Meeting the Past Heroes

[Ociporus]

Maybe what would have been more satisfying is if the heroes that got created from A1-A5 would be mentioned more. That is, the ones WE made that would become part of folklore. Why not MEET some of these old guys, hear a few of their stories, get some tips from them? They have disappeared, even though they presumably retired in Avernum. How could we not meet them? Maybe they would not be named as WE had done (which is another reason that Aldous et al should have been changed each game) but they would be accessible. If Rone and the gang are still around, why not the heroes we made?

 

I think that is an excellent consideration for any future series by Jeff. ADD to your list of heroes / folklore guys through the ones who ACCOMPLISHED the saving of the world each time.

 

I know that some of the games mentioned those dudes who saved the world before, but we need to MEET them. That would be really cool.

 

Maybe they might even have JOINED you at a particular juncture, for a particular reason. Some were saying they wished Rone and the gang had chipped in during the series. It would be WAY neater for the old heroes to shine up their armor and go for a whack.

 

I originally posted this into another thread, but then realized that it might be a neat new thread. My apologies for anyone who had to read it twice, but...at least I added a couple other ideas to this version.

[Clocknova]

They certainly could be named the same as we named them if there was an option to import a saved file from a previous installment. If not, they would be named differently, of course.

[Lightning Spammer]

This might work okay if the plot is relatively linear and closed-ended, but I imagine it would be hard to implement if his future games had wildly different endings depending on player choices. But maybe it would be easier than I think? Gosh knows I'm no programmer.

[monolith94]

The avernum 3 game heroes retired to the surface, didn't they?

[*i]

The problem, unlike games like Final Fantasy, is you define your characters completely. They really don't have personalities per se other than how you envision them. So you're going to inherently meet someone who is not *your* heroes, but a version of them Jeff concocted. Inevitably, some people are going to be disappointed.

 

That said, having them referenced vaguely in history by other characters or memorials is nice. It adds to the atmosphere, gives the player a feeling of accomplishment, and does not really anger anyone.

[Ociporus]

There is a measure of method that could 'personalize' the heroes.

First, one's saved games could contain information about them, including their names, attributes, etc. Notes could be kept about what they accomplished. It would take some work, but saving such information would make it entirely possible to personalize the "heroes" aspect.

[waterplant]

Sorry to break this to everyone but adventurers, as a rule, are not so long lived.

[Quiconque]

The games' PCs are exceptions to all the rules about adventurers, though. It is very clear from all the suspicion and derision directed at adventurers in X1 and X2 that before those two bands, adventurers never accomplished much of anything in Avernum, despite being disproportionately represented there.

[Vicheron]

If you want to play a game series where your characters from one game carried over to the next, you could play Mass Effect. There's also Might and Magic 1 & 2 and Might and Magic 4 and 5.

[Alorael at Large]

Or Baldur's Gate. Or Quest for Glory.

 

—Alorael, who thinks KotOR may be unique in not letting you carry forward a character but still altering the game slightly based on what your previous character was like.

[Lilith]

or bard's tale

 

or the later games in the wizardry series

 

or pretty much all of the gold box games

 

or or or the point is this used to be a pretty common thing

[jlsgaladriel]

Hmmm, I've played lots of games -- like HOMM V and Neverwinter Nights -- in which the player characters carried over from one episode to the next.

 

But that's not really what we're talking about here -- it's not about importing a character we've leveled previously and leveling that same character further. "Meeting your characters" would be a totally different thing -- it would involve importing old character save files and somehow presenting them as NPCs.

 

I can't think of an rpg that does that. Vague references to former heroes are one thing, but importing old characters just to add flavour to the NPCs of the world seems like a fair amount of work for not very much payback.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel

I can't think of an rpg that does that. Vague references to former heroes are one thing, but importing old characters just to add flavour to the NPCs of the world seems like a fair amount of work for not very much payback.

i can think of a couple but they're pretty much all japanese-style rpgs with predefined characters

[Alorael at Large]

Western games do it too, but differently. If your party has one character you create yourself and several that join you (all things Bioware, for example), those accompanying party members can reappear without any problems. It's still not the same, though, and it doesn't help with having Avernum characters reappear.

 

—Alorael, who can only imagine how the conversations would work. The player inputs both side of the conversation? Someone would end up with all of someone else's equipment. Oh, and there would probably be some deaths, too.

[waterplant]

The former heroes would presumably also have their old kit from the previous game making them a one-stop for the coolest items (inc demonslayer). If you were able to get it from them somehow...

[jlsgaladriel]

Quote:

If your party has one character you create yourself and several that join you (all things Bioware, for example), those accompanying party members can reappear without any problems.

Deekin!

Quote:

The former heroes would presumably also have their old kit from the previous game

Yeah, there are games that deal with importing pcs by having them immediately be robbed, and not allowing recovery of their stolen goods until most of the old stuff has already been replaced with better gear.

Although importing old pc savefiles for appearance as npcs might allow for interesting things: the goods are all available in the old adventurers' new shop, at "utterly ridiculous" prices...

[Quiconque]

Secret of the Silver Blades eh?

[Spidweb]

"The problem, unlike games like Final Fantasy, is you define your characters completely. They really don't have personalities per se other than how you envision them. So you're going to inherently meet someone who is not *your* heroes, but a version of them Jeff concocted. Inevitably, some people are going to be disappointed."

 

This.

 

Heck, I can't even place a proper (if vague) memorial since it's unclear whether you won the previous games with a one or four player party.

 

Avernum 5 and 6 have multiple references to past problems being solved by enterprising adventurers, though.

 

- Jeff Vogel

[Sss-Chah]

you can always fight your past characters' ghosts/animated statues in nethack...

[Student of Trinity]

What would be cool would be to find a bunch of heroes who had done some great deeds that were NOT the ones you did in previous games. You know, the Three Heroes who saved Avernum from the horrible invasion of the Fire Shrooms ten years ago, destroyed the pustulent nephar lich archduchess who was controlling them, and discovered the natural portal (now tragically buried under two miles of lava) to a network of caves deep within the moon. And of course from Moonvernum they retrieved the awesome greatpants known as Shroomslayer. How sad that in their final battle Shroomslayer suffered that embarrassing rip, and now their first character has to stand still in front of his chair when guests are present.

 

I bet you could undertake their quest to Patch Shroomslayer, but it would be strictly optional. Really optional.

 

It'd be great to meet those guys.

[madrigan]

"greatpants" FTW!

[Quiconque]

Actually, that sounds a lot like Alwan's life story.

[waterplant]

I once owned a pair of Greatpants known as 'Shroommaker!'....They were truly greatpants.

[Ociporus]

Originally Posted By: jlsgaladriel

But that's not really what we're talking about here -- it's not about importing a character we've leveled previously and leveling that same character further. "Meeting your characters" would be a totally different thing -- it would involve importing old character save files and somehow presenting them as NPCs.

I can't think of an rpg that does that. Vague references to former heroes are one thing, but importing old characters just to add flavour to the NPCs of the world seems like a fair amount of work for not very much payback.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. But there have been some interesting additional ideas presented in this thread. I don't expect that the 'past heroes' would be required to fight. But it seems weird to have them totally ignored, especially when us gamers put so much work into getting them to survive.

[Ociporus]

What if the 'past heroes' offered some training? Wouldn't it be neat to 'learn' from them? Surely they'd want to pass on some of their skills / memoirs / items to promising young adventurers!

[Student of Trinity]

Well, but a lot of their expertise would be out of date. There's been so much technological progress since their time. Now we have weightless backpacks, dual wielding, Cloak of Blades. They'll just want to ramble on about how important it is to hoard magic arrows or unlock Magery, or something.

[Alorael at Large]

Back in there day getting the third spell level was a huge deal. Now it's insignificant. There's been spell inflation!

 

—Alorael, who is also reminded that back in the early days of Avernum adventurers were ignorant. They didn't know what bonuses their equipment gave, really. They just wore it and hoped for the best.

[Micawber]

Yeah, about the only useful info they could give would likely be maps of all the dungeons (with all the secret passages marked out). But of course they'd think all the towns were farther apart than they actually are.

[Jerakeen]

Their maps would be seriously out of date anyway, what with cavequakes and all.

[Sss-Chah]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

What would be cool would be to find a bunch of heroes who had done some great deeds that were NOT the ones you did in previous games.

to be fair, pea eye's one of those. he didn't discover any mushroom pants or a magic bowl of chicken soup or anything like that, though.

Originally Posted By: Micawber

towns were farther apart than they actually are.

i actually came up with a theory for this, other than just 'cause.
after the war with the empire, avernum was probably able to rebuild itself quickly because it didn't have to worry about full scale wars up until the second slith war. after the reconciliation, it got tons of new wealth. there's a whole 3 decades in between avernum 2 and 4. with all of the increase in production from the two huge wars plus the vastly increased trade and wealth from peace with the empire, it actually makes sense for the towns and cities to get that much bigger.

[Demseinwetter]

Isn't Fort Emerald where all the past heroes go in Avernum VI along with the past hero memorial and where they tell all the stories and songs about the deeds, long since past.

 

Behold, for we have heard a story,

And a story of greatness it is,

He was one man or two,

quite possibly four,

Some say Human, some Nephil,

Some Slith.

 

It does make sense, because they won't let you in, no matter what you do, so those inside must be pretty important.

On the other hand, if you had your orders in your Shroomslayer greatpants... who knows.

[Ephesos]

With the issue of size, a simple "Back in my day, we had to walk for days to get from Fort Remote to Formello..." would suffice. Also, "Back in my day, we had to build an entire fort just to deal with one bunch of nephilim!" Also, "Back in my day, Harston actually existed!"

 

And about the idea of getting items from past parties... you just want a full set of Demonslayers, don't you?

 

Originally Posted By: Demseinwetter

Isn't Fort Emerald where all the past heroes go in Avernum VI along with the past hero memorial and where they tell all the stories and songs about the deeds, long since past.

 

No, they're actually the garrison. In disguise.

[Ociporus]

Lot of funny jokes, guys. You sure have an active sense of humor!

Back to the initial point: How many "Aldous" guys would really become heroes? Maybe the 'team' is reincarnated all the time???

 

It would create a continuum and a bit of a 'reward' for having played all the games.

 

Maybe you wouldn't be interested in having interaction with past heroes, but to me it is a natural draw for budding 'stars' to relish the time spent with those who went before them. Even if it is just that they are trainers or a little bit of story-tellers.

[Alorael at Large]

Back in my day, we had Cotra Classic!

 

—Alorael, who does agree that more old and retired adventurers would be good. They just probably wouldn't also be Aldous. Although actually, having Levitt drop hints about other important tasks carried out by another four-man band would go a long way. Who says you're saving Avernum all by your lonesome?

[Ephesos]

Originally Posted By: To each of us his own Thermopylae

Although actually, having Levitt drop hints about other important tasks carried out by another four-man band would go a long way. Who says you're saving Avernum all by your lonesome?

Like that one time in A3, when a group of adventurers went up to the surface before you, and oh right wait that didn't go well at all.

Though truth be told, they did kind of deserve it. Never split the party. Now that I think about it, couldn't they have just run around with the Xian Coins until they were rich enough to pay off the plagues?

[VCH]

It would have been cool if Jeff had placed a difficult monster dungeon somewhere towards the endgame, with the backstory that this dungeon and its master have lured and killed all past heroes of Avernum to their death. Hints could have been be dropped throughout the game about so and so Mr/Mrs hero disappearing up North or wherever.

[Sss-Chah]

even someone who's descended from one of the heroes would be fine. "yeah, my great grandparents killed emperor hawthorne."

[Jerakeen]

Could be awkward if they were different species.

[Triumph]

Not for the heroes who killed Emperor Hawthorne -- A1 had only human as the only playable race! :-)

[Ociporus]

Originally Posted By: The Turtle Moves

Could be awkward if they were different species.

Considering that this feature is based on the saved game files from before, the program would know everything about the former heroes, including their species.

I like the idea of at least meeting descendants of the heroes. Or at least people reminiscing about them.

[Øther]

And if the player hadn't played the previous games?

[Alorael at Large]

Or if the feature isn't based on a saved game, as much of the discussion assumes? Adoption is the easy answer.

 

—Alorael, who actually sees a young vahnatai as a descendent of the great adventurers as a great opportunity for an ellipsis followed by an exclamation and a question or two.

[Ociporus]

Originally Posted By: Other

And if the player hadn't played the previous games?

Then you get generic dudes. Lots of us have played all the games...
And the saga continues...

[Sss-Chah]

Originally Posted By: Ociporus

Or at least people reminiscing about them.

there are a lot of people who say, "i met the heroes who did this"