Kyshakk Koan RaustBlackDragon Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Hey, I'm a relatively recent fan of your games, and I just finished a post about how much I'm LOVING Avernum: Escape From The Pit. However, I do have one small issue with the game that I would love to see rectified in your future products: the stat system is a bit too restricting. It's a strange paradox of games that the more control the player has over their characters' stat gains, the less freedom they actually have. When you can assign every point yourself, the stat system has to be done quite carefully to make sure that this doesn't simply give the player 101 different ways to make a horrible character. The strategy guides for your games really illustrate this. Because of how the battle formulas work, having a secondary weapon is pretty much always impractical, as it means you'll have two attacks that do half damage rather than one attack that does full damage. In short, the increased versatility in no way comes close to offsetting the loss of overall damage. One solution to this I can see is to reduce the overall impact that your stat score has on your characteristics, particularly damage output. For example, maybe magic damage could mainly scale with the character's raw level, and somebody with a maxed intelligence stat would do only twice as much damage as somebody with a base intelligence stat using the same spell. Of course, perks, abilities, and access to superior spells would likely set them further apart, but a "red mage" build would have wider versatility, and the reduced impact of stats could make this a reasonable trade-off. I personally think that this change would make your next project a vast improvement over your previous work, and considering how amazing your previous work has been, that would really be something. I suggest this mainly because It makes me sad to see the rigid "don't make these builds or you will lose" sentiment in games with such huge and expansive character build options. Thanks for your time, and best of luck on your next projects, whatever they may be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 This should be in the Avernum forum. EDIT: Thread, Topic, Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan RaustBlackDragon Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Well it was intended as a suggestion for a future project, not necessarily avernum, so I thought it would belong here. Sorry if I was mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast keira Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Um, Jeff and Co. don't read the forums often, especially not General. you may want to email this directly to him at spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Geez, guys, way to welcome a new user. This topic applies just as much to Avadon and Geneforge as it does to Avernum EFTP. It certainly belongs here. It's feedback Jeff has heard before and did not seem very interested in, but it will certainly generate discussion here. RaustBlackDragon: very well put. Welcome to the forums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Jeff made quite a few significant changes to the way stats are allocated in his most recent two titles, so I suspect that he will continue to improve. I agree that character building is probably the worst aspect of his games, though. The important question is whether or not he would attract more customers with something as magnificent as the D&D engines for this sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan RaustBlackDragon Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Thanks for the welcome HoS! I saw the post for your balancing mod, I think I'll give it a shot once I've completed the vanilla game once . I have some history of modding myself, I might just try my hand at it for a spiderweb game someday So Jeff has heard this before and has not expressed interest in it? Did he state his reasons somewhere I can read them? I'm really curious to see what his thoughts on the matter are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Welcome to Spiderweb Software! Please leave your sanity at the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lauren CW Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 6 posts in before the traditional welcome. Slarty even welcomed him WITHOUT it. I don't know if that's a testament to the quality of his post distracting people, or y'all are just slipping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 It's the first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Actaeon Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I blame Randomizer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Not to worry, the proprieties had already been observed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lauren CW Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: Jerakeen Not to worry, the proprieties had already been observed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan RaustBlackDragon Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 Aww shucks guys, thanks for the warm reception So somebody said that Jeff has already expressed awareness of, and disinterest in, this suggestion? I'd love to see anything he's written on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Don't feel special. Everybody gets the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: !Pinkie Pie Don't feel special. Everybody gets the same. That's not very nice. RaustBlackDragon, while it is true that we welcome everyone, your welcome is no less friendly because of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Sorry :| What I mean is that we are ALL special! We do welcome you I'm just saying thats the same hello we give everyone. *sigh* I remember the first time I got it Wait, I never did get it. I guess what I am saying, is that we should come up with more creative ways to welcome xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Jerakeen Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: !Pinkie Pie I guess what I am saying, is that we should come up with more creative ways to welcome xD Feel free. Meanwhile, can anyone answer the poor guy's question? You might find something on Jeff's blog, but they could be referring to some forum posts or even an old interview or something. Anybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: RaustBlackDragon Aww shucks guys, thanks for the warm reception So somebody said that Jeff has already expressed awareness of, and disinterest in, this suggestion? I'd love to see anything he's written on the subject. It's not so much that he's actively uninterested as that he has a lot of design inertia. Some people will complain about any change, so for a change to be worth the headache it causes, he needs a really compelling idea of what to change it to. Also there are a couple of people who completely flip out when you so much as suggest that offering a bunch of unplayably bad options might not be good design, because I guess they want to feel superior to others through their amazing ability to look up optimal builds on the internet before playing. Even the partially-automated stat gains of Avadon and A:EftP prompted a torrent of complaints. So there's that to deal with as well. If you want a general idea of Jeff Vogel's opinions on innovation in his games, View from the Bottom #2 and #3 sum it up pretty well. Of course, he does change his mind about things sometimes: he changed his mind about releasing games for the iPad and that's worked out pretty well for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Lauren CW Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 @Trent, using something else to welcome people would break longstanding tradition. It would be like performing winter wrap-up in Ponyville using magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Trenton. Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Sometimes change is good But eh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Originally Posted By: δ³Σx² Slarty even welcomed him WITHOUT it. I'm not sure I've ever used the traditional greeting, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Well, I have noticed that the last few greetings had some variance among them, some mentioned fluffy turtles, some didn't, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Actaeon Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 We need the ability to personalize. The fluffy turtle thing went out of style for a while, but has been making a comeback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt BMA Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 If it wasn't for the that Randomizer puts in next to the sanity welcome, newcomers may even feel insulted. And fluffy turtles ? They'll think we're a bunch of loons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Actaeon Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 What do turtles have to do with loons? Are we doing a wetland theme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt BMA Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 A google search "loons meaning" also throws a result of silly/crazy person. ( I'd thought that the word was American slang, but its British maybe ? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: BMA I'd thought that the word was American slang, but its British maybe? It is not quite as common in American slang as it is in British, but Actaeon was almost certainly aware of your meaning and making a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Actaeon Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 A poor joke, I'll admit. I lack Harehunter's subtlety and wit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk nikki. Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Actaeon A poor joke, I'll admit. I lack subtlety and wit. wait. everything you posted til now was yield up to that joke i just bonded, yeah? Edit: build up to that joke I just bolded. Damn you, Apple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Understated Ur-Drakon Tyranicus Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Actaeon A poor joke, I'll admit. I lack Harehunter's subtlety and wit. I see what you did there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Kelandon Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Lilith Also there are a couple of people who completely flip out when you so much as suggest that offering a bunch of unplayably bad options might not be good design, because I guess they want to feel superior to others through their amazing ability to look up optimal builds on the internet before playing. Even the partially-automated stat gains of Avadon and A:EftP prompted a torrent of complaints. So there's that to deal with as well. I don't get the attitude that I think you describe accurately here. To avoid spoilers, I tend not to look anything up on the boards before playing the game, and as a result, I've stopped playing Spidweb games on harder levels. The engine just isn't intuitive enough for reasonable guesses to play out well in the long run. The problem that I have is not so much that I make bad decisions; it's just that if you don't make optimal decisions, you're neutered by mid-game. In Avadon, at least you don't go too far wrong and get a retrained, but in some of the GF games, you might as well quit and start over, because you can't proceed. I like the leveling system of A1-2, which basically made you game-breakingly strong by the time you got to the end if you did all the sidequests. In the recent games, it's hard to accomplish anything even if you do all the sidequests; character build counts vastly more than exploration effort, and good character builds require a heck of a lot more knowledge of the game mechanics than I've ever bothered to build up (and sometimes depends on getting one or two specific special weapons). I liked Avernum 1 before I ever joined these forums, and I liked Avadon after having been a member of these forums for a long time, but I'm not sure that I would've liked Avadon had I not been a member of these forums. It just didn't reward the sorts of things that I thought it should. (That is, poking around in every corner of the game, rather than reading up on the right skills to train before starting play.) I'd been trying to figure out what had been driving me crazy about Jeff's more recent games for some time. I'm glad this topic finally got me to realize what it was. (And don't get me wrong: I've liked every Spidweb game I've ever played. I just liked some more than others.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Triumph Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Kelandon, you've just almost convinced me that whatever Jeff's next game is, I should start playing without reading any of Slarty's analyses. I'm curious now to see how it would go (just on normal difficulty) to play without any special insight into the game's mechanics. I think it would be difficult...because I'd have nothing base stat decisions on except the in-game descriptions...which I know can never be trusted if they come from Jeff...hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 I've found during beta testing that you have to analyze the game because Jeff doesn't provide documentation until the end and it's usually wrong advice. I do hate that you have to optimize in order to survive to the end and an early bad decision can make it impossible to reach the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Alorael at Large Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 What Randomizer said. I play on normal (like Jeff all but requires for beta testers, at least initially) and I make solid, conservative builds that I think most normal players would use. They usually have little trouble in the endgame unless that endgame gets noted as hard. They don't steamroll. They rarely resemble what Slarty and company end up recommending. As long as the games make this work out okay, I'm happy. A:EftP could have been a little easier for my tastes, but I'm actually still pretty happy if I'm steamrolling through a game. I cheated my way through many games and I don't feel like I missed out on much in many of them. Jeff's most recent games reward clever playing and builds more, but still not enough that I think it's a huge shame to skip over the gameplay and just get the writing. —Alorael, who will rephrase this way: Jeff is a competent game designer, but if he were making adventure games they'd be true gems. And he could probably get retro-chic graphics to evoke LucasArts nostalgia. Actually, he should really give this a test run sometime, see if he can't make a few quick bucks on a quickly banged-out mini point and click adventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Triumph Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Originally Posted By: Land of One Thousand Punches Jeff is a competent game designer, but if he were making adventure games they'd be true gems. And he could probably get retro-chic graphics to evoke LucasArts nostalgia. Actually, he should really give this a test run sometime, see if he can't make a few quick bucks on a quickly banged-out mini point and click adventure. I WOULD BUY THIS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Kelandon Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: Terror's Martyr's Ghost's Ghost —Alorael, who will rephrase this way: Jeff is a competent game designer, but if he were making adventure games they'd be true gems. And he could probably get retro-chic graphics to evoke LucasArts nostalgia. Actually, he should really give this a test run sometime, see if he can't make a few quick bucks on a quickly banged-out mini point and click adventure. If I'm not mistaken, adventure games depend on puzzles, and Jeff's puzzles have... well, come to think of it, though they've been rare, they've been kind of fun. I can't recall the last one that he did, but I liked the few in Nethergate and that general era that I can remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Jeff has been removing puzzles from his games because new players didn't like them. Exile had lots, but they are simpler in the Avernum remakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast keira Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Spiderweb games were more fun back when they were underground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Triumph Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I definitely miss the puzzles. Another reason why Nethergate is so awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Mea Tulpa Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Exile had lots of puzzles? Other than the Test of Mind in Exile 2, which was explicitly skippable, I can barely think of any. In particular, all the laser beam stuff in Avernum 3 was not in Exile 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Erebus the Black Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Weren't there a dump load of puzzles in the dark waters area (where you had to switch to singleton mode and take on hordes of chits with only one char, or split two members and each open different gates for each other while fighting off shades)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Randomizer Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Erika's Tower always had puzzles to solve on the way to see her in Exile 1 and 2, but Exile 3 only had a room with pillars puzzle. Erika gave a choice between solving a puzzle or fighting a monster. Exile 3 had the two gremlins in the Dryad's Grove southeast of Golddale. Jeff wanted to use his math degree for the numerical sequence one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S Exile had lots of puzzles? Other than the Test of Mind in Exile 2, which was explicitly skippable, I can barely think of any. In particular, all the laser beam stuff in Avernum 3 was not in Exile 3. the conveyor belt version of that dungeon was pretty puzzley too though and then there was the crypt of drath in e1 of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Harehunter Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'm not sure you could really class it as a puzzle per se, but the effect of snuffing out all light sources in the Mertis Spiral, and especially Gremlin's Gold presented it's own set of challenges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyshakk Koan Mod. Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I know its not a puzzle in the traditional sense, but sneaking is one of the more "interesting" puzzle approaches, coming with all the frustration you find in most typical puzzles. I think geneforge would have been fine without sneaking puzzles, but I didn't mind them as they generally weren't to difficult. Anything else puzzle-like in geneforge was pylon mazes, at least as far as I can recall. As for the previous posts on greetings, I don't think I've ever received the traditional greeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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