Suggestion: reduce impact of stats

[RaustBlackDragon]

Hey, I'm a relatively recent fan of your games, and I just finished a post about how much I'm LOVING Avernum: Escape From The Pit. However, I do have one small issue with the game that I would love to see rectified in your future products: the stat system is a bit too restricting.

 

It's a strange paradox of games that the more control the player has over their characters' stat gains, the less freedom they actually have. When you can assign every point yourself, the stat system has to be done quite carefully to make sure that this doesn't simply give the player 101 different ways to make a horrible character.

 

The strategy guides for your games really illustrate this. Because of how the battle formulas work, having a secondary weapon is pretty much always impractical, as it means you'll have two attacks that do half damage rather than one attack that does full damage. In short, the increased versatility in no way comes close to offsetting the loss of overall damage.

 

One solution to this I can see is to reduce the overall impact that your stat score has on your characteristics, particularly damage output.

 

For example, maybe magic damage could mainly scale with the character's raw level, and somebody with a maxed intelligence stat would do only twice as much damage as somebody with a base intelligence stat using the same spell.

 

Of course, perks, abilities, and access to superior spells would likely set them further apart, but a "red mage" build would have wider versatility, and the reduced impact of stats could make this a reasonable trade-off.

 

I personally think that this change would make your next project a vast improvement over your previous work, and considering how amazing your previous work has been, that would really be something.

 

I suggest this mainly because It makes me sad to see the rigid "don't make these builds or you will lose" sentiment in games with such huge and expansive character build options.

 

Thanks for your time, and best of luck on your next projects, whatever they may be!

[Trenton.]

This should be in the Avernum forum.

 

EDIT: Thread, Topic, Whatever.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Well it was intended as a suggestion for a future project, not necessarily avernum, so I thought it would belong here. Sorry if I was mistaken.

[keira]

Um, Jeff and Co. don't read the forums often, especially not General. you may want to email this directly to him at spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com.

[ex post slarto]

Geez, guys, way to welcome a new user.

 

This topic applies just as much to Avadon and Geneforge as it does to Avernum EFTP. It certainly belongs here. It's feedback Jeff has heard before and did not seem very interested in, but it will certainly generate discussion here.

 

RaustBlackDragon: very well put. Welcome to the forums!

[Enraged Slith]

Jeff made quite a few significant changes to the way stats are allocated in his most recent two titles, so I suspect that he will continue to improve. I agree that character building is probably the worst aspect of his games, though. The important question is whether or not he would attract more customers with something as magnificent as the D&D engines for this sort of thing.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Thanks for the welcome HoS! I saw the post for your balancing mod, I think I'll give it a shot once I've completed the vanilla game once . I have some history of modding myself, I might just try my hand at it for a spiderweb game someday

 

So Jeff has heard this before and has not expressed interest in it? Did he state his reasons somewhere I can read them? I'm really curious to see what his thoughts on the matter are.

[Trenton.]

Welcome to Spiderweb Software! Please leave your sanity at the door.

[Lauren CW]

6 posts in before the traditional welcome.

Slarty even welcomed him WITHOUT it.

I don't know if that's a testament to the quality of his post distracting people, or y'all are just slipping...

[Trenton.]

It's the first.

[Actaeon]

I blame Randomizer.

[Jerakeen]

Not to worry, the proprieties had already been observed.

[Lauren CW]

Originally Posted By: Jerakeen

Not to worry, the proprieties had already been observed.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Aww shucks guys, thanks for the warm reception

 

So somebody said that Jeff has already expressed awareness of, and disinterest in, this suggestion? I'd love to see anything he's written on the subject.

[Trenton.]

Don't feel special. Everybody gets the same.

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: !Pinkie Pie

Don't feel special. Everybody gets the same.

That's not very nice.

RaustBlackDragon, while it is true that we welcome everyone, your welcome is no less friendly because of this.

[Trenton.]

Sorry :| What I mean is that we are ALL special! We do welcome you I'm just saying thats the same hello we give everyone.

 

*sigh* I remember the first time I got it

 

Wait, I never did get it.

 

I guess what I am saying, is that we should come up with more creative ways to welcome xD

[Jerakeen]

Originally Posted By: !Pinkie Pie

I guess what I am saying, is that we should come up with more creative ways to welcome xD

Feel free.

Meanwhile, can anyone answer the poor guy's question? You might find something on Jeff's blog, but they could be referring to some forum posts or even an old interview or something. Anybody?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: RaustBlackDragon

Aww shucks guys, thanks for the warm reception

So somebody said that Jeff has already expressed awareness of, and disinterest in, this suggestion? I'd love to see anything he's written on the subject.

It's not so much that he's actively uninterested as that he has a lot of design inertia. Some people will complain about any change, so for a change to be worth the headache it causes, he needs a really compelling idea of what to change it to.

Also there are a couple of people who completely flip out when you so much as suggest that offering a bunch of unplayably bad options might not be good design, because I guess they want to feel superior to others through their amazing ability to look up optimal builds on the internet before playing. Even the partially-automated stat gains of Avadon and A:EftP prompted a torrent of complaints. So there's that to deal with as well.

If you want a general idea of Jeff Vogel's opinions on innovation in his games, View from the Bottom #2 and #3 sum it up pretty well. Of course, he does change his mind about things sometimes: he changed his mind about releasing games for the iPad and that's worked out pretty well for him.

[Lauren CW]

@Trent, using something else to welcome people would break longstanding tradition. It would be like performing winter wrap-up in Ponyville using magic.

[Trenton.]

Sometimes change is good But eh.

[ex post slarto]

Originally Posted By: δ³Σx²

Slarty even welcomed him WITHOUT it.

I'm not sure I've ever used the traditional greeting, actually.

[Erebus the Black]

Well, I have noticed that the last few greetings had some variance among them, some mentioned fluffy turtles, some didn't, etc...

[Actaeon]

We need the ability to personalize. The fluffy turtle thing went out of style for a while, but has been making a comeback.

[BMA]

If it wasn't for the that Randomizer puts in next to the sanity welcome, newcomers may even feel insulted. And fluffy turtles ? They'll think we're a bunch of loons.

[Actaeon]

What do turtles have to do with loons? Are we doing a wetland theme?

[BMA]

A google search "loons meaning" also throws a result of silly/crazy person.

 

( I'd thought that the word was American slang, but its British maybe ? )

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: BMA

I'd thought that the word was American slang, but its British maybe?

It is not quite as common in American slang as it is in British, but Actaeon was almost certainly aware of your meaning and making a joke.

[Actaeon]

A poor joke, I'll admit. I lack Harehunter's subtlety and wit.

[nikki.]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

A poor joke, I'll admit. I lack subtlety and wit.

wait. everything you posted til now was yield up to that joke i just bonded, yeah?

Edit: build up to that joke I just bolded. Damn you, Apple!

[Tyranicus]

Originally Posted By: Actaeon

A poor joke, I'll admit. I lack Harehunter's subtlety and wit.

I see what you did there.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

Also there are a couple of people who completely flip out when you so much as suggest that offering a bunch of unplayably bad options might not be good design, because I guess they want to feel superior to others through their amazing ability to look up optimal builds on the internet before playing. Even the partially-automated stat gains of Avadon and A:EftP prompted a torrent of complaints. So there's that to deal with as well.

I don't get the attitude that I think you describe accurately here. To avoid spoilers, I tend not to look anything up on the boards before playing the game, and as a result, I've stopped playing Spidweb games on harder levels. The engine just isn't intuitive enough for reasonable guesses to play out well in the long run.

The problem that I have is not so much that I make bad decisions; it's just that if you don't make optimal decisions, you're neutered by mid-game. In Avadon, at least you don't go too far wrong and get a retrained, but in some of the GF games, you might as well quit and start over, because you can't proceed.

I like the leveling system of A1-2, which basically made you game-breakingly strong by the time you got to the end if you did all the sidequests. In the recent games, it's hard to accomplish anything even if you do all the sidequests; character build counts vastly more than exploration effort, and good character builds require a heck of a lot more knowledge of the game mechanics than I've ever bothered to build up (and sometimes depends on getting one or two specific special weapons).

I liked Avernum 1 before I ever joined these forums, and I liked Avadon after having been a member of these forums for a long time, but I'm not sure that I would've liked Avadon had I not been a member of these forums. It just didn't reward the sorts of things that I thought it should. (That is, poking around in every corner of the game, rather than reading up on the right skills to train before starting play.)

I'd been trying to figure out what had been driving me crazy about Jeff's more recent games for some time. I'm glad this topic finally got me to realize what it was. (And don't get me wrong: I've liked every Spidweb game I've ever played. I just liked some more than others.)

[Triumph]

Kelandon, you've just almost convinced me that whatever Jeff's next game is, I should start playing without reading any of Slarty's analyses. I'm curious now to see how it would go (just on normal difficulty) to play without any special insight into the game's mechanics. I think it would be difficult...because I'd have nothing base stat decisions on except the in-game descriptions...which I know can never be trusted if they come from Jeff...hmm.

[Randomizer]

I've found during beta testing that you have to analyze the game because Jeff doesn't provide documentation until the end and it's usually wrong advice. I do hate that you have to optimize in order to survive to the end and an early bad decision can make it impossible to reach the end.

[Alorael at Large]

What Randomizer said. I play on normal (like Jeff all but requires for beta testers, at least initially) and I make solid, conservative builds that I think most normal players would use. They usually have little trouble in the endgame unless that endgame gets noted as hard. They don't steamroll. They rarely resemble what Slarty and company end up recommending.

 

As long as the games make this work out okay, I'm happy. A:EftP could have been a little easier for my tastes, but I'm actually still pretty happy if I'm steamrolling through a game. I cheated my way through many games and I don't feel like I missed out on much in many of them. Jeff's most recent games reward clever playing and builds more, but still not enough that I think it's a huge shame to skip over the gameplay and just get the writing.

 

—Alorael, who will rephrase this way: Jeff is a competent game designer, but if he were making adventure games they'd be true gems. And he could probably get retro-chic graphics to evoke LucasArts nostalgia. Actually, he should really give this a test run sometime, see if he can't make a few quick bucks on a quickly banged-out mini point and click adventure.

[Triumph]

Originally Posted By: Land of One Thousand Punches

Jeff is a competent game designer, but if he were making adventure games they'd be true gems. And he could probably get retro-chic graphics to evoke LucasArts nostalgia. Actually, he should really give this a test run sometime, see if he can't make a few quick bucks on a quickly banged-out mini point and click adventure.

I WOULD BUY THIS.

[Kelandon]

Originally Posted By: Terror's Martyr's Ghost's Ghost

—Alorael, who will rephrase this way: Jeff is a competent game designer, but if he were making adventure games they'd be true gems. And he could probably get retro-chic graphics to evoke LucasArts nostalgia. Actually, he should really give this a test run sometime, see if he can't make a few quick bucks on a quickly banged-out mini point and click adventure.

If I'm not mistaken, adventure games depend on puzzles, and Jeff's puzzles have... well, come to think of it, though they've been rare, they've been kind of fun. I can't recall the last one that he did, but I liked the few in Nethergate and that general era that I can remember.

[Randomizer]

Jeff has been removing puzzles from his games because new players didn't like them. Exile had lots, but they are simpler in the Avernum remakes.

[keira]

Spiderweb games were more fun back when they were underground.

[Triumph]

I definitely miss the puzzles. Another reason why Nethergate is so awesome.

[ex post slarto]

Exile had lots of puzzles?

 

Other than the Test of Mind in Exile 2, which was explicitly skippable, I can barely think of any. In particular, all the laser beam stuff in Avernum 3 was not in Exile 3.

[Erebus the Black]

Weren't there a dump load of puzzles in the dark waters area (where you had to switch to singleton mode and take on hordes of chits with only one char, or split two members and each open different gates for each other while fighting off shades)?

[Randomizer]

Erika's Tower always had puzzles to solve on the way to see her in Exile 1 and 2, but Exile 3 only had a room with pillars puzzle. Erika gave a choice between solving a puzzle or fighting a monster.

 

Exile 3 had the two gremlins in the Dryad's Grove southeast of Golddale. Jeff wanted to use his math degree for the numerical sequence one.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: HOUSE of S

Exile had lots of puzzles?

Other than the Test of Mind in Exile 2, which was explicitly skippable, I can barely think of any. In particular, all the laser beam stuff in Avernum 3 was not in Exile 3.

the conveyor belt version of that dungeon was pretty puzzley too though

and then there was the crypt of drath in e1 of course

[Harehunter]

I'm not sure you could really class it as a puzzle per se, but the effect of snuffing out all light sources in the Mertis Spiral, and especially Gremlin's Gold presented it's own set of challenges.

[Mod.]

I know its not a puzzle in the traditional sense, but sneaking is one of the more "interesting" puzzle approaches, coming with all the frustration you find in most typical puzzles. I think geneforge would have been fine without sneaking puzzles, but I didn't mind them as they generally weren't to difficult. Anything else puzzle-like in geneforge was pylon mazes, at least as far as I can recall.

 

As for the previous posts on greetings, I don't think I've ever received the traditional greeting.