How Canisters Work

[Sudanna]

Originally Posted By: Gandalf the Purple

As I'm not even in high school, I think I'm doing fairly well in a discussion that is suppose to be over my head. But, honestly, Genetics could very well be my major. It is pretty interesting.

Seconded.

[Goldengirl]

Nalyd, your new signature uses "Devourer of..." twice. You might want to fix that.

 

"Devourer of Hope" is good. I suggest, instead of "Devourer of Kings", that you use "Assassin of Kings" or something similar.

 

But, all in all, it's a very nice sig. Except for the picture, but meh, I just don't like pictures in sigs. Although it would help if you center aligned the picture.

 

Seeing as I'm off-topic, I'l say this in closing: As I said before, magic is science with different rules. Geneforge has magic, Terra does not. And thus, trying to compare the sciences and rules of the two universes fails.

[Gandalf the Purple]

I agree with Goldeking about center-aligning the picture Nalyd, but personally I particularly liked the old signature. Was it something you made up, or a quote from something?

[Sudanna]

Nalyd does not know how to center-align the picture. Yes, Nalyd made up the last signature, and most of the titles in this one.

[Nioca]

Code:

[align:center]This text will be centered in the post.[/align]

This text will be centered in the post.

Code:

[align:left]This text will be left-aligned in the post.[/align]

This text will be left-aligned in the post.

Code:

[align:right]This text will be right-aligned in the post.[/align]

This text will be right-aligned in the post.

[Sudanna]

Oh well. Nalyd got rid of the image in favor of more titles. Damn character limit for signatures.

 

And he petitions for raising the avatar size limit by five pixels.

[Synergy]

"Who do you want to be today?"

 

-Oingo Boingo, 1984

 

-S-

[Evnissyen]

Gandalf:

Yes, definitely go into genetics. From the extension of life to embedding immunities to improving our physiological and psychological makeup, to organ duplication, all the way to growing meat in the lab so no animals need to get hurt, a new horizon, a wondrous age, lived not in peace but dynamically . . . genetic engineering is our bright, happy future.

 

It's also great if you want to be a mad scientist. And there really aren't enough mad scientists in the world.

 

As for Nalyd's signature, I failed to perceive said pic... am I missing something?

 

[Dikiyoba]

Quote:

Nalyd should have been clearer, he meant a naturally occurring gene. The canisters could add a gene that did just that. When you use a canister in one of the games(G2?) it says that the knowledge isn't in your mind, where it should be. Instead, it's in your body, an innate part of you.

Hmm. Well, I think they'd still start with a naturally occuring gene. Shaping seems to be based more on warping existing things than inventing them entirely (the wingbolt is an artila and bat mix and roamers were once dogs according to G4). So if you take some genes from someone who was always really good at creating magic creations and mess with them enough, eventually you might come up with something that would allow you to create an artila without much training.

Originally Posted By: Gandalf the Purple

But, honestly, Genetics could very well be my major. It is pretty interesting.

Originally Posted By: Nalyd

Seconded.

Fifty Punnett squares. Now.

Dikiyoba.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd removed the picture, it used up valuable characters.

 

And the images to Punnett squares refuse to work.

[Janitorial Closet]

You know you can TinyUrl the link to the image, and cut down on the characters used.

[Hydromedia]

Has anyone addressed the fact that the game is called GENEforge? Gene is in the name of the game, along with forge. That probably means that the canisters, and the geneforge, (since they're alike) do something like, oh i don't know, forge your genes. This implies that they must be using base materials that are already there, like iron for a sword. IN this case it might be something like shaping genes already existed or something of that nature. The game isn't called GeneCreate.

[Sudanna]

When forging, you usually bring materials and shape them into something new. But the name probably didn't have anything to do with the mechanics of Shaping, it merely sounded nice. It's not called GeneAlter, either.

[Janitorial Closet]

Wouldn't it be awesome if GeneForge was called GeneExplosion? Doesn't make much sense, but its nice to dream.

[Sudanna]

Awesome? Sad, maybe. . .

[Gandalf the Purple]

Yeah, GeneExplosion doesn't work for me either. But I'm a creature (or should I say say creation?) of habit, so I probably wouldn't like anything besides plain 'ole geneforge.

 

P.S.- Punnett Squares! . Now what?

[Sleeping Dragon]

Just look at forges as they are used in the game, Hydromedia. You quite often us a completed object (such as a sword) and add something new to it (such as a golden crystal). The new part gives the weapon new abilities. I imagine it's more like that.

[Aoslare]

Genes are mentioned by name in Geneforge 1. So the series name cannot be written off as circumstantial evidence. Dannette and company called the things they learned to modify genes.

 

Given that Geneforge calls what we think of as swords, swords; and what we think of as islands, islands; and what we think of as magic, magic; I am inclined to believe that what the Shapers called genes, are what we call genes.

[Sleeping Dragon]

I don't think anyone was denying that, Slarty. We were simply discussing whether canisters add new genes or modify existing ones. I was comparing regular forges (enchanted anvils) with Geneforges. Sorry for the confusion.

[Sudanna]

Nalyd was saying that geneforging neither implies or discourages adding new genes vs. modifying existing genes.

[Hydromedia]

I think there was a research facility in G2 in the awakened magic facilities that used micro scopes to look at what they called and i quote as best i can "scrolls that contain life" or something of that nature. They definitely knew what genes were, and the makers of the geneforge had to know this, as by my thinking they were changing those genes with magic, rather like splicing human insulin in bacteria to day. Of course humans aren't bacteria and shaping isn't insulin, but the idea remains similar. What I'm trying to say is that whomever it was that made the geneforge / invented the canisters had knowledge of genes, and how they worked. The only reason i think that they were altering them is the FORGE thing, and that when one uses canisters for the first time the text that appears is something along "I'm being altered!" The game might as well be called Genealter in my opinion, but that name, well, sucks.

[Evnissyen]

GeneBASH!

 

...available at GameTap...

 

GeneArrange? GeneLegislate? GeneUrge? GeneSuggest? GeneAskNicely.

 

[Student of Trinity]

"Genetweak" is just not going to catch on.

[Gandalf the Purple]

Plus, there is a geneforge in every game, hence the series title Geneforge.

[Hydromedia]

I have a catchy one. How bout Geneforge? Oh no wait... How about... Geneshmorge? I say we leave it.

[Sleeping Dragon]

Originally Posted By: Gandalf the Purple

Plus, there is a geneforge in every game, hence the series title Geneforge.

Yes, though sometimes I wish the geneforge itself would take center stage again like it did in the first game.

[Gandalf the Purple]

As do I, but I thought I was the only one who wished that.

[Sudanna]

Not at all.

[Hydromedia]

I wonder if in G5 it will take on a more central role... you know. Finish out the Geneforge series with the geneforge.

[Sleeping Dragon]

A human geneforge, of course, not another drakon one. Their geneforge seems a bit less effective than the original one anyway. Maybe a servile geneforge...

[Gandalf the Purple]

Ah, a servile geneforge would be interesting... but I believe I would appreciate a human geneforge more, much like the original, which made you hell on wheels.

[Sudanna]

It would be interesting if it was only a human Geneforge, and you played as a Servile. Everyone gets their wish. . . Sort of.

[Gandalf the Purple]

That would NOT be cool. That would also be my luck.

[Garoth]

I'm not an expert on genetics, but what understanding I have allows me to draw the following conclusions about Geneforge.

 

Excepting a few fantastic assumptions at the micro level, Geneforge is actually very scientifically accurate. In G1, G2, and (I seem to recall) G3, you find "peering machines" that allow you to observe flesh sitting on a platform. You observe the double-helix of DNA and eventually magnify the sample such that you can see each of the bases within the gene. These are recorded by the observer in a 4-character language, and changes are made to them to observe what effect that specific change has on the organism. In order of largest to smallest, the components of a genetics are:

 

1. Genome

2. Chromosome

3. Gene

4. DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid)

5. Nucleotides (base pairs)

6. Bases

 

Bases are the four different "characters" that the Geneforge saga observers see and record. This is accurate, as there are only four bases in the DNA sequence.

 

Each side of the double helix DNA carries a series of bases. These bases are paired up with another base from the other side of the double helix. This happens in very specific ways: only certain pairs of bases can exist. These base pairs collectively form the DNA.

 

The gene is comprised of a series of DNA. Genes are compacted into a unit of storage known as the chromosome. Every chromosome in an organism collectively forms its genome.

 

The base pairs are themselves not significant. However, the sequence of them is. When base pairs are "read" by an organism to create proteins, a different protein will be created for different genes (a series of base pairs). An estimated 25,000 genes exist within the human genome, each responsible for a different protein or proteins that are produced. These proteins in turn account for each and every cellular function.

 

Different organisms have different numbers of base pairs per gene.

 

Because of this, it is theoretically possible to modify the cellular functions of an organism both by changing and by adding additional base pairs to the gene. However, to add additional base pairs requires the removal and then replacement of caps that are placed on DNA to code that it has ended. This makes it far more complex than simply changing base pairs. Both because it is more complex and because the early Geneforge games specifically refer to "changing" genes, I think it is far more likely that canisters and the Geneforge alter, rather than add, base pairs to the DNA.

 

In regards to fertility and heredity, gene-altered people are still biologically human. The ability to reproduce depends on compatible chromosomes, not the similarity of the genes contained therein. However, the interactions of altered and regular genes in reproduction are subject to the same uncertainties as any reproduction: what traits are inherited and which are not is a matter of recessive vs. dominant and pure chance. While, theoretically, the "canister madness" could then be bred out, it would require incredibly close monitoring and the removal of "canister mad" people from the gene pool.

 

Geneforge assumes that certain proteins can be produced that allow for superhuman cellular functions, and that every magically talented person possesses these genes. While it may be difficult to properly execute a complicated spell, it would be to these people much as trying to juggle a soccer ball is to us: challenging, but completely natural. Genetic modification, then, would in some way supplement these magical abilities by improving one's ability to execute whatever mechanic allows for spellcasting. It would be as modifying a real person's DNA to allow their quadriceps to contract more quickly, thus improving their ability to juggle a soccer ball. This does not, however, impact their cognitive ability to focus on keeping the ball in the air, or their subconscious understanding of the implications of their actions. This fits very well with the Barzite notion of providing training simultaneously to providing canisters, thus allowing control and increasing sanity.

[Gandalf the Purple]

That was very well reasoned. It contained most all that I knew about genetics but was to lazy to post. Thanks.

[Garoth]

I'd also like to note that the above does not allow us to conclude whether "canister madness" is a genetic or psychological effect of canister use. However, personality dysfunctions tend to be a result of brain damage, which genetic modification would not change after the brain is fully developed. Thus, "canister madness" is likely either a result of brain damage that the canisters or a psychological inability to cope with the new genetic capabilities. It is possible that both are caused by canister use.

 

Litalia in G4 talks about how she had to "relearn" her "humanity:" that the canisters had "erased" her emotions. This does not in itself indicate one issue or the other, since both causes of "canister madness" could create this phenomena and be treated in the same way. Brain damage would create an issue of training different, undamaged sections of the brain to handle the same types of situations that the damaged portions used to. A psychological illness could be treated therapeutically in the same way. Thus, I think that the exact cause of "canister madness" will never be understood unless Jeff includes something about it in G5.

 

It's a shame, too, because it raises interesting questions of morality and would impact the sides I took in-game.

[Sudanna]

Changing the genetic make-up of cells would impact a fully-formed brain. The introduction and production of new chemicals could easily upset many brain functions, or cause brain damage. Nalyd doubts that being innately able to Shape or cast spells would seriously impact the psyche if it weren't for the biological impact of canisters.

[Garoth]

Point ceded. Dang, I knew I hate hormones for a reason. xD

[Grimm]

Originally Posted By: ~Nalyd~

Changing the genetic make-up of cells would impact a fully-formed brain. The introduction and production of new chemicals could easily upset many brain functions, or cause brain damage. Nalyd doubts that being innately able to Shape or cast spells would seriously impact the psyche if it weren't for the biological impact of canisters.

Aren't shaping and magic skills based on the ability to understand what your doing though? So to make shaping and magic innate, the skills would have to be woven directly into your brain. And if so the new chemicals shouldn't hurt the brain, since the brain is producing them itself. Even skills like melee weapons or quick action would be treated like this. Even though these skills are considered physical abilities, they are based on how well the brain understands what is happening, and what to do about it. That being said, these new chemicals could cause arrogance and anger problems.

NOTE: This theory doesn't apply to Strength, Endurance or Dexterity.

Feels kinda weird using the word "theory" in context of video games. Feels like I now have no life.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Grimm

Aren't shaping and magic skills based on the ability to understand what your doing though? So to make shaping and magic innate, the skills would have to be woven directly into your brain. And if so the new chemicals shouldn't hurt the brain, since the brain is producing them itself.

The brain produces lots of things that can hurt it if their production isn't kept tightly regulated. There's a whole family of genetic diseases called lysosomal storage disorders that result from defects in the enzymes that break down various cellular components. The undigested material gradually builds up to toxic levels inside cells and the brain is one of the first organs to be adversely affected, usually causing brain damage and death in early childhood.

[Grimm]

Originally Posted By: Thuryl

Originally Posted By: Grimm

Aren't shaping and magic skills based on the ability to understand what your doing though? So to make shaping and magic innate, the skills would have to be woven directly into your brain. And if so the new chemicals shouldn't hurt the brain, since the brain is producing them itself.

The brain produces lots of things that can hurt it if their production isn't kept tightly regulated. There's a whole family of genetic diseases called lysosomal storage disorders that result from defects in the enzymes that break down various cellular components. The undigested material gradually builds up to toxic levels inside cells and the brain is one of the first organs to be adversely affected, usually causing brain damage and death in early childhood.

Good point. Not completely what I meant though. I also meant that if the brain is in some way damaged, it would affect more than just emotions. Like in many depression cases, which is often caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, the victim would experience physical exhaustion along with it. So if the brain is damaged, the skills learned would be in some way affected as well, beyond the usual "you looked at me funny, now BURN FOR IT" Shoulda probably explained this in the first place, but I have exams to study for.

Again, I feel like I'm becoming more and more socialy unacceptable. Oh well, the games are worth it.

[Sudanna]

One of the games (Nalyd believes G2) states something to the effect of "The spell isn't in your mind, where it should be. Instead, it is woven into your body, an innate part of you."

[Garoth]

Originally Posted By: ~Nalyd~

One of the games (Nalyd believes G2) states something to the effect of "The spell isn't in your mind, where it should be. Instead, it is woven into your body, an innate part of you."

There are also references (such as Burkes in G4) to how what is gained from the canisters cannot be taught, because it is not understood. The canisters, I think, improve your ability to perform a certain action by improving whatever biological mechanism causes that action to occur. They do not actually allow you to understand how you are performing said action.

On the other hand, trainers allow you to gain a cognitive awareness of the techniques that improve your abilities (i.e. understanding that adding backspin to the soccer ball will keep it closer to your feet, rather than just being physically able to strike it with more delicacy). This is why it makes more sense for canisters to not count towards the two-training limit.

EDIT: If you guys hadn't noticed by now, I <3 soccer.

[Sudanna]

Quote:

If you guys hadn't noticed by now, I <3 soccer.

As does Nalyd

[Brock The Archmage]

I only read the first page, this is a response to it, no idea what happened in the rest of the thread yet.

 

The canisters are basically mini-Geneforges, and the Geneforge was built after careful study of DNA and what happens to the DNA after the Shapers continue their old bombarding with magic energy. It seems likely that anyone with KNOWLEDGE about the relevant attribute to increase, and lots of knowledge about DNA and the materials to make a canister, and who knows how to make a canister, can do so. The original canisters were made by Shapers remember. While he uses his own genetic makeup as a base, He then changes it in some way to work the improvement. someone with strength 2 could make a strength canister by using his knowledge of what makes a person stronger.