A4 - I like it, but...

[Mr. Slithzerikai]

Why is it so much like Geneforge now??

I liked the far off view from the other 4 more...but don get me wrong, I still love all the games

[Lilith]

It's not that much like Geneforge. The graphics have been updated, of course, but, well, they really needed to be, and Geneforge graphics were used because they were already available. The use of the mouse for party movement... ehhh.

[Alorael at Large]

It's apparently Geneforge's engine adapted to be Avernum-like, not vice versa, for what it's worth. That said, it doesn't strike me as especially Geneforge-esque in anything but graphics, and I like the new graphics more. The only other real changes are changes from Avernum but not particularly towards Geneforge.

 

—Alorael, who supposes the stats are more like Geneforge than Avernum now. That part didn't bother him at all. Lack of height (from the graphics and engine) was a much bigger problem.

[Randomizer]

A lot was grabbed from Geneforge to save time. Some of the features were okay, but Avernum and Exile games are great for using keyboard commands. At least Jeff said that more keyboard commands will return.

 

I really miss elevations. It made Avernum different.

[Kelandon]

Jeff has also said that elevations will return.

 

NineInch, it would probably be better if you posted fewer new topics. Participate in the discussions already taking place rather than starting a million new ones.

[Mr. Slithzerikai]

Sorry Kelandon, juse wanna get into some new conversations is all...

[Enalya]

Theres only a couple of things that miff me about A4...the main one being not able to move across an entire screen with one click. Its always too far...beh.

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

I never really liked either Isometric styles. Exile is beter because you get 6 party members, The skill points required for skills stay the same, and its dificult getting used to the essence of retarded compass points in avernum.

For something like nethergate, it's fine. Also, you get to define what your health and spell points are. And you cant headbang! WHY DO YOU STINKING CLOUD (curse) ME?!?!

 

And theres no editor in Avernum 4.

 

EDIT: hold on. that didn't realy have any thing to do with the isometricness. Anyways, FLATLANDS TO DA CORE! and there's less spells. INCLUDING DEATH ARROWS AND QUICKFIRE!

[GivingPerformer]

I thought the plot was WAY too similar to Avernum 3... I could have told you before I started the game that Rentar-Ihrno was trying to get revenge.

 

I'm glad she's dead.

[Micawber]

You killed her? How barbaric.

[Sudanna]

After all the games she's been in? She deserves to die. Several times.

[Alorael at Large]

Hey, she was fine in A2. A3 was a little questionable, though. And I'll grant that she deserved to die after A4. Still, I hope the plot of A5 at least leaves her fate ambiguous. After all, who would know what happened besides 1-4 tight-lipped adventurers and possibly the vahnatai?

 

—Alorael, who ignores the fact that Starrus apparently has magical spies that can tell him anything and everything instantly. It's good to be the king.

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

She's a complete moron, she killed Erika

[Micawber]

That's a bit of a non sequitur; Erika wasn't exactly the easiest person to destroy. Erika wasn't the most popular person in-game, either (she did cause the war which takes place in A2).

[GivingPerformer]

I actually haven't gotten to the end yet, but I think I'm definitely going to kill her! We'll see what happens when she makes her excuses; maybe her pathos will arouse my sense of pity (NOT).

[Xaiya]

If Erika didn't cause the war, the Avernites wouldn't be able to return to the surface.

[Ephesos]

Quote:

Originally written by Infernal Flamming Muffin:
If Erika didn't cause the war, the Avernites wouldn't be able to return to the surface.

I'm not so sure about that. It wouldn't have happened as quickly or as violently, but the Avernites would've found a way back.

[Alorael at Large]

Letting Rentar live requires some choices much earlier in the game that you can easily miss if you choose a belligerent tone with her.

 

I don't follow the link between the Empire War and the return to the surface. Reconciliation between the Empire and Avernum followed diplomacy and spying launched from Fort Emergence. That was largely unrelated to the Empire's actions and mostly based on the fact that Avernites wanted out of the caves.

 

Yes, stopping the plagues gave Avernum a diplomatic edge and the plagues were caused by vahnatai, who were in turn motivated by the Empire's kidnappings, which wouldn't have happened if Erika hadn't sparked the war. On the other hand, Prazac was a notably receptive Empress. Without Erika Hawthorne or Garzahd might still hold all the power, and they weren't the negotiating sort.

 

—Alorael, who still thinks Erika wasn't exactly a popular person. Maybe assassinating Hawthorne was a good idea, but Erika did that and everything else alone. She was too much of a reclusive loose cannon for anyone powerful in Avernum or on the surface to be comfortable with her.

[Nioca]

I showed some sympathy to Rentar, but in the end, she forced me to kill her. I was hoping for a peaceful resolution, but...

[Randomizer]

I liked Erika. It's hard to be a genius surrounded by morons. A least in her opinion there was nobody there as an equal.

 

Besides getting to see her was always a fun challenge in the first two games. The third one was just surviving her hobbies.

[Dark Mage]

I liked Erika...I hope that she magically resurrects for A5...that things may happen...

 

And I didn't ended A4 so tell me, what happened with Rentar?

 

I didn't liked A4 too much, it was just OK but no more for me...maybe because the ending was so ovbious...something like:

 

Avernum

CHAPTER FOUR: THE VAHNATAI DID IT!!

 

Edit: [NineInch]...Nails???

Trent Reznor anyone?

[Sparhawk]

Hehehe thats true about the end chapter. In the first, second and third it is all wow these are strange CRYSTALS i wonder what they mean. Any idiot that lived in Avernum or empire would be able to tell straight away.

 

I liked the Exile series beter because of 6 party members hundred or so spells, the skill points required for skills stay the same, and there were more skills to chose from, you get to add to health and spell points.

 

What is with the bows i know there was probably some reason behind it but never ending arrows is ridiculous.

[Alorael at Large]

[spoilers], obviously

 

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At the end of A4 you can choose from three options after you defeat Rentar-Ihrno. You can kill her, send her back to the non-rogue vahnatai so they can apply their own sense of justice, or let her flee with a promise to inflict pain and suffering on the Empire instead of Avernum.

 

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[/spoilers]

 

[Edit: Tagged out[/t]]

 

—Alorale, who wishes the UBB had a decent spoilers tag. He also could live with everyone expecting to see spoilers in every thread, since that's more or less how Spiderweb operates.

[Emperor Tullegolar]

Quote:

Originally written by GivingPerformer:
We'll see what happens when she makes her excuses; maybe her pathos will arouse my sense of pity (NOT).

One great thing about Rentar is that she makes no excuses. She doesn't have to, she is doing what she believes is right. It is up to the player to understand this and forgive her for it. When they do, Rentar honorably accepts the defeat, and is willing to surrender unconditionally. She loves her people so much, she is willing to swallow her pride for them. Why most people interpret this as 'mindless hate villain' I'll never understand.

[Kelandon]

Because "what she believes is right" is so obviously not right that the train of thought usually stops right there. She's stupidly clinging to something that's clearly evil. That's a generic evil villain.

 

Rentar is dead. Dead dead dead. In A5, people will talk about how dead she is. So says Jeff.

[Sticky]

She could be a shade. Or a martyr for some cult. In fact, I would find it rather odd if her influence had faded entirely by A5. Just so long as she isn't still the prime motivator, she (or her memory) could have some place in the game without me finding it bad.

[Alorael at Large]

I'd be disappointed if the vahnatai didn't talk about her, but it should be abundantly clear to them that she was insane, proceeded insanely, and caused nothing but harm to humans and vahnatai.

 

—Alorael, who can follow Rentar's reasoning up to the point where the Empire committed heinous crimes and had to pay. Trying to destroy the Empire entirely would be crazy. Targeting insignificant Valorim is even crazier. Then ignoring the Empire to get revenge on Avernum for getting in the way? The only thing that makes it even slightly reasonable is the way the vahnatai sectioned up Avernum with barriers in A2. Maybe they just don't know how to extract vengeance very well.

[Dark Mage]

Quote:

Originally written by Being of Alo:
[spoilers], obviously

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At the end of A4 you can choose from three options after you defeat Rentar-Ihrno. You can kill her, send her back to the non-rogue vahnatai so they can apply their own sense of justice, or let her flee with a promise to inflict pain and suffering on the Empire instead of Avernum.

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[/spoilers]

[Edit: Tagged out[/t]]

—Alorale, who wishes the UBB had a decent spoilers tag. He also could live with everyone expecting to see spoilers in every thread, since that's more or less how Spiderweb operates.

So A4 have different endings then?? That's not very avernum-like! It sounds more like geneforge!!Oh my god Geneforge is everywhere!!!

[Alorael at Large]

It has one ending with a few minor variations in the text depending on what you've done with Rentar-Ihrno, the Darkside Loyalists, the Shades, and maybe a few other problems. It's not very Geneforge-esque

 

—Alorael, who also thinks that getting different endings depending on choices made literally in the last five minutes of the game hardly makes them distinct endings. Reload and see what else you could have done.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by Being of Alo:
It has one ending with a few minor variations in the text depending on what you've done with Rentar-Ihrno, the Darkside Loyalists, the Shades, and maybe a few other problems.

Don't you have to kill the shades at the end anyway if you didn't kill them during the game?

[Alorael at Large]

Do you? What for? I've never not killed them, but I think I remember someone saying it changed the ending and it makes sense to me.

 

—Alorael, who doesn't even remember getting any especially useful reward for killing the Shades, which was only fair since they weren't terribly difficult by that point in the game.

[Lilith]

Quote:

Originally written by This poster is not Thuryl.:
Do you? What for?

I'm pretty sure they show up in the final dungeon and attack you if you haven't killed them yet. At least, I seem to recall seeing text about a shade attacking in the script of some zones near the end of A4.

[Randomizer]

If you haven't killed the 3 shades then the final fight with R-I becomes harder. Or if you fail to take the correct dialog option than it can be harder. I don't think it affects the final end.

 

R-I was kind of the loose cannon of the Vahnatai. She pretty much would decide on an action, do it, and then wait for Council approval.

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

Quote:

Originally written by chicho1102:
I liked Erika...I hope that she magically resurrects for A5...that things may happen...

I've had one Idea, where you go back in time and stop Erika from getting the curse, so she is able to kill Rentar-Ihrno without dying herself. Then she has to go on like she has the curse, you go through the whole thing again (your actual selves are not there) and coming to the fight, Renter blasts the whole, but it does nothing. Rentar gets death arrowed.

Speaking of that, why can't a PC be a Vahnatai?

[Dikiyoba]

Originally by Quickfire:

 

Quote:

Speaking of that, why can't a PC be a Vahnatai?

Jeff thinks having a vahnatai PC would make their race be significantly less cool and mysterious. Besides, vahnatai would probably either be unbalancing or severely weakened to be a PC character.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Alorael at Large]

If Erika were not cursed, she wouldn't be in Avernum very long. She is not the sort who would patiently stay in self-imposed exile to preserve the timeline. She'd be going at Garzahd and Hawthorne with everything she had, and she'd have a fair chance at winning.

 

—Alorael, who thinks a time-traveling Avernite could more reasonably convince Erika not to battle with Rentar-Ihrno. Events in A4 would proceed differently, but they wouldn't be unrecognizable.

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

like i said, she says she has the curse, and it goes the same way. It's imaginary.

 

As a vahnatai, you would be like,

 

Strength:1

Dexterity:2

Intelligence:3

Experience penalty: 20%

 

Around the same as Sliths.

[Alorael at Large]

Jeff has made races and traits give bonuses to a few skills that get progressively larger as you gain levels. A few points in the main stats wouldn't be worth a penalty, and increasing bonuses would require too much penalty.

 

—Alorael, who finds your hypothetical too unlikely. It would require Erika to have a different personality, which is within the bounds of speculation but not within the bounds of time travel. Or simple time travel, anyway. You could always go back to her childhood and give her a different life. (See BoE: Chains)

[Dark Mage]

I thought that once Jeff said that there will NEVER be a vahnatai PC, am I right?

[Nioca]

Yes. But the again, he also said there wouldn't be a Avernum 4.

[ex post slarto]

No, he never said that, Nioca. This is a ridiculously propagated myth. He said there wouldn't be an Exile 4, and he said that back in 1997, I think, years before Avernum was even conceived of.

[Lilith]

In fact, Jeff actually made the entire Avernum series just so he could exploit that loophole to make Avernum 4 instead of Exile 4, and thus continue the Exile plotline.

 

[Alorael at Large]

If Jeff thought he could make more money from putting vahnatai PCs in his games, he'd do it.

 

—Alorael, who leaves convincing Jeff as an exercise for the reader. You have, oh, ten years to do it. Good luck!

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

Fine. maybe you could say vahnatai are better at magic or somethin'.

 

And who the hell is Alorael?

[Kelandon]

Alorael is the person who keeps signing his posts with the name "Alorael."

 

That is, he is member 335, who changes his displayed name regularly.

[Dark Mage]

Yes tomorrow he will have a different name, but he always says that he's alorael so you won't ever be confused.

 

And the more ovbious pc trait for vahnatai is making them good at magic, but that would be an unbalance because magic is a very big skill, slith only had attack bonus with spears, but they had more endurance and resistance too, I think that vahnatai should be good at magis spells, not priest. But ther eis some really though vahnatai warrior...so what are they good at?

[Alorael at Large]

The vahnatai are good at everything, which is why they wouldn't make very good characters.

 

—Alorael, who at least thinks it makes sense in a system in which humans are the worst race and all other races just add bonuses with no penalty but experience. There's no reasonable way to penalize vahnatai down to human equivalence.

[Fungus Shamegne 26]

Yes there is. They are more vunerable to disease and poison. They use blades more don't they? And razor disks. Hold on, that's more of the human ninja no?

[GivingPerformer]

Oh, I got to the end of the game. And yeah, I killed her. I had enough of her insane ideas about vengeance... sort of reminded me of Goodman Thorious and family.

 

And this way, I hope Avernum 5 won't have such a predictable plot, with mysterious crystals and monsters and whatnot.