How Canisters Work

[Sleeping Dragon]

Forgive me if this question is a bit technical, I feel a bit like a nerd asking about it but I figure this would be the place to do so.

 

You have the opportunity to speak with a genuine canister maker in the latest Geneforge game and he explains a bit about how canisters are made. He says he actually uses his own genetic makeup as a sample for each canister. That makes perfect sense for canisters that would increase strength and dexterity and such, as those traits are largely genetic (though they would require canisters makers in excellent physical condition), but how does this process work for skills such as spells and shaping abilities? This would seem to imply that spells become a part of your DNA once you've learned them, otherwise how would you ever be able to convert a learned ability into a gene altering canister?

 

I'm sorry if I am over-thinking this, but I was curious if anyone else here ever thinks about these things.

[Aoslare]

Geneforge 1 has much more vivid descriptions of what exactly the canisters do to you. As I recall, it sounds very much like what you suggest.

 

It does say very clearly that although the effect may be similar to learning a spell by studying it (or a skill by practicing it) that the mechanism by which it happens is different.

[Sleeping Dragon]

But when you learn something from a book, it doesn't effect your DNA (at least I don't think). Geneforge 1 implies that canisters do write such skills into your DNA. My question was more regarding how they are made. If, as the maker suggests, they are created from existing DNA, then how did, for example, the first ever bolt of fire canister get created if there was no one around with bolt of fire in their DNA to make the canister?

[Randomizer]

Geneforge implies that skills and spells can be imprinted into you by altering your DNA. Much like some animals are born already knowing how to do things straight from birth without having to be taught by parents or others.

 

 

[Student of Trinity]

Which actually raises some very interesting ideas about the nature of knowledge. Are there for instance any Mechanics canisters? Or Leadership?

 

Of course, abilities that have effects in the game are not necessarily purely knowledge skills. In real life I'm a much better leader on caffeine than without it, so some sort of genetic mood alteration could well boost leadership without actually giving you any new psychological skills or understanding.

 

But it's sort of interesting to speculate about the limits of canisters. Are there abilities they cannot confer even in principle?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Student of Trinity

Which actually raises some very interesting ideas about the nature of knowledge. Are there for instance any Mechanics canisters? Or Leadership?

There are at least a few scattered throughout the games. They're not very common, though.

Quote:

Of course, abilities that have effects in the game are not necessarily purely knowledge skills. In real life I'm a much better leader on caffeine than without it, so some sort of genetic mood alteration could well boost leadership without actually giving you any new psychological skills or understanding.

Or, hey, maybe you just grow a gland that secretes pheromones into the air.

Quote:

But it's sort of interesting to speculate about the limits of canisters. Are there abilities they cannot confer even in principle?

Well, apparently they can't make you less crazy, and some of the more severely canister-affected characters throughout the games also have problems with their physical health. I suspect that canisters are really quite a blunt instrument; you can confer a specific ability if you can make a gene for it, but there's no telling what you'll break in the process of forcing the new DNA in there. (This is pretty much how gene therapy works in real life right now, and it's one of the reasons why there have been so few human trials of it, and none of them very successful.)

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Sleeping Dragon

If, as the maker suggests, they are created from existing DNA, then how did, for example, the first ever bolt of fire canister get created if there was no one around with bolt of fire in their DNA to make the canister?

There are quite a few creations with innate fire-making capabilities, so they might be able to pull certain sets of genes from creations. Or maybe some people had genes that predisposed them to being good at casting spells, and they just found one of those people.

Dikiyoba.

[Evnissyen]

Sleeping:

In short: Canisters rewrite your DNA. Education doesn't. Since the canister-maker loves canisters, his DNA's gone through plenty of rewriting.

 

But it's an interesting question: If this is how canisters are made, then how was the first canister made? I'd say: 1. A drayk made it (their magic is physiological, not memorized), or 2. Like Thuryl suggests: Somebody used drayk DNA, or 3. This is not the only way one can make canisters; perhaps this particular canister-maker simply feels it helps to do things this way. Different people tend to have different methods?

 

[Sudanna]

Nalyd finds it more likely that new genetic information is tailor-made for the first canisters, and once someone has used those canisters, they can make more of the same type.

 

This raises another question: Can canister-learned abilities be passed on hereditarily?

[Ale193]

Perhaps the powers would be hereditary but the insanity would not, or would you just get exponentially more canister mad from generation to generation. Actually I think canister abilities wouldn't become hereditary unless they directly affected the reproductive organs. If we could figure out how canister work their might be a way to hypothetically figure out a way to make canister without the mental side effects. In G2 there were a few people in rising who seemed resistant to canister madness and retained politeness and compassion whereas others quickly became deranged. possibly the genes from the canister madness resistant people could be used to make canister that cured canister madness or make Anti- canisters that undid the effect of the canisters as a whole. if this were made possible the good guys like the awakened and moderate shapers could gain enough power to overcome the radicals without loosing their more benevolent ideals. then only the ones who were just innately greedy and power-mad people would go loopy.

[Xaiya]

Well, apparently the whole changing of the DNA over and over again plus the idea some people have where they think the canisters make them super powerful has an effect on their mind.

 

Maybe they could just go to a psychiatrist (that is, if the psychiatrist doesn't turn into some scattered ash).

[Sleeping Dragon]

Thank you for answering my original question. But, if what Dikiyoba says is true, some canisters would actually give you creation DNA? There have got to be some canister users out there who would not be happy to hear that. Perhaps Shaper Grimm was correct after all, canisters do make you a creation.

 

I believe that if canisters effect your DNA, it is granted that these traits will be passed on. Hmm, does that mean infants would be running around able to cast aura of flames at will? I suppose they would have to level up first to get enough mana for that to be possible...

[Sudanna]

Power should be earned, not found or given.

 

If the DNA is, indeed made from scratch for the original canisters, then you won't be getting DNA belonging to anything. There's a difference between a Friebolt and a Fyora's breath. The Firebolt is conjured from nothingness, presumably in the area of your hand. The Fyora has saliva that combusts on contact with air, as Nalyd remembers.

[Masked Man of Inscrutability]

Originally Posted By: Zindahjira

The Fyora has saliva that combusts on contact with air, as Nalyd remembers.

Wouldn't that make it exceedingly difficult for a Fyora to eat its lunch without its head exploding, let alone breath?

[Dikiyoba]

Dikiyoba assumes that canisters/Geneforges affect the entire body and not just certain parts of it (just because it is the easiest to imagine, really), so it would be hereditary. And there are a few comments about newer generations of drakons being more powerful (and arrogant) than the older ones, but maybe it's solely due to them getting better at reshaping themselves.

[Aoslare]

I have to imagine that if canister traits were passed on to children, we'd have heard about it at least once by now. Certainly in Drypeak Valley there were canister users who had plenty of time to have kids. The drayk and drakon "reshaping" is always discussed quite distinctly from canister use, so I don't think they can be lumped together. (Particularly since the factions that first had drayks reshaping themselves did not have the technology to create canisters.)

[Evnissyen]

Canisters rewrite your DNA and therefore the changes would be passed on to the next generation. The insanity and addiction seems to be a psychological side effect and therefore is not passed on. But it seems that the canisters tend to have a desructive effect on the body, when over-used, therefore if the user is not made impotent then the offspring would, I'm guessing, likely be born with negative and sometimes even life-threatening physical mutations and deficiencies . . . whether or not the positive changes the canisters give the user would be passed on in whole, I couldn't say.

 

Aside from the madness, there also seems to be a rewriting of the parts of your genes that effect the brain: they gradually stifle the emotional center of the human mind, and this effect would be passed down through the generations . . . assuming, again, that the user is not rendered sterile.

 

Also, as far as some people being more resistant to the side effects... well, you see this with certain drugs, too... . Some people are able to take huge doses of LSD over time and still maintain their sanity, while others' sanity dissolves much more quickly. Some people are more prone to addiction than others are.

 

(EDITED to add: I'm intrigued by Iffy's reference to psychiatrists, and I wonder what the Geneforge world would be like were there psychiatrists.)

 

(Also... I'm wondering why we never see children of shapers, or shapers with children? Are they celibate, or something?)

 

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba

Dikiyoba assumes that canisters/Geneforges affect the entire body and not just certain parts of it (just because it is the easiest to imagine, really)

I'm pretty sure that every cell in your body has in it the DNA with the instructions for your entire body, so you would be correct in assuming this.

Slarty, sadly, there were no human survivors from Drypeak Valley (that we know of). So no, I don't think there has been time for anyone who has used canisters to have kids. Except for drakons maybe, but they are all so heavily altered, there would be no real control group for their children.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Slartucker

I have to imagine that if canister traits were passed on to children, we'd have heard about it at least once by now. Certainly in Drypeak Valley there were canister users who had plenty of time to have kids.

Well, but you can use a few canisters without any obvious effect, so a kid with parents that just used two or three canisters wouldn't stand out. And given that even ordinary Shapers can be totally driven by work, I don't think having kids is a priority for canister addicts like finding another canister and creating bigger monsters are.

Dikiyoba.

[Gandalf the Purple]

Like Dikiyoba said, I doubt having children is particularly high on canister users priority list. It's kind of a moot point anyway as there's the side affect that makes them insane. If somebody tried to be nice or get close to a canister user, they'd likely be hit by several firebolts, followed by a couple essence lances for good measure.

[Sudanna]

Yes, the children would stand out at all, except for their ability to shoot balls of acid from their hands at will.

 

Actually, Nalyd thinks that Fyora's store their flammable liquid and spit it out like some snakes spit venom.

 

Geneforge 5 needs a hermit Shaper that has created an abomination: A human child, Shaped from scratch.

[Aoslare]

It has already been suggested (by Clois in G1, among others) that serviles are just shaped humans. Since creations apparently come about by modifying the tiny scrolls of already existing creatures, this seems pretty reasonable.

[Dikiyoba]

Dikiyoba remembers Clois. Dikiyoba doesn't remember anyone else suggesting that. Who were they?

[Evnissyen]

Sleeping has a point: There is evidence, with Ghaldring (sp?) and so forth, that the alterations made by the Drakons upon themselves have been passed down through generations, except... and somebody else will have to enlighten me on this because so far I'm adequately familiar with the Geneforge history only from G3 onward... that the Drakons only managed to develop their own version of the Geneforge in G3. So... in what way were the super-powerful Drakons altered? Or were they simply genetic accidents?

 

Gandalf: That aspect has occurred to me, that cannisters will take the romantic charm out of just about anybody... but surely you've heard of marriages-of-convenience? And also, I don't doubt it should be common that two heavy cannister users... necessarily male and female... who feel at least an intellectual connection to one another should end up having children. ...Unless the canisters, like some drugs, suppress the sex drive.

 

(EDIT to add: In fact, it seems to me there aren't any children at all in the Geneforge series or Avernum 4 & 5. (I haven't played A1-A3; I do remember children, however, from Nethergate.)

 

Also: Zindahjira:

The problem I saw with Clois' remark was that that in G4 we see very clearly that the Servile's face is quite different from that of a human. The nose, at any rate. But he does seem essentially right in that Serviles do seem to be humans shaped to be stunted, strong, and less intelligent. Not to mention the different facial features.

 

I also would like, in G5, for the Serviles to finally pull back their hoods. Why the modesty?

 

(end of EDIT.)

 

[Sudanna]

When Nalyd suggested that, he had envisioned a nice little sub-story. Classic obsessed scientist/creation gone wrong schtick.

 

Serviles are obviously not innately dumber than humans, and we see from G1 that they are different physically.

[Randomizer]

Children seem to have been dropped for the most part to avoid complaints about children being killed by blood thirsty adventurers.

 

More likely is Jeff didn't want to spend time making up the extra graphics.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Evnissyen

the Drakons only managed to develop their own version of the Geneforge in G3.

They made their first geneforge in Geneforge 2. Ghaldring seems, however, to be the only Taker survivor from those games and what, if any, connection he had with their geneforge is unknown. It may have never been completed (you complete it yourself if you are a Taker) or he may have been to young to use it (he is described as 'growing' in the end of Geneforge 2). Technically, a geneforge is just a formula for a stronger being that rewrites its user to be that being. Ghaldring may have been the same formula they would have used for a geneforge, just created directly... if any of that makes sense to you guys. I love thinking about the science behind these games.

[Ale193]

If the resistance to the mental effects of canisters is a genetic trait then hypothetically their would be canisters that counteract canister madness, thus allowing the good shapers and good rebels to gain the power necessary to overthrow the radicals without going insane. People who are just naturally power mad would still become addicted but it would be possible to avoid the physical deadening of the emotional centers of the brain. perhaps such a formula could also be used to cure people already canister mad. I find it odd that there are no children in geneforge or that there are so few couples . if canister abilities were heredity and the dehumanizing effect was not that could mean that within a few generations everyone would go back to normal even if the glow-in-the-dark freaks win.

[Archmagus Micael]

Well considering that in Geneforge 4 you play a character (in my case the rebel version of an agent) who has been through the Geneforge, you can say that you have survived "modification" pretty well, and kept a pretty good hold on sanity (at least if you take the shaper path, dunno about the rebel path).

 

On a whole children have been left out of the recent spiderweb games, though both the Exile and Avernum Trilogy, as well as both Blades games (and I'd guess the original Nethergate too) have had children in them, but Randomizer probably has it right with Jeff not wanting/ not feeling it's worth the resources to have children in the game.

 

Resistance to mental abilities is probably also due to personality traits as well as any hereditary ones, certain personality types may be more susceptible to going over the edge and powerhungry, while others may have a strong will and a strong set of morals (hence they stay somewhat sane).

 

And back to the notion of kids, whether their sex drive was inhibited or not, or if mutually-beneficial marriages occurred, I doubt they would be able to have children. Whatever changes have been made to their DNA I would guess to be somewhat significant (suddenly having it within your DNA to shape a creation involves you having their DNA stored somewhere within yours in one form or another), and we all know that if the DNA is radically different (as in the differences between different species) then reproduction does not occur. Therefore I'm guessing that two canister-users would have significantly incompatible DNA, therefore by this logic not so much rendered sterile, but that there would be no other individual within their 'species' for them to successfully reproduce with.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

- Archmagus Micael

[Sudanna]

If they both took identical canisters, then?

[Evnissyen]

If they took identical canisters then that would be incest, right?

 

Micael:

Even though the canisters change you, they still leave you generally human. Also: one species can have children even with another species if both species happen to share enough of their DNA specifications. You can mate horses with donkeys to produce mules (although the product is sterile)... there's speculation that there could've been interbreeding between the Cro-Magnon and the Neanderthals, but that the offspring was sterile. So... yes and no: A male & female with dramatically rewritten DNA might still be compatible but their offspring would be sterile.

 

Then again, maybe not. This might be something that genetic scientists will be thinking a lot about once they begin having real success in identifying and changing certain human attributes, to build our immunities and improve our talents... but the changes are likely to be so small as to not cause any trouble with our children... our children will bear our altered genes and still be able to reproduce and continue to pass on those genes.

 

[Ale193]

Canisters don't seem to radically effect the majority of the human body until a significant amount of canisters have been used. at first the canister genes don't seem to replace major genetic structures people and would still have relatively compatible DNA, as more and more are used the canisters probably would render people unable to reproduce. I am assuming that the genes in the canisters would have to be suited to the rest of the human genome or they'd just give you cancer. so in the beginning at least, reproduction would be possible.

 

Another thing to consider is whether canisters add genes to your genome or replace existing ones. if they simply added genes there might not have been the mental and eventual physical decay as seen in the games. This leads me to believe that the canisters work by replacing existing DNA, starting with relatively non essential DNA, and making use of the largely unused parts of the brain. as more canisters are used the core parts of the human genome are replaced, eventually erasing your humanity (GF2 brazite ending). if this is the case then the canister madness would be hereditary as well as the abilities.

 

This thread is really getting quite interesting, I haven't had such a good theoretical scientific discussion in a long time.

[Gandalf the Purple]

Correct if I'm wrong, but if they just added genes, wouldn't they eventually have such unstable DNA that it would kill them? Before long they would have too many genes.

[Lord Safey]

Originally Posted By: Gandalf the Purple

Correct if I'm wrong, but if they just added genes, wouldn't they eventually have such unstable DNA that it would kill them? Before long they would have too many genes.

from what the games shows canisters aren't very stable so I say it adds.

[Sleeping Dragon]

That is indeed the case for many people. Master Hodge actually began to fall apart due to canister use. There was also that poor girl that used the geneforge before you in Geneforge 4 that went insane right away. There are certainly hazards to using gene-altering devices. Though it is interesting to note that no one has ever died from it, aside from trying to use a geneforge twice.

[Dikiyoba]

Dikiyoba is tempted to say canisters can add and replace, whichever is easier for a given skill. But it's hard to say exactly how genes work in Geneforge. It's difficult enough to determine exactly how genes work in this world, and this world doesn't have magic.

[Synergy]

Aww, sure it does.

 

-S-

[Janitorial Closet]

Magic? MAGIC?! He's a witch! Burn her- I mean, him!

 

 

EDIT: Man, I just realized how off topic that is.

[Evnissyen]

When magic becomes reality it becomes science. When gene alteration gives us the power to evoke fireballs and searing orbs from cold air: there'll be a very good scientific explanation for all of it.

 

[Sudanna]

Originally Posted By: Gandalf the Purple

Correct if I'm wrong, but if they just added genes, wouldn't they eventually have such unstable DNA that it would kill them? Before long they would have too many genes.

That's the line between excessive and relatively harmless canister usage. Of course, if they were very careful with their DNA construction, they could add as much as they wanted.

From the canister effects described in game, it doesn't seem that there is anything in canisters that would impact reproduction that dramatically. Whether or not canister-learned skills are passed on depends on whether the canisters replace or add DNA. If they replace, maybe you'll shoot fireballs, maybe you won't. If they add, you will shoot fireballs.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I'm pretty sure canisters add DNA, not replace it. I believe every single gene we have now is essential for us staying alive, so you can't just have some of them start to go away, otherwise people would die from canisters, a lot. And I'm pretty sure there's no problem with adding genes, since there are probably animals out there with more chromosomes than we have (I know some have less). The problem would lie in canister construction. If someone makes a bad canister, or the genes that it adds don't line up properly with the genes a specific person has, damage could occur. Also, since there are many canisters made by many different people, it could be that they don't work so well with one another. After all, working with something as important as genes would require immaculate precision, and they seem to let just anybody make canisters these days.

[Dikiyoba]

But in a world where magic is fairly common, genes that control how effectively a person can learn and use magic will already exist. So everyone would already have a gene that controls, say, how much essence a person can store in their body. But some versions of the gene would lead to the ability to store more essence than other versions. So using the right canister would just remove the less effective allele and replace it with a better one.

 

Dikiyoba.

[Goldengirl]

This is idiotic. You cannot apply RL science to Geneforge. There are completely different laws. Even if they both look similar.

 

After all, just because a toy truck and a real truck look similar, doesn't mean they operate under the same rules.

[Sudanna]

But then how does your character gain more essence storage capacity without the use of canisters? Nalyd thinks that Shaping is a learned skill, disregarding canisters. Some are better at it than others because of certain brain or body traits that indirectly affect the ability to Shape. Same with magic. Presumably, magic requires somatic elements. Therefore, someone just generally more able to execute the complex somatic elements required in magic would be better at magic. Nalyd doubts that there would be a gene that directly effects the ability to Shape or perform magic.

[Dikiyoba]

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

But then how does your character gain more essence storage capacity without the use of canisters?

They learn how to store more essence or use what they have stored more effectively. Genes are just the starting point.

Quote:

Some are better at it than others because of certain brain or body traits that indirectly affect the ability to Shape. Same with magic. [...] Nalyd doubts that there would be a gene that directly effects the ability to Shape or perform magic.

Right. Using a canister that gives you +1 to minor heal is probably just a game mechanic to keep things simple. But since all those traits that influence the ability to shape and use magic are influenced by genes, changing those genes (and magically implementing all the resultant physical changes, which canisters apparently do some of) also changes a person's ability to shape and use magic.

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd should have been clearer, he meant a naturally occurring gene. The canisters could add a gene that did just that. When you use a canister in one of the games(G2?) it says that the knowledge isn't in your mind, where it should be. Instead, it's in your body, an innate part of you.

[Ale193]

Perhaps depending on the trait added or the construction of the canister it would act by adding or replacing or even a combination of both (both adding and replacing genes can cause damage to the body). I believe magic is just science that hasn't been figured out yet so the canisters are perfectly capable of operating on scientific principles. Canisters that give you skills may do so by "Genetic Memory" or by creating actual new organs that perform the desired function. This discussion is dabbling in science we don't understand in the real world so its hard to figure out how stuff like this works. Unless someone here has a doctorate in Genetics I think we're all really just guessing based fragments of knowledge we aren't quite sure how to put together. (though I think I'm doing quite well for someone who's only a freshman in high school)

[Sudanna]

Quote:

Unless someone here has a doctorate in Genetics

Eventually.

Keep in mind, the Rebels and Shapers barely know what they're doing either.

[Sudanna]

Oops.

[Gandalf the Purple]

As I'm not even in high school, I think I'm doing fairly well in a discussion that is suppose to be over my head. But, honestly, Genetics could very well be my major. It is pretty interesting.