McGuffins & Other Neat Objects

[Actaeon]

It's time for a good nerd-row. I'd make this into a poll, but there are simply too many options.

 

Chose one object or artifact from fantasy or science fiction. Base it on power, fun, asthetic appeal... I don't care. But be prepared to defend your choice against your comrades.

 

***

 

I'm going with the TARDIS. Ability to go anywhere in time and space, plus an auto-translator and the occasional immortality side-effect? Sold.

[Khoth]

I'll go with the Magus Fin from The Scar, for honesty in naming.

[Alorael at Large]

The One Ring. Really the grandfather of every ring in every RPG, in a way. Revels in MacGuffin status while also providing some small utility. Temptation and destruction! It's everything you can want in a plot device.

 

—Alorael, who also very much likes the titular swords from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn for plot-spoilery reasons. Besides, among them they cram in the key qualities of meteoric iron, religious relic, symbol of a people, and unholy fusion that should not be. Very elegant.

[Student of Trinity]

@Alorael: Mornington Crescent.

 

I have a distinct feeling that I'm forgetting at least one totally awesome Maguffin, even apart from the One Ring.

 

For my own choice I'm going to have to go with Stormbringer, the nasty black sword that kind-of belonged to Elric of Melniboné. I feel it stands out for a sort of second-order intensity of maguffinage. Stormbringer was cool, then went over the top into outright cheesiness, but then persisted until it became cool in some perverse sense once more. With strange eons, even cheese may die.

 

I created a maguffin myself, once, for a long D&D campaign. It was inspired by a useless but wicked-looking little boot knife owned by some guy I knew in the army once. So it was a small, thin, leaf-shaped dagger, of weird black metal. It was called Heart's Venom, and had properties calculated to impress.

 

It was inherently venomous, to the degree that if a character was so much as touched in an extremity, then instant amputation of the limb would allow a saving throw versus poison at -5. Otherwise, rapid death with no chance to save. Touching the hilt was as bad as being scratched by the blade. Bad knife = bad.

 

If you cut yourself with Heart's Venom and survived — which would normally require a double amputation and good luck — you could control the artifact. This conferred an immediate gain of twelve levels of magic-user ability, and if this put you over 18th level, a special ninth-level spell that required Heart's Venom as a material component, and that allowed the crafting of small private universes ('carving reality'). Exactly what that meant was never really pinned down, but it was intended to be pretty mind-boggling. Regrowing some hands was presumably easy, then, though no doubt they would turn out to be demonic alien members that looked like glass filled with smoke, or something, and would never be apt to any end but evil.

 

In this campaign, most of the most powerful NPCs were below 18th level, so a twelve-level boost would really make a demi-god. Heart's Venom had no other useful powers, though. Despite its poison, it was never intended to be particularly effective as a weapon. It was only three inches long, and I think it was supposed to be mysteriously clumsy as a fighting knife, or something.

 

At the time of the campaign, it was the most prized item in the hoard of a two-hundred-yard-long black dragon who slept in a cave under the center of a swamp the size of a small ocean. A 19th level thief eventually dug through two feet of big diamonds to steal the thing, from under the dragon's eye. It came in a tasteful little presentation box. It played a key role in a climactic scene, and was then immediately hauled off to heaven by an ascending saint. And that was a wrap.

[Alorael at Large]

@Alorael: Mornington Crescent.

 

Did I miss something?

 

—Alorael, who wasn't aware he was playing. (He wasn't, of course, by the Updated Revised Conventions, Jan. 2013.)

[Questionably Legal]

The Black Ka'kari from Night Angel. It shifts into any shape desired, grants you invisibility, night/soul vision, eats hostile magic (and anything else), accelerated healing, eternal youth, and it resurrects you even if you you somehow manage to die. Infinite times. Plus, it can talk to you, and has a snarky sense of humor. What more could a man want?

[Mosquito---Slayer]

Xian skull, No explanation needed.

Ah well, had no idea what Macsomethings were.

[Lilith]

point of order: a macguffin is a specific kind of plot device object that doesn't do anything in itself, but is important to the plot because of who wants it. if the properties of the object are important to the plot in their own right (that is, if you couldn't swap it out for a similarly rare and valuable object and have the plot still make sense), it's definitionally not a macguffin

[Actaeon]

Noted.

[Goldengirl]

Aside from Spiderweb Software games, I really like the Myst series of games. So, I'm going to pick a MacGuffin from Myst III: Exile - the Releeshahn book. Saavedro takes it at the beginning of the game, and the PC spends the entirety of the game trying to get it back. Once that happens at the end, it's handed to Atrus and that's the end of the game. It's supposed to hold an entire utopian world for a civilization, yet there's never any real satisfying exploration. In Myst V: End of Ages the PC finally gets to visit in one possible ending, getting a brief look at a garden in a cutscene.

[adc.]

It's time for a good nerd-row. I'd make this into a poll, but there are simply too many options.

 

Chose one object or artifact from fantasy or science fiction. Base it on power, fun, asthetic appeal... I don't care. But be prepared to defend your choice against your comrades.

 

***

 

I'm going wit zhis

∞[█╣╣╣╣▀▀(•)▀▀]Ξ{███████████████████████████████████████)

[The Reverend]

At first I misread and thought this was a thread about MacGyvers. How can I escape from this burning building with just duct tape, a tooth brush, and five fig newtons ...

[Student of Trinity]

Eat the Fig Newtons. All you really need is duct tape. Brush your teeth.

 

I think we should allow objects that function as maguffins even if they do also do something else. The strict maguffin is a role without a character, but objects with definite characteristics can be overwhelmed by their role, like a mediocre actor starring in a save-the-world plot. Or they can be unfired guns, whose significant characteristics somehow never actually come into play significantly, leaving maguffinage as the only actual effect. This is a broadening of the concept, but I think it's worth doing.

 

My 'Mornington Crescent' comment was just that claiming the One Ring here is like winning Mornington Crescent on the first move. I mean, well.

[Goldengirl]

Is Godot, then, a MacGuffin?

[Cairo Jim]

I've been on a massive Stargate binge again. I would pick something out of that, but can't decide.

[keira]

The elements of harmony.

 

 

[Student of Trinity]

Is Godot, then, a MacGuffin?

 

I think you have to look for a Maguffin. You can't just wait for it.

[Actaeon]

But they're so active about waiting.

[Student of Trinity]

Mmmmmyeahhhh .... but they don't actually go out and bang on any doors. Maybe we can tentatively define a Goduffin. People don't look for it or fight over it, but they make a lot of fuss about it, and yet it still doesn't really matter what it is. A lot of 'evil menace' scenarios end up being like this. Some pretty implausible 'bad thing' looms as a threat over an entire book or movie, and motivates a lot of very active activity, but it's never really anything in particular.

 

The best example that springs to mind is maybe the Dolman, from Eric van Lustbader's Sunset Warrior series. It's this super bad cosmic badness thing entity villain whatever, and it looms as a threat for most of three books. When it finally shows up, it just dies, within about half a page ... and it never does become any more definite than a thing/entity/whatever. That's a classic Goduffin, I'd say.

 

My memory is that the Dolman anticlimax didn't actually seem so anticlimactic when I read it, but I was young and undemanding at the time. In retrospect the whole series went steadily downhill from a promising start that just couldn't be sustained. As many series do.

[Triumph]

I've been on a massive Stargate binge again. I would pick something out of that, but can't decide.

 

A ZPM is the probably the most ubiquitous Macguffin of the Stargate series. Granted, they actually get used, too, but I think in a fair number of episodes they are basically just Macguffins.

[Aran]

David Eddings had the Orb of Aldur, maybe a McGuffin in the stricter sense: In-universe, since it was basically some random stone a god picked up and rolled in his hand for a couple of centuries. And outside, Eddings freely admitted that the Belgariad+Malloreon are so formulaic as to be a template for fantasy series, including the choice of McGuffin. One of his forewords listed the "ingredients" as follows:

 

Item number three is 'The Magic Thingamajig' - The Holy Grail, the Ring of Power, the Magic Sword, the Sacred Book, or (surprise, surprise) THE JEWEL. Everybody knows where I came down on that one. The Magic Thingamajig is usually, though not always, the object of the quest.

[Lilith]

Mmmmmyeahhhh .... but they don't actually go out and bang on any doors. Maybe we can tentatively define a Goduffin. People don't look for it or fight over it, but they make a lot of fuss about it, and yet it still doesn't really matter what it is. A lot of 'evil menace' scenarios end up being like this. Some pretty implausible 'bad thing' looms as a threat over an entire book or movie, and motivates a lot of very active activity, but it's never really anything in particular.

 

this post has made me want to rewatch The Fifth Element

[Swimmin' Salmon]

Excalibur. The sword.

[Tyranicus]

Eddings freely admitted that the Belgariad+Malloreon are so formulaic as to be a template for fantasy series, including the choice of McGuffin.

Then he went on to write the Elenium and the Tamuli, which was basically the same story all over again.

[Aran]

He didn't even change the color of the good and evil magical stone McGuffins.

[Student of Trinity]

this post has made me want to rewatch The Fifth Element

That's what I was also thinking of but didn't notice that I was.

 

Sorry about that.

[Questionably Legal]

point of order: a macguffin is a specific kind of plot device object that doesn't do anything in itself, but is important to the plot because of who wants it. if the properties of the object are important to the plot in their own right (that is, if you couldn't swap it out for a similarly rare and valuable object and have the plot still make sense), it's definitionally not a macguffin

A Macguffin doesn't have to be useless, just a sought after plot object, and the OP's definitely wasn't, so that definition is sort of inapplicable.

[Alorael at Large]

The title is wrong. I consider the actual contents of the first post to be the real matter under discussion. But I disagree; I think something withs specific purpose, value, or meaning loses MacGuffin status. The term is used for things of interest or value just because the plot says so; the why or how is unimportant.

 

That said, I maintain that while the One Ring and Minneyar, Jingizu, and Thorn (let's give those swords their proper names) are MacGuffins even though they have uses. The uses are incidental and the plot as a whole would survive even if the ring weren't a ring and didn't grant invisibility. (No spoilers for the swords.)

 

David Eddings also wrote the book in which he explained the formula he wrote with. At least he was up-front about it. And I'm actually still somewhat surprised by how two stories built on similar frameworks come across to me, at least, so differently. Maybe it's in part because the Garion books have stones that function entirely as MacGuffins while the Sparhawk books give the Bhelliom particular powers that make it important. It can't be replaced except by a different object with the same properties.

 

—Alorael, who is also a fan of objects that are assiduously pursued by many parties for properties that they don't actually possess. That's not a MacGuffin. He's not sure what the term is, or if there is one, and he can't think of great examples right now either. Dumbo's magic feather would be a great example if the movie were all about everyone trying to get the feather to fly even though it conveys no such ability.

[Tyranicus]

David Eddings also wrote the book in which he explained the formula he wrote with. At least he was up-front about it. And I'm actually still somewhat surprised by how two stories built on similar frameworks come across to me, at least, so differently. Maybe it's in part because the Garion books have stones that function entirely as MacGuffins while the Sparhawk books give the Bhelliom particular powers that make it important. It can't be replaced except by a different object with the same properties.

I agree that, although the two series are very similar, they also feel very different. I enjoyed the Belgariad immensely when I first read it in middle school, and it got me hooked on the fantasy genre, an interest I have kept for more than a decade, but the Elenium, while quite similar, is in my opinion, a better series. In a lot of ways, you could call it a "gritty reboot" of the Belgariad. There is more violence, and the characters are more unphased towards said violence. The characters also aren't quite is overpowered, although still definitely more powerful than the average person. Plus, the series has interesting political machinations with the church leadership and such.

 

Now that I've typed that out, I have a strong urge to dig out The Diamond Throne tonight.

[Aran]

The age of the protagonists probably contributed to that. The Belgariad has a kid protagonist, while Sparhawk started the series as a grizzled veteran.

 

As far as quality and immersion goes, I also found the Sparhawk series to be more captivating. However, while I think the Malloreon was a huge improvement over the Belgariad, looking back I now like the Elenium a bit more than the Tamuli, which went a bit overboard with literal god-characters and power. They quasi-teleported all over the place (which was kind of funny, mind, because I took it to be a parody of the Traveling at the Speed of Plot trope), and in one chapter I think Aphrael summoned some kind of futuristic ship thing?

 

In order of preference, I think I'd go with Elenium>Tamuli>Malloreon>Belgariad.

[Alorael at Large]

I almost posted the exact same preference. In particular, I'll note that the overall plot of the Tamuli edges a little too close to the Malloreon, complete with competing cosmic powers embodied in stones with proxies on a particular world. The Elenium is on a more human scale, and the humans are good and powerful but have their (few) warts and aren't afraid to show them. Yes, there are gods, but they're a comfortable scale of gods.

 

The Belgariad and the Malloreon have the additional problem that the prophecies running the show dictate too much. Everything up until the end of the last book really has to happen. There's a huge problem of free will. It doesn't spoil things while you're reading it, but it really ruins the story in retrospect.

 

—Alorael, who notes that Eddings even noted the difference in protagonists. Garion is a Percival. There's a long and illustrious tradition of having noobs as protagonists, but it's not always a good choice.

[Actaeon]

The title is wrong.

 

I would not be offended if a kindly mod wanted to retitle the thread "objects of power" or some such, but since the threat has become about MacGuffins regardless of the content of the post...

[SamSniped]

I'm pretty sure that the Geneforge is a MacGuffin to some extent. At least, the TVTropes page for Geneforges lists it as such.

[Goldengirl]

I believe that the Geneforge's status a MacGuffin varies from game-to-game. In the first two games (and I believe the third as well, though I haven't finished G3) the case is a lot stronger. It's theoretically possible to use the Geneforge, but most of the conflict concerning the game isn't about it being used, but rather about its construction and capture.

 

By G4 the Geneforge is less a MacGuffin; it's a boost to stats that's used almost immediately. On the contrary, the Geneforge in Northforge Citadel can more realistically be classified as a MacGuffin. The majority of the game is spent trying to get to the Geneforge without any intention to use it or do anything with it but protect it.

 

By G5 the argument that the Geneforge is a MacGuffin is basically lost. It makes only one appearance, without any real foreshadowing, and then is completely forgotten afterward. Indeed, the existence of that Geneforge is so hidden that only a handful of people know anything about it. If no one knows about it, it can't really be a MacGuffin.

[Balladeer]

The Holy Grail.

 

I shall outlive you all and pry your pretty pretty things from your dead crumbling fingers. Muahahahaha

[Aran]

To go back to Tolkien: One apt example of the original McGuffin are the silmarils. They have no power, abilities, or particular significance other than being unique and looking pretty. The only thing that makes them central to the Quenta Silmarillion is that Morgoth took them and Feänor wanted them back. Neither of them even needed to use them for anything; they were essentially baubles.

[Student of Trinity]

Ha — both the Grail and the Silmarils are great examples.

 

@Jewels: Have you ever read the novels of Charles Williams? I think Eerdmanns reprinted them some years ago. He had a couple of odd McGuffins, including the Grail itself in one book. Unfortunately the only other thing I distinctly remember about that book was that the protagonist was an archdeacon. It's got to be one of the most exciting books about archdeacons ever written. Williams was a buddy of C.S. Lewis, though I think I might agree with Tolkien in thinking Williams was somehow a slightly sinister influence on Lewis. There's something a little creepy in his mysticism. Of his seven novels, probably the best were All Hallows' Eve and Many Dimensions.

[Balladeer]

I don't believe I have. Oddly I realize I was not all that divergent a reader back in the day. Found one author and read all of their books while ignoring the diversity around me. I even bought a ton of Stephen King's books, brand new, but never read them. Too scared to be scared? idk. I ended up selling them, I think. Or giving them away to someone who would read them.

 

The books I read now are usually the same ones my teen girls bring home from their school library or ones my sisters pass on to me so we have something to talk about. But recommendations are good. I'll put them on the list to keep an eye out for.

[Dintiradan]

To go back to Tolkien: One apt example of the original McGuffin are the silmarils. They have no power, abilities, or particular significance other than being unique and looking pretty. The only thing that makes them central to the Quenta Silmarillion is that Morgoth took them and Feänor wanted them back. Neither of them even needed to use them for anything; they were essentially baubles.

My understanding was that the Silmarils were significant because they shone with the light of the Two Trees, and ever since the Trees were destroyed, they were the only source of that light visible on Middle Earth (along with the Phial of Galadriel, once all the Silmarils disappeared). Agreed, no great power or abilities, but immense cultural and "religious" significance.

[Alorael at Large]

Yes, but that has absolutely no relevance to the plot, it's just an excuse for why everyone wants these baubles. You can replace the light of the Trees with "they're like catnip for Elves and Valar" or "they're just really pretty" and nothing at all changes.

 

—Alorael, who now wants to write a story about a MacGuffin that draws in pursuers whose pursuit in turn attracts more attention and pursuit, driving an ever-expanding conflict until the eventual parties who get their hands on the thing not only have no idea what it's for but don't even know who would know or wants it from more than just peer pressure. He'd be surprised if that hadn't been done yet, though.

[Little Fyora]

I shall outlive you all

 

That reminded me of Amrit, the holy nectar which bestows ageless immortality on the drinker.

 

whoops-edit : didn't notice there was a second page