and overthrow the monarchy, but that is obviously not going to be an option. In Avernum you nearly always end up the hero, in Geneforge it can go several ways, but in Avadon and Queen's Wish you are just a tiny gear in the death machine no matter what your title. I've finished all the Avernums, all the Avadons, a few Geneforges and both QWs and I think my favorite ending is Avernum V. You're still working for the Empire, but you can make things a little better, and you live out your life in Avernum which is ultimately a freer place than the surface world. 

[Mechalibur]

You can still make things better for quite a few people at least.

 

If you promise to help the Dhagan women and keep a high enough Ro reputation despite that, things do change for the better and they gain more freedoms. Helping the Kranas druids allows their groves to heal, and will likely stay that way if you sacked Yvette. I can only imagine Low Dhaga will be better off with Lawita in charge - he gets to keep his post if your reputation with the Queen is high enough.

 

High Lithia is probably still going to be full of ghosts no matter what happens. Oh well.

[dgomez]

15 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

Yeah, the Wolf twist was pretty surprising to me. I liked it, though. Prova Krug felt like a better climax than the Nisse tower, anyway.

 

It's hard to say if Sharyn's illness is Nisse-related or not. We still know so little about them.

Spoiler

I guessed it immediately, because you literally meet her outside (in the tower) travelling alone doing unknown stuff (near the territories of some rebellious provinces). But then she dies while being in the town... There were also no other possible candidates to be the Wolf if we even consider it a mystery (maybe only some of our daddy's friends).
So... No, it was extremely predictable. More than that I was quite surprised (in a negative way) that you can't become her ally. Kinda unusual for Jeff here. All her contacts with me through the mirror proved to be pointless.
Also kinda funny that if you don't go to the Prova Krug, the endings slides imply that the player knows that she is the Wolf and don't give him any additional information. I think this is an oversight.

 

[Mechalibur]

Okay, well I was surprised. Congrats on being such a smart cookie.

[Amira The Hot Potato]

Anddd there could be so many explanations for certain things. Some people read too much into things and some people just don't. You figured it out. Great. some didn't💁‍♀️

[mikeprichard]

On 8/31/2022 at 5:44 PM, dgomez said:

on Prova Krug, it was funny when the druidess I killed there appeared in the ending as though she lived. A bug maybe?

Hope you don't mind that I mentioned this to Jeff on Steam, since I know he's working to fix potentially more serious bugs/plot holes for version 1.0.2 and beyond, and he generally doesn't read the forums here - https://steamcommunity.com/app/1947750/discussions/0/3427823723510153332

If you really think this was a bug and have more info to share with him there, please feel free! (He doesn't see how this could have happened without more info.) If not, no worries of course.

Edited September 4, 2022 by mikeprichard

[Ordra]

Since this is kind of turning into the place for people to talk about the game after finishing it, I guess I'll chime in.

 

I'm pretty sure I got the ending that would have satisfied me the most, in that the Ro's uppitiness was minimized to the point that those who insisted on a second rebellion ended up barely qualifying as an uprising. The only group of Ro the rebels had any kind of success with, and even then it was extremely minimal, was the Low Dhagans. Probably because I insisted they treat their women better. Also had to fight them at the Prova Krug. Again, I'm assuming because I told them I was going to change how they treat their women.

 

I also ended up earning the highest threshold of the Queen's favor, so she was pretty happy with how I handled things.

 

I'll admit I ended up using the Reputation thread to help figure out some of the things I wanted to say. Though fortunately the options that gave me the needed numbers more often than not matched up with what I actually wanted to say. (For reference, my reputations ended up being 142 with the Queen, 168 with the Ro, and 103 for Violence.)

 

It always amuses me the value that some people place on blood ties. The number of times a Ro thought I absolutely had to be invested in the freedom of the Ro simply because the PC's dad was Ro, even though they died when the PC was so young that they don't really remember him and the only time they ever even visited their lands was also during a time in which they were too young to remember it? Like I said, amusing.

 

Not only did I not care, but if I'm going to be honest I didn't really like the Ro. There were individuals I thought were fine, but as a whole? Well, you can't say Queen's Wish doesn't do a good job of turning you into a sneering imperialist. Not a surprise, though. I wasn't fond of the vassals in the first game either. Not that it wasn't fun interacting with them. Though I guess one area where the "Ro blood flowed true" was that I spent most of the game shamelessly telling people what they wanted to hear regardless of if it was the actual truth or not.

 

Sadly, I wasn't able to fully upgrade all of my forts. I was short two Apothecaries because I just didn't have enough Stone in the end. Maybe I didn't accept enough bribes? Or maybe it was a consequence of kicking the bad governors to the curb, so I wasn't able to fully exploit the Kranas Woods. Wasn't a dealbreaker. Just surprised that Stone was my shortage when Quicksilver is the resource the game is stingy with.

 

Though I guess one thing that confuses me is the encounter with the Nisse. Mostly in that you can stumble upon them trying to set up ship in the region, and regardless of whether or not you evict them you never actually tell anyone that the baddies who caused so many problems in Sacramentum showed up in the Rokaj.

 

I refused their offer of a wish, which really made them angry. And as for the bit with the Queen's spirit . . . Well . . . They say that they no longer have that piece of her soul anymore because her dying of her illness is causing it to fade away, but I do have to wonder if that's supposed to be them getting petty revenge. That they did some ritual sacrifice of the fragment to give her whatever terminal disease is afflicting her.

 

Honestly, the most interesting bit of the ending was that one of her biggest regrets is she didn't conquer a new vassal during her reign. So maybe the third game will be about the PC taking part in the subjugation of a new vassal rather than reasserting control over an older one?

 

All in all? I'm glad I played and I can't wait for Queen's Wish 3. Which I guess would come after the remake of Geneforge 2?

 

Oh, and just for fun. I'm going to go ahead and share my ending code.

 

qw2csbbfydajrgq

[Mechalibur]

Interesting that you didn't have enough stone. That was the one resources I had in abundance, although I think that's because I hardly made any mills. Quicksilver was the biggest limiting factor for me, although apparently you get some more of it if you burn groves down.

 

I liked how the Ro were characterized. It felt like there were a lot more differences and variations between them than many of the vassal states in QW1. It also helped that Ro characters both had a communal identify (The Ro as a whole, including their Deep Truth) and a regional one (Gentle Coast/Low Dhaga/Kranas/Lithia). The Ahriel, Ukat, and Vol kind of felt like they were all in their own independent worlds.

[mikeprichard]

I counted up the resources available throughout the game from Randomizer's list, and compared them against the requirements to build all 10 structures in all 7 forts (just to compare - I know building all 70 isn't possible), and after quicksilver, stone is in fact the second most limiting resource by a fairly wide margin, with iron then wood being distant 3rd and 4th. I think Randomizer mentioned in one of his big topics that iron is 2nd, but that's probably a holdover from QW1 when I think that was the case. Of course, if you choose not to build too many structures that use a lot of stone (and there are several), you may not notice, but there it is.

[Ordra]

I didn't miss it by much, which is why I think I missed it because of either bribes I didn't take or possibly because I saved the groves. Leaning towards the latter, because there was a quartermaster in the first fort that gave me a quest explicitly to kill the groves that probably would have given me some stone along with the additional wood.

 

Honestly, I probably could have just built the apothecaries instead of slapping down more mills/distilleries/bakeries. I didn't really need the the additional discounts, but I was curious if there was one more tier of quality where the alcohol and baked goods would go from "close enough" to "really good".

 

And to talk a little more about the Ro, I do think they were interesting. I just wasn't really wowed by their love of raiding or how most of them hate the Gentle Coast because they realized they don't have to raid anymore. Or that they have a literal culture police that employs an assassin guild for the express purpose of killing anyone they think doesn't act suitably Ro. There were just little things like that that made me feel the region would actually be worse off if Haven wasn't keeping them in line.

[Mechalibur]

Oh sure, that's definitely a valid opinion. The Dhagans especially cause a lot of problems.

[dgomez]

I also didn't have enough stone. Those are my resources by the end of the game and I wasn't able to build 3 breweries. I had 27 wood, 0 stone, 9 iron and 5 quicksilver. Guess Dhagans are really a bothersome bunch.

Edited September 5, 2022 by dgomez

[Shaper_Mario]

The thing I was hurting for most by the end was money. I belt plenty of mills and bakeries, but crafting and upgrading my gear definitely took a toll on my finances. Did anyone else feel a bit pinched on cash while playing? I guess one thing I should have done was sell more charms as they stopped being useful, and there are a few monsters that I could have killed for their hoards.

[Mechalibur]

Yes, money is a lot tighter in this game. I kind of like it though, it actually makes rejecting bribes harder and has me considering where to spend my money more. QW1 and Mutagen by comparison I was swimming in cash.

[Randomizer]

Money got tight if I kept too many named items instead of selling the ones I would no longer use.

 

It also depends on whether you take bribes and demand money from the Litha governor.

[Ordra]

Yeah. Money could be tight. Any time I found myself happy to be building a cushion, "Oh. Look at that. I built enough blacksmiths/weavers/carpenters to upgrade my gear."

 

And then I was back to being basically penniless.

 

But that's what gear is for, so it doesn't really feel punishing to run low.

[RedBeard]

On 9/1/2022 at 12:08 PM, handle with air said:

@RedBeard and anyone else listening,

 

Just a quick friendly mod reminder that criticism is 100% OK here, but telling people you hate them is not.

 

Also, the board tries to be "family friendly" and cursing (including "masked cursing" as the board guidelines put it) is on the list of "don'ts" as well.  This isn't something we try to be super strict about but if there is a ton of cursing in a single post, even mild cursing... it might be worth taking a deep breath and saying things a little less vehemently.

 

Totally understand how frustrating things can be... just please consider a more peaceful approach.  Thanks.  Now back to your regularly scheduled exploitative colonialism.

 

Really Sorry, I was emotionally distraught with the worst ending

 

I edited my post removed all hateful words.

[Owenmoz]

Hey everyone! Im back to say I actually rly didnt enjoy this game either!!!

 

On a technical level it was fun. The combat the abilities the crafting all of that worked great.

 

I also do like that the country clearly wasn't pleased with being colonised and there wasnt any beating around the bush about it. We also got to see more of the evils that colonialism does as opposed to QW1.

 

(I still think Avernum 5 and Avadon in general do a better job out of it but also i played those games a long time ago so maybe my opinion would be changed by now)

 

I however just dont see how the ending makes sense. 

 

Especially the queen's judgement of you holding any power when everyone can see that she is unwell. All the actions i've put a lot of effort into building throughout the game being completely undermined and reversed over that, doesnt feel great and seems to wish for a more spineless approach. 

 

On the other hand really loved how they complexified the relationships and characters that your siblings have. Very well done. But in its own way unsatisfactory since there is nothing you can do about it. And it definitely seems odd that both of them are in line with the Queen's Wish when its clearly harming them a lot.

 

And it kinda sucks that this is the series that has a carry over code for the next games since it seems to reward a slash and burn strategy because the colonies themselves don't seem matter as much as your familial relationships at the end of it. So sacrifice a few colonies for more power in the court so that maybe some day your actions might actually make a difference? 

 

I value the nuances presented and like how they require the player to be very thoughtful and careful about what they do. In particular having in mind that this is a diplomatic mission and well... Diplomats are supposed to give sweet nothings. But i think with the enourmous stakes here it isnt fair to give such a complex navigation of reputation in a circumstance where you have limited power.

 

I think moral ambiguity is well served by having all endings as good depending on the things that the players choices seemed to value or promote. Even if each ending may point out some of the evils you've deliberately or accidentally contributed to. 

 

Terrible shame. I had been rly excited about this and its one of the few games i got on the release date. 

 

Then again i do feel like a lot of the criticism i have may also be a reflection of how things are going now a days. I simply had more time for video games when i was younger so i think i'd have been better able to endure a bad ending back then. I think crazy canister endings and corruption water endings were categorically bad. And i started over to get a good one. I just dont quite see myself doing the same here and im not sure if thats a lot about the game or my lack of time. 

[marnick]

I'm still playing but I'm trying to play into the Ro's hand because if I ever challenge Sutter to be king, it helps to have 2 strong vassals on my side. Because that's how it's always been in history, you can't depose a king without support of a strong military faction. This is also why I need the governors to be indebted to me, to support my inevitable rebellion. That shouldn't make me a clown, it should make me a real threat.

 

It's probably going to ruin the ending for me, but I'm roleplaying this the way it makes sense to me.

[Faerie Storm]

On 8/31/2022 at 7:59 PM, Davies said:

I think you can change one governor and still have a mostly positive Queen reputation, but not both.

I changed both govenors and still had a mostly positive reputation with the queen.

 

Spoiler

The biggest thing that loses you reptutaion with her is insulting stutter or talking about her illness in public. If you do that right and for "most" of the game save many a few points (govenor's aside) do things to keep the status quo (like sending that low dagha women back to her family etc. Then you can change both AND get a good rep with your mother. I even improved the treatment of women in low dagha, but simply lised to the rassa/govner saying I wasn't going to change things. Even though in the end I did AND he kept his position

 Not sure if you can do that without racking up a high violence record though I had issues there...

 

And high rep with the Rokaj AND I challenged stutter for his kingship and she was STILL happy with me overall

 

this was my ending code: (and I carried over from game 1 where I also challenged stutter for the crown openly in front of the court.

qw2chqogidujasp

Edited September 9, 2022 by Faerie Storm
added more info

[TheUmbra]

I finished my 2nd play through and got a satisfactory result. (I need to catch up on sleep though 😬) I was very diplomatic this time, but also ruthlessly violent at times. The Queen proclaimed me a hero of Haven. I openly challenged Sutter for the throne same as I had done in QW1.
 

Spoiler

I didn't manage to stop the war (if that is even possible) but at Prova Kruug only Raasa Elha chose to combat me, the other Raasas stepped down. I had only replaced Governor Yvette. (After the talk down the Queen gave me the last play through, I didn't dare replace more Governors.) During the war only rebels from Low Dhaga joined in. The Kranas Woods and High Litha stayed out of it. I ordered General Miranda to harshly put down the rebellion.

 

I did not kill Geld Nas members other than to defend myself. I passed their test. I stayed away from the Nisse (don't trust them and hope in QW3 I finally get a chance to combat them).

 

My code:

qw2crqagndshdfa

[Mah Al Ibara]

I had actually been thinking of posting a similar review when I found this one. Thinking back, Jeff as never offered simple happy endings, but I think previously (Avernum and Geneforge, and whatever Avernum was called before it was rebooted as Avernum), there were at least "happy enough" endings. In Queen's Wish, Jeff seems to be reflecting on imperialism generally (and I think most people would agree that the Ro is an unsubtle metaphor for Afghanistan, the place that has been breaking empires for millennia), but he doesn't allow for the destruction of imperialism itself. I don't want to be queen. I want to end the Haven Empire. In both QW1 and QW2, whenever the protagonist suggests that maybe empire is bad and shouldn't exist, everyone reacts as if she's spewing gibberish. Considering that even Delia is like "It is what it is; we can't expect ethics or morality," it is hard to imagine the series ever getting to the point where the protagonist can outright fight Haven/Sutter/Sharyn. But shouldn't an RPG leave the player feeling some sense of satisfaction at the end? QW just makes me feel hopeless and frustrated. (I am almost finished my second run.) The real world sucks. Can't we have something approaching an ideal world, or at least something to aspire to, in our fantasies?

 

[EDIT] I have started my 5th playthrough, so obviously I do not dislike the game as much as I did a month ago. LOL I find that by keeping the queen happy, I can achieve satisfactory endings. Twice in a row, I've achieved improved rights for women in the Low Dhaga, and the Queen even let Lawita remain governor. If you antagonize Sutter/the Queen (the same thing, for all intents and purposes), you will end the game with zero influence in the world, and an unsatisfactory ending. There isn't really a downside to keeping the royal family reasonably happy, but there's a huge downside to not doing so. Even if you eventually hope, in future installments, to give Sutter the shiv and take the throne for yourself, or bring down the Haven empire entirely, being ornery now doesn't seem to help you get closer to that goal.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Mah Al Ibara

[Mea Tulpa]

Exile/Avernum 1-3 definitely have very happy, heroic endings.

 

10 hours ago, Mah Al Ibara said:

I think most people would agree that the Ro is an unsubtle metaphor for Afghanistan

Uh... wow!  Interesting idea, but based on google, it appears that literally no people have expressed this idea.  I can see the applicability.  But what makes you feel like it's such a targeted metaphor for Afghanistan specifically?

 

11 hours ago, Mah Al Ibara said:

But shouldn't an RPG leave the player feeling some sense of satisfaction at the end? QW just makes me feel hopeless and frustrated. (I am almost finished my second run.) The real world sucks. Can't we have something approaching an ideal world, or at least something to aspire to, in our fantasies?

Once upon a time the vast majority of RPGs had simple, happy endings.  There's more variety now, but I'd argue that the majority of them still do.  I don't think every RPG needs to be the same in this regard.

[Mah Al Ibara]

2 hours ago, le retour des marmottes météorologues said:

Exile/Avernum 1-3 definitely have very happy, heroic endings.

 

Uh... wow!  Interesting idea, but based on google, it appears that literally no people have expressed this idea.  I can see the applicability.  But what makes you feel like it's such a targeted metaphor for Afghanistan specifically?

Afghanistan is famously "the graveyard of empires." There's a whole Wikipedia article on the topic. This particular passage could have been written about the Ro:

The difficulty in invading Afghanistan was attributed to the prevalence of fortress-like qalats, the deserts, the mountainous terrain of Afghanistan, its severe winter and its enduring clan loyalties

 

The emphasis of the High Litha on Haven's "decadence," the extreme oppression of women in the Low Dhaga...I assumed everyone interpreted this the same way I did.

[Mea Tulpa]

I see the possible applicability to Afghanistan, sure.  But I mean, "inhospitable terrain for an invasion" applies to lots of places; "decadence" has been used as a moral attack against foreign enemies for pretty much the entire scope of human history; and likewise the oppression of women has, unfortunately, been a thing in almost every part of the world.  I don't think there's any shortage of places this can apply to.

 

On the flip side, SW describes the Ro as "wild," "brutal," and as "barbarians."  Seems pretty unlikely they'd do that if they had a comparison with a specific area of the modern world in mind.

[Mechalibur]

It's an interesting parallel, for sure, although I also don't think it was intentionally meant as a metaphor for Afghanistan specifically.

 

Regarding the sad ending: it's worth noting the Queen's Wish series it the most connected narrative between sequels that Jeff has done before, as well as the only one that carries over the protagonist from game to game. Having the end of the second be a low point makes sense from the perspective of a powerful Game 3 climax. I know the series isn't the most popular of Spiderweb's, but this is probably my favorite Spiderweb game narratively. I'm not against happy endings or anything, but I like them better when they feel earned. 

[Randomizer]

I was trying t o find a recent blog from Jeff Vogel talking about the ending. He mentioned that in real history, there are no good endings, but inly trying to get 55% or your goals in a war. S the final game may not be satisfying either.

[Mea Tulpa]

He did give in and create the option of a satisfying ending for Geneforge 5, after G3 and G4's endings (where frankly 55% sounds generous).  I'd expect the same thing to happen here, especially if it is in fact Spiderweb's last new game story.

 

2 hours ago, Mechalibur said:

the only one that carries over the protagonist from game to game

With the possible exception of the G5 protagonist

[Mechalibur]

2 hours ago, le retour des marmottes météorologues said:

He did give in and create the option of a satisfying ending for Geneforge 5, after G3 and G4's endings (where frankly 55% sounds generous).  I'd expect the same thing to happen here, especially if it is in fact Spiderweb's last new game story.

 

With the possible exception of the G5 protagonist

 

The Geneforge 5 protagonist is actually an unsubtle metaphor for Abraham Lincoln.

[Davies]

On 2/16/2023 at 6:05 PM, Mah Al Ibara said:

In both QW1 and QW2, whenever the protagonist suggests that maybe empire is bad and shouldn't exist, everyone reacts as if she's spewing gibberish.

Yes, because the people they suggest that to are fairly invested in the existence of the empire, and, as someone who has benefited from it for their entire life up to the start of QW1, so are they.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 7:50 AM, Mah Al Ibara said:

.I assumed everyone interpreted this the same way I did.

Well, there's your problem, then.