Ale193

Both alwan and greta are sane so if they survive they theres hope for both factions.

Just for clarification, Canisters affect the mind in 2 ways; 1. the fact that power in general goes to peoples heads and 2. the actual physical effect they have on the brain.

I believe that if the canisters had no side affects, they should be allowed, but used sparingly. they should only be given to people who deserved such power and would be able to handle the human urge to blow stuff up when given the chance. lesser canisters would be used more frequently, to speed train people in emergencies, overall the powerfull canisters should only be given to people who wouldn't abuse their powers if they got them the normal way.

If only we got to make our own factions.

WWII is not a accurate metaphor for Geneforge, mainly because everybody involved was human and there were extremely clear-cut good and evil sides. you can't compare the two situations, the shapers aren't evil Nazis and the rebels certainly aren't the good allied powers. the French and russian rebellions are the closest to this situation but even they aren't really accurate metaphors. (though the Stalin/Robespierre-Drakon comparison is a good one) I read through my whole 8th and 9th grade history books and couldn't find a single comparable situation in human history, though certain ones had vague resemblances to parts of the geneforge story. Personally I think this game has gotten so Philosophically muddled that we have to put it down to statistics. if the Drakons win everyone dies, if the Shapers win, less people will die. therefore, the shapers while not necessarily good, are the ones who should win.

IF you had sided with the awakened they would have one, whichever faction you choose in GF2 all the others are eradicated, usually due to you killing them all. the awakened lose because there's no shapers that are both sane and powerful to help them.

The Drakons are trying to kill millions of innocent people, that seems evil to me. Drayks were created by shapers with a degree of restraint, Drakons were created by deranged takers. Gazers and Eyebeasts don't get much face time, but those that I talk to, especially in G3&4 (aside from the ones in G2, who were actually rather polite) the were pretty Hostile and in my opinion anything that is sentient and still randomly kills people needs to be killed off.

Drakons and gazers aren't necessarily bad, its just that the originals were shaped for the sole purpose of destroying stuff, and are unable to truly grasp the principles of peace, freedom and justice, only their own power. However the same could be said of humanity, but most of us have more or less overcome the darker aspects of human nature. to just wipe out an entire race or species just cuz most of them are evil doesn't mean they all are or that we have the right to destroy them all. (that doesn't mean most of the Drakons and pretty much all of the gazers should be allowed to live; I think the all the ones we actually meet in the game need to die, and the only good drakons we meet are the barrier of the wind.) The Drayks are mostly sane and I liked most of the ones I met in G4.

The awakened's drakons would probably share the awakened's philosophy and would have no more objection to fighting than the normal soldiers. Besides, The Takers drakons seemed to positively love destroying stuff, why wouldn't the ones the awakened made?

The Drakons in the barrier of the wind unlike the ones the takers made, were not shaped to be intelligent, the were essentially uber powerful fyoras with wings. Added to that, the begin philosophy of the awakened means that the drakons would have been well taken care of and treated humanely. Demons b their very nature are evil, so there's nothing wrong with enslaving them. Tuldaric was going a little loopy, but the rest of the faction could have reigned him in.

Its a pity that the debate just sort of died like that; I had just come up with some really good metaphors to prove my point , only to find there wasn't even an argument going on anymore. Everyone just agreed that they wanted the awakened back and the Rebels would just end up destroying the world.

The trakovites have a good point, while shaping can bee used for good, when was the last time it was used for anything other than destruction? however I still believe they are wrong to seek to erase knowledge, shaping could do a lot of good for the world if everyone stopped using it to create stuff like the unbound. I think the drakons and the barzites are the scum of the earth for forsaking morality for power for its own sake. The awakened or a similar sect must come back! I agree with goldenking in that we need both Controls on shaping AND Creation rights, at the same time. Make all the serviles you want, just don't beat them cuz they love to work anyway. treat non-sentient creations like favored pets, and treat greater creations as equals. but don't let just anyone learn shaping. the canisters and geneforges need to disposed of untill they can make ones that dont drive you insane. THis would likely be achieved by a fusion of the moderates from both sides.

My game must be messed up then, because I just purged the fens of all hostile lifeforms and have 4 points in create artila and still no upgrade. (not that it would be any use at this point, but it still bugs me.)

A trilogy is a good way to end one story, but I'd like to see another series set in the same world, preferably soon after the first series ended. Sorta like starwars or lord of the rings, both of which consist of one or more trilogies and assorted other books/movies, each of which completes its individual story but is part of a rich and larger universe. I think that series has the potential for that sort of thing.

The charged creations sucked. I don't want to waste my essence on something thats going to die without needing enemies to kill it. I miss terror vlish. (I'm just glad they kept the cryoa) and why is there no upgraded version of the artilla, I have 4 points in that ability and no searing artilla (weren't all that special anyway, but I liked the color).

There were a few similarities, but not many significant ones. Excellent book series though, pity there won't be anymore.

Shapers are essentially normal humans who have learned how to shape, not a different species. Servile probably were originally shaped from or based on humans, possibly thads as well (though they may have been based on apes) just like roamers are based on dogs and the fyoras and drayks were based off lizards.

I thought that this discussion was not about gay bashing, but rather straight people not wanting to seem like they're gay.

I almost always play as a guardian, shapers just seem to die too quickly on me. I like beating stuff with a sword more than magic anyway (and swords don;t need amo ore energy) and have one ore two good creations back me up. I never liked agents because they can't shape well. I've never actually had enough essence to make even UR-Drakon, but even normal drakons are powerful, I just like Gazers better for some reason.

Out of the creations on the ballot I'd pick the gazer/eyebeasts as they're my favorite in game. I haven't talked to enough gazers to physcoanalyze them but the fact they aren't trying to take over the world is a plus. but if I got to choose from any it'd be the ornks, Ornks rule!!! they should have their own faction. Imagine Ur-Ornks! in the first area of GF1 they can kill you

I'm not much for man jewelry either but in fantasy settings it's cool not gay.

Perhaps depending on the trait added or the construction of the canister it would act by adding or replacing or even a combination of both (both adding and replacing genes can cause damage to the body). I believe magic is just science that hasn't been figured out yet so the canisters are perfectly capable of operating on scientific principles. Canisters that give you skills may do so by "Genetic Memory" or by creating actual new organs that perform the desired function. This discussion is dabbling in science we don't understand in the real world so its hard to figure out how stuff like this works. Unless someone here has a doctorate in Genetics I think we're all really just guessing based fragments of knowledge we aren't quite sure how to put together. (though I think I'm doing quite well for someone who's only a freshman in high school)

I had a guardian in G3 and was able to invest 7 points in both, in general fire creations have better melees than the magic creations and are a little more durable. I use a cryoa for the first half of the game and then switched to a artilla & vlish combo, and then ditched them for a single gazer with all my essence poured into it. I used my self as a melee tank with my Oozing blade, and my gazer mowed down the acid resistant rotgroths. (why do the all the cool creations have such hard to spell names??) Dont bother with battle shaping at all, only rotgroths are worth making.

Or you could simply jam the skull in through its ear.

Canisters don't seem to radically effect the majority of the human body until a significant amount of canisters have been used. at first the canister genes don't seem to replace major genetic structures people and would still have relatively compatible DNA, as more and more are used the canisters probably would render people unable to reproduce. I am assuming that the genes in the canisters would have to be suited to the rest of the human genome or they'd just give you cancer. so in the beginning at least, reproduction would be possible. Another thing to consider is whether canisters add genes to your genome or replace existing ones. if they simply added genes there might not have been the mental and eventual physical decay as seen in the games. This leads me to believe that the canisters work by replacing existing DNA, starting with relatively non essential DNA, and making use of the largely unused parts of the brain. as more canisters are used the core parts of the human genome are replaced, eventually erasing your humanity (GF2 brazite ending). if this is the case then the canister madness would be hereditary as well as the abilities. This thread is really getting quite interesting, I haven't had such a good theoretical scientific discussion in a long time.