In my opinion ... (some Spoilers)[G5]

[Randomizer]

In my opinion:

 

Favorite thing I did was rob Shaper Rawal's bedroom taking his bathrobe and slippers without getting caught. I also grabbed everything else that wasn't nailed down.

 

The hardest zone to clear was Lerman's Pass.

 

The most nerve wrecking zone was entering Gorash-Kel for the first time to explore it and looting it while dodging the inhabitants.

 

My favorite artifact was the Firesteel Gauntlets.

 

My favorite weapon was the puresteel sword.

[pitchblack]

You play WAAYYYY too much...

 

Oh wait.

 

You were a tester.

 

(Facepalms himself).

[Delicious Vlish]

In my opinion, now more than ever, the Servile is ridiculously over powered.

[The Lurker]

"More than ever"? The servile sucked in GF4. Heck, anything that isn't a Shaper or Lifecrafter tends to be weak, with the possible exception of the Guardian in GF2.

 

Jeff has never once managed to make the Geneforge classes balanced, IMO. It's probably no different in GF5.

 

EDIT : So, is there finally a Tasty Vlish in GF5 or not?

 

EDIT 2 : And mind you, I don't *mind* unbalanced classes - I'm merely stating what's probably a fact. In fact, I think picking a singleton-type character provides a much harder challenge than setting the difficulty to Torment.

[Delicious Vlish]

I'm sorry, but the Servile was arguably one of the best power gamer classes in G4. No real weakness at all.

 

No point in explaining it though.

[The Lurker]

Well, either you know something that I don't (which would greatly surprise me considering how many hours I spent testing GF4's classes), or there's a misunderstanding.

 

Is the servile fun to play? I do think so. Can it be a good character? Definetely, if you give it the right items and spend your skill points carefully. Is this class hard to master? Yes. Understanding how to play as a Servile is very difficult (partially due to the nerf Mental Magic was given - many players will take a while to accept this).

 

Lifecrafter/Shapers, due to the way the GF engine works, have access to "ultimate" tactics that simply don't work as well with other classes. Like, say, being able to rush enemies with creations, run away, restore your essence, make some more creations, and so on until there's nothing left.

 

Serviles can be very good, but in the first four GF games, the Shaper/lifecrafter is the absolute most powerful class, IMO. But I will listen to anything you may have to say, and if necessary, admit that I'm wrong. I just think the chances of me being wrong in this one case are pretty slim. ^^

[Randomizer]

I ran in torment a guardian that killed almost everything without creations helping him. There are a few things that I never went back to kill because I wasn't getting experience at the time until Jeff revised the cutoff for no experience by 5 levels. A single character is doable, but harder. Some areas favor melee attacks and others favor missle to pick off creations without being swarmed.

 

There isn't a Tasty Vlish, but it Dera South Road there is someone who talks about it if you have a Rebel reputation at the time.

 

Edit - Serviles get some really funny dialog options and even better responses. They are easier to run than guardians since the have better magic for buffing and mental.

[The Lurker]

Thanks for the info, Randomizer. And to think I wasn't being serious when I mentioned the Tasty Vlish. Now I really can't wait for the Windows version.

[Randomizer]

You're welcome. I was surprised to see that Jeff had slipped a reference in to the game.

[Delicious Vlish]

A Servile can shape just about as good as a shaper class through items. Plus, cheap combat and magic skills.

 

Think "red wizard" tactics.

[The Lurker]

Well, actually, that's exactly my problem with the servile. No real weakness, but no real strength either...

 

Even after getting used to distracting (and later in the game, damaging) my enemies with shaping, learning that Daze becomes useless later in the game, making my Servile physically pretty darn strong, hitting my enemies from afar when necessary...

 

...I came to the conclusion that I've seen more powerful classes. I mean, I did just fine with most dungeons, but it literally took me forever to understand how to make a Servile that could handle many Wingbolts at once, Matala, the Turabi Gate, the Western Morass... you get the idea.

 

Sometimes there's just nothing that can beat the good ol' "make many powerful creations and reduce everything to paste" shaper tactics.

[Delicious Vlish]

A Servile doesn't need to make creations when he can control them.

 

Mental magic.

 

I'm the guy that pretty much wrote the book on how to play Agent types. Way back when, when G1 came out, everybody said the Agent was the weakest class. Nobody knew how to play them right. I kept telling people the Agent was the most powerful.

 

Fast forward a bit, and we have the Servile. Tactics have changed a bit, but most of the basics remain the same. Any class can dominate the game and become brutally overpowered through the use of mental magic. This is not readily apparent however. On normal play, this isn't as important really. But when you scale up the difficulty, you make mental magic stronger.

 

Because of this, Agent types, Serviles, the stronger their enemies are, the stronger they become. As always, strength lies in controlling the minds of others. Monster X on normal difficulty can be dealt with, killed, with some effort, by any class really. On higher difficulties, Monster X gains thousands of hit points and becomes a real spot of trouble... But also a potentially deadly minion for you to control. There are creatures that you can control... Powerful creatures. But you can't always shape them. Some creations are out of your creation range.

 

Strength lies in the subtle use of monster economy. Encounter one mob, daze, acid, charm. Cast terror to break mob up. Make sure you try to herd a creation or two toward where you know, or suspect more monsters might be waiting. Don't kill them, use them. Drive them ahead with terror because you can't control them directly, and, when you ease your self forward and see more monsters, charm the first one you can see on the edge of the screen. You want to drive the most powerful ones forward if you can, but weakened, damaged, burned by acid, allow them to spend whatever is left of their lives serving you, and allow the weaker creations to wear and whittle them down. When all the weak ones are dead, the strong ones, which YOU control, are either near death or dead.

 

The Servile exceeded the Agent in G4 due to survivability. A Servile can turtle down, and with the right spells, become nearly invulnerable. You could weather any storm, outlast any foe. In G5, spells changed. But with the right items, you can become quite sturdy. You can reach about a thousand hit points. You can still become a solid immovable mass that is virtually impossible to kill, and, as such, can stand in the thick of a heated battle, directing the flow of events, like a conductor leading an orchestra. The fundamentals remain the same. He or she who can cast mental magic rules the game. Big difference now is, surviving enemy assaults. If you tag something with acid or lightning aura, enemies will make a beeline for you. Enemies are smarter, and defensive spells can not be cast in such a way that you become invincible. As such, the only thing that matters is defensive capability, and it is in this that the Servile excels. You can wear anything and everything around you down, with no worry what so ever of anything wearing you down. You can, for all intents and purposes, become invulnerable, even though godhood through buffing has been nerfed.

 

A good example. I had a Servile in the beta. I needed ammo for my baton. I encountered an area that had who knows how many reaper turrets. Testers will know the area. I prepared my self, and then proceeded to walk through there, stabbing each turret to death with the Oozing Sword. I took very little damage and was in no real danger the whole time. Yes, I was pumped full of reaper thorns each round. Yes, they did some damage. But they really didn't hurt much and missed frequently, or were parried. What damage I did take was easily regenerated. I harvested those reaper thorns the hard way and walked out of there with enough ammo to last me through the end game.

 

Also, it is entirely possible to go through the pass with the eyebeast guarding it before completing the stoneworks quest and getting a pass from Astoria. I'm not sure I could do this with any character but the Servile. Nothing else is sturdy enough. Completing that second pass with the eyebeast is how you get the Oozing Sword too, and it is important to get that early. Getting it allows you to make short work of the golem guards in the stoneworks.

[Randomizer]

I told Jeff to replace those turrets that drop reapers with submission turrets. I went through that area to harvest reapers for my guardian. It sure angered that Shaper that ran the zone.

 

I got through the golems in the Stoneworks with just a steel broadsword, but armor was the key since I could stand there and hack away without taking major damage. It even works for an agent.

[Delicious Vlish]

Submission turrets are the only thing that really concerns me.

[The Lurker]

Well, mental magic in GF4 *is* strong... But only if you spend a *lot* of skill points to make it efficient. How do you manage to keep your servile physically strong if you focus on mental magic? Is mental magic less effective on Windows? I tried your crowd control strategy the very first time I played as a Servile, and was forced to change my strategy because I got, like, totally obliterated. That's why I think the Infiltrator is best if you want to use crowd control tactics. A servile has to waste a lot of skill points in mental magic to make it effective, especially on powerful magical creations like Wingbolts and Glaahks. The last few times I played as a servile, I never even bothered with mental magic and did just fine.

 

(Of course, maybe I didn't reload enough times when I tried the mental magic strategy... but I felt it was just too frustrating.)

[Delicious Vlish]

Some people get it, other people don't.

[The Lurker]

Some people get it' date=' other people don't./quote']

 

I hate you.

 

Seriously, I'll try to find some time to replay GF4 with your strategy. If I do find some time, I'll let you know whether I get killed as badly as before. Happy?

[Delicious Vlish]

Really, some people get it, others don't. Not all of us have crafty minds. For some people, even with a detailed guide of what to do and how to do it, they don't have the sort of mind it takes to follow through and apply it properly. This isn't an insult or anything, just an observation. Some people are suited for swarming an enemy, using brute force, or applying stealth. We all have tactics that work well for us.

 

While I can be a bit stealthy in Geneforge games, I am not particularly good at it. My approach is to obliterate anything and everything in my path, sow chaos and discord in the enemy ranks, and leave nothing living in my wake. Being forced to sneak around or apply stealth irritates me to no end.

 

For those who do have the mindset to pull off my original Agent strategy, who have played the game through, who have flourished and done well, they can attest to what true power is.

 

Others, they will remain confused and do what works for them. Strategy is relative.

 

I will say though, the glass cannon paper tiger type build is pretty much a dead end now. It can be done, but it is far to risky and prone to failure.

 

Now, it is turtles. Turtles all the way down. Enemies are to strong to obliterate instantly, to many things can clean your clock in one hit, so now it is more about who can outlast who.

[Terra Alcolyte]

I almost never use mental magic and when i do use high level mental magic spells they never work.But aura of flames always works.

 

 

I play on easy.

 

 

Whats the point of playing on torment?

[Lyric]

the point is to test yourself, to test how capable you are at beating something that is clearly much stronger than you(when it comes to brute strength). On lower difficulty levels you can get through the whole game by simply clicking on the enemy, while on torment a tad bit of thinking is required.

 

 

Oh, and i forgot, there's a certain degree of satisfaction knowing that you beat the game on "Torment"

[Delicious Vlish]

Actually, to be fair, Jeff did well with this one. Even on normal, some thinking is required. There are moments where you are in very real danger of being killed.

[Locmaar]

I still think that all levels of difficulty in Jeff's games have their merits. As he usually states himself: games should be fun. So, if you don't enjoy playing on torment - why should you? If you prefer the game on easy - why shouldn't you.

 

Playing on torment doesn't make you a better person - at least not outside these boards.

 

PS: Oh, and I forgot: this is not Leisure Suit Larry, guys. You can win the game even if you screw up on skill point distribution. I actually do that on purpose to cater to my role playing urges and needs.

 

And guess what: I beat the game too, you know? And it was fun, even though I didn't use the one and only maxed-out-distribute-your-points-right character build. I use mental magic a lot, because it's fun. It costs a lot of skill points? Well, why not. I can't wield a shield, cause I'm too weak? What a shame. I nuked the Shaper council? You bet.

I wonder how that happened.

[Delicious Vlish]

No, it doesn't.

 

But it does change character strengths.

 

An Agent's strength is not readily apparent on easy difficulty. Nothing lives long enough to matter. It is easy to say she is underpowered or weak, when compared to a Guardian who can plow through anything. Go from easy to torment though, and the strengths of the characters change. Heck, even going up just a notch, changes your enemies enough to give you a taste of change. The power shifts. Spells change. Mental magic is nearly worthless at lower difficulties. Sure, it has uses, but it is utility at best, we've established that by now. At higher levels, mental magic is the most reliable way to deal damage and death. Always has been, always will be. From Augmented Sholai to War Tralls, there is an army around you waiting to be tapped.

[Locmaar]

Yeah, I know. I don't play on 'easy' either. But I don't like the bashing of peolpe who do.

[Randomizer]

Jeff made this game more difficult than GF4. You can't just roll through the demo without increasing a skill to deal damage. There is some thought involved in the major fights and even in clearing zones filled with swarms of creations that now come after you when you try to pick them off one by one.

[Delicious Vlish]

Actually, you can roll through the demo, if you are sneaky, and make it to the testing grounds. Sneak through the tests and pick up the create clawbug skill.

 

Battle shaping of 1 will allow clawbug creation, from there on, you can steamroll everything.

 

When you get a chance, upgrade to plated bugs and clawbugs. Swarm enemies.

 

The new clawbugs and plated bugs are some wicked evil bugs.

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: Locmaar

Yeah, I know. I don't play on 'easy' either. But I don't like the bashing of peolpe who do.

Renaming Easy to Casual and adding the descriptions of each difficulty seems like a good move, although obviously we can't really tell if it's made more people play on Easy.

[The Lurker]

Well. Now you really made me want to know more. I'm going to try a GF4 Servile again on Torment. I'll focus heavily on Mental Magic and Spellcraft. We'll see if it's really easier to play that way.

 

The reason why I'm being so skeptical is this : every time I played GF4, Mental Magic didn't really help in Big Boss fights (like Matala, the Old Golem, Scourge Vossizon, the Maddened Trall, and so on). But maybe there are ways to still be strong even if you play a mental-heavy servile. I'll just have to be more careful with how I spend my skill points.

 

Although I seriously doubt the Servile can be better than the Lifecrafter in any way (I never had any major problems while playing as a Lifecrafter, Torment or not), it could be than I underestimated it.

[Delicious Vlish]

For those battles you listed, you want some battle magic, plenty of it, and a nice sharp sword too.

 

Mental magic works best against swarms and mobs. Singular battles require different tactics.

[The Lurker]

Thanks for the advice - I've started the Mental Heavy servile replay. I'm almost done with Chapter 1 - I just have to finish the Dumping Pit.

 

Do you use missile weapons? I think they're pretty helpful right now, since my thorns and javelins hit more often than my firebolts.

 

I haven't had any real challenge so far, with the exception of those nasty shapers guarding Spirefield. And I hate these turrets.

 

Then again, the player isn't really supposed to attack them before the caravan quest, so I guess I was asking for it.

[Delicious Vlish]

This conversation is probably better off in the G4 area... But yes, missile weapons are great. To save energy, cast daze and use batons with venom or acid. Pew pew pew!

[The Lurker]

Thanks again. And don't worry, if my servile's adventures get interesting enough, I'll make a thread in the GF4 forum instead.

[VCH]

What exactly is the difference between Casual, Normal, Hard, and Torment?

 

Hit points?

 

BTW: I'm playing on Hard for the first time in one of Jeff's games, usually I pick normal, because I feel that's how the game was meant to be played. Something to do with it being called Normal I guess.

[Acky]

The difference between the four is the amount of damage each enemey, its AI level, and its resistances to types of attacks. A5 is the only game where HP has played a signifigant role.

[Lilith]

Ackrovan doesn't know what he's talking about. The primary effect is that higher difficulties increase the level of every enemy in the game, which in turn affects all of their stats and hit points. Enemies will hit more often, do more damage and have much more HP. Difficulty has no effect at all on resistances or AI behaviour.

[Archaeolagent]

Almost no effect. For NPCs (*not* for your own creations) level appears to have some kind of an impact on mental magic resistance. It's possible this just comes from Intelligence like with your characters, but it's unclear, since Dex and End do not contribute to acid and poison resistence for enemies.

[The Lurker]

Hmm. It sounds like it hasn't always been that way. Interesting. How did Torment work in BoA? Did it increase Level too? It seemed to make the monsters' regeneration more efficient, as well as increase their hit rate and damage.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: VCH

BTW: I'm playing on Hard for the first time in one of Jeff's games, usually I pick normal, because I feel that's how the game was meant to be played. Something to do with it being called Normal I guess.

That's fairly accurate. Jeff wants the most testing on Normal, because that's where the game is meant to be playable. Casual should be a cakewalk for the dedicated sort of gamer who usually beta tests, and Torment doesn't really have a difficulty ceiling by design.

—Alorael, who doesn't know if anyone plays on Hard. The general view seems to be that a challenge should be as much challenge as possible.

[Randomizer]

Jeff mentioned that one beta tester was using Hard. We used to have several players at that level including Magma Dragoon.

[Blurb]

In my opinion... I am really liking G5 so far. I just got my reg but I'm replaying with a new character, so I'm still not past demo.

 

I like the character selection. I like the way you can pair the different strengths you're interested in and choose a PC that fits that, like magic/shaping and combat/magic, etc. More choices and very replayable.

 

My favorite thing is the change in battle play, where you can have 1 AP and still attack. In previous games, you were stuck if the rogues decided to stand out of range and make you go after them. If you retreated, they always had more range than you. Dang that bites when your party gets toasted because it loses turns for moving and the bad guys just keep coming.

 

Most games just don't have a story. I'd rather play a turn-based rpg that's interesting than a high-tech one that's all flash and no substance. That's why I really love the Geneforge series.

 

For those who have beta tested or had the chance to play through once or twice, I would like to hear others' opinions about the endgame. Is it as satisfying as previous games in the series?

[Alorael at Large]

I'm pretty sure actions with 1 AP were introduced in Geneforge 4. Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

 

—Alorael, who will comment only that games with sequels have to be careful with endings. Geneforge, which wasn't intended originally to necessarily be Geneforge 1, lets you rule the world. Geneforges 2-4? Probably not so much. Geneforge 5 has no such restrictions.

[Archaeolagent]

Geneforge 4 let you act with 1 AP left.

[Corker]

The one AP left thing I think mostly benefitted melee characters. It was one of the bigger reasons why I didn't go with battle creations or a guardian in the earlier geneforges.

 

Though actually, the thing the biggest change I liked the most from Geneforge 4 was how encumberance was only based on items you had equipped, not items in your backpack. It was a right pain leaving loot stashes on each island in random barrels because I couldn't carry all the items, and I didn't necessarily want to vendor them.

[Blurb]

Oh, sorry about that. Okay, well that explains it. I never finished G4 because too many life events happened. It was hard to go back to it and remember where I was in the game. I didn't know the rules had changed then, so I was probably limiting my own game with what I did play. lol Also, I'm not a great player and I'm one of those people who really likes a walkthrough, and it wasn't done at that time. It takes a while for those to get done. Some of the best walkthroughs I have ever seen in games are done by the people here.

 

Corker, you're neater than I was, with the barrels. My stuff was in piles everywhere.

[RiotGearEpsilon]

Man, screw you guys. I'm playing a servile and I'm being utterly blended. I'm spamming 'healmenow' and still dying frequently.

 

Fortunately the writing is so good I don't even care.

[Archaeolagent]

What have you invested your skills in?

[Lilith]

Really, the only bad way to play a servile is to charge into battle alone and get swarmed. You can use mental magic to daze enemies and pick them off one by one or charm them and make them fight each other instead of you, you can try to lead enemies around corners and fight them one or two at a time, you can even make disposable creations to use as meatshields -- just don't try to take on every enemy in sight all at once. The servile can be tough, but not that tough.

[Delicious Vlish]

The servile I beat the beta with was that tough.

[RiotGearEpsilon]

Right now I'm:

 

Str 9

Dex 4

Int 5

End 9

 

Melee 10

Range 4

Quick 12

Parry 9

 

Battle 5

Mental 6

Blessing 6

Spellcraft 4

 

Fire 1

Battle 1

Magic 0

Healing 5

 

Leadership 10

Mechanics 3

Luck 4

 

@ level 35.

 

It's possible this is a blisteringly stupid build. I really have no idea what I'm doing. I just love the servile and I don't really have the patience to micromanage my Creations.

[RiotGearEpsilon]

Also? Glaahks are the most infuriating opponents conceivable as a singleton. They stunlock you and then you die. :C