If there is one thing I miss from other SW games...

[Mod.]

It is killing anyone and everyone. SWS games are getting too linear now, and now all characters are too important for you to be able to kill whoever you want; I can't even get people to hate me by taking all their stuff. Jeff's games were founded on players making decisions, but Avadon so far has me just following a story, with not much decision making so far, or they don't have an effect on the game yet. I miss being able to attack whoever I want, and maybe being the last significant intelligent life form if I'm having a bad day.

 

Also, I like being able to go solo. Avadon isn't a game where there is even a tiny advantage to playing a solo character, and trying it would be extremely difficult.

[Randomizer]

You can play a solo character on torment difficulty and do almost the entire game.

 

Now with the junk bag you don't even have to go back to pick up loot.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

When did killing random towns in older SW games have anything to do with making decisions? Well, decisions with meaningful consequences, anyway. I agree that Avadon is pretty linear, as much so as the recent Avernums, and a lot more so than the Geneforges, but town-killing would only make the game less linear if doing so had a meaningful effect on the story. It never has (aside from sometimes getting you a nonstandard game over/preventing you from completing game-critical quests), and tends not to even in most other RPGs in which the player can theoretically fight everyone. I found this especially annoying in the first Fallout: the PC can massacre entire towns, which in theory should have the greatest ramifications of almost anything they can do. Does this make them the greatest living outlaw, or a blood-soaked warlord of the wastes? No. It...lowers their karma and occasionally makes them the target of bounty hunters? Well that's exciting and realistic!

 

Fun way to blow off steam? Sure. Meaningful decision that affected the setting or reduced plot linearity? Not at all.

[AaronC]

Yes, I miss the funny dialog boxes when you would be auto-killed in major towns.

[goblindolf]

Originally Posted By: Mod.

It is killing anyone and everyone. SWS games are getting too linear now, and now all characters are too important for you to be able to kill whoever you want

Well, I agree they are too linear, but not because of the amount of people you can or cannot kill.

Long gone are and big unknown worlds to explore, with hidden away dungeons and treasures waiting to be found if you explored.

Avadon felt like a long tunnel with nowhere to go but where npcs told you to go, places only existed if you were told they existed.. It felt like someone was holding your hand throughout the entire game and refused to let go of you incase you hurt yourself by choosing where you wanted to go, not that you actually could on any normal difficult setting.

I remember reading somewhere on the forum that jeff scrapped the big explorable worlds in favor of linear gameplay because it's easier to balance, but the tradeoff is just not worth it. He removed one of the best parts of his previous games in the tradeoff.

He always added stuff like warning dialogs and semi tough encounters before the really tough places so you knew if you struggled with them it was time to turn back.. or just reload if you ignored the warnings and died anyway? autosave isnt a new concept

[Randomizer]

I hope the Avernum 1 remake sticks to the open world format and doesn't suddenly acquire obstacles like no boats until you achieve certain quests.

 

In Avernum 6 reaching the Eastern Gallery was the closest to the old games. Avernum 4 and 5 didn't quite have the same places where you just could explore.

[Firecage]

I agree totally with you Randomizer. I really miss the whole huge open world explore thing from Avernum 1-3/Exile 1-3. Even From Geneforge in a way, because there you could find new places as you explored.

 

(Hopefully I phrased it right.)

[Alberich]

I don't agree, actually - now, I do love nonlinear gaming, especially in tabletop RPG's when I have time for them (which is never), but there are several things I like about having Avadon this way (judging by medals I'm only about halfway through right now, so I don't know it all the way through).

 

The thing is, the linear structure fits very well with the game concept. I mean, you're basically a soldier (with an unusual amount of leeway to take side tasks), and soldiers do the missions they're given. In the first 3 Geneforge games, at least, you got cut off from your higher authority very early on, with the result that you pretty well *had* to improvise and explore, and your storyline - like your character - would be expected to meander all over the place.

 

It already stretches credibility that you get so much freedom on side quests and "merecenary moonlighting." Redbeard & Co., at least as I see them so far, are portrayed as pretty competent, and if they know what the most pressing issue is that needs to be addressed right *now*, you'd expect them to direct their available agents right there right then, leading to what must be a linear progression of assignments.

 

Another advantage is that it seems to have given Jeff the boldness to write some more customized NPC dialog - I love the way the companions actually interact with you and each other on the quests. If tightening up the plot means he can spice it up with a little more character depth - more power to him!

 

Combined with the medals, it also makes it a little easier to remember where the story's gone, if you're not able to play marathon sessions.

 

(Another thing I'm surprised I like is the level cap - I wasn't expecting to at first - but now I see I'm under no pressure to take every quest possible, in the hopes of being tough enough for the endgame, and I can reject what looks dubious and take what I like.)

[Firecage]

Actually. From Avernum 2-6 you were a soldier.

[Jerakeen]

But Avernum had an unusually liberal interpretation of the role of soldiers. You were more like an elite cadre of semi-autonomous, er, raw recruits? OK, it never made a lot of sense.

[Firecage]

You mean Mercenaries which were given the ranks of soldiers?

[Taliesin]

I have returned from my long exile, after my first year of college, and discover a whole new world to explore! In a relatively linear fashion, that is.

 

Anyway, one of the things I miss most about the old games, particularly the old Avernum games, was the ability to really customize your characters. Now there's basically just four stats and a skill tree, with a very simple skill point system... whereas back in the day you had virtually limitless options. Not that I don't like Avadon's options, it's just that there aren't many. Oh well, I only just finished the demo material so we'll see how the rest of the game goes. Knowing Jeff, it's sure to be awesome regardless.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

So the skill traits took a hit on Avadon? It would be nice if the future games had the skill traits of Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. I haven't played the other Elder Scrolls games but Morrowind was awsome!

I also miss the openess of Exile and the early Avernums. The look of the newer games make the game world seem way too small.

 

Post #513

[Firecage]

Mmm, would be nice if Jeff keeps the original A1/E1 masisve skill system in the Avernum remake.

 

Also, in a way its sad the current game engine doesnt support outdoors mode from the first 3 Avernums.

[Alorael at Large]

Originally Posted By: Arch-Mage Solberg

So the skill traits took a hit on Avadon?

It's just very different. Each character has four stats (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Endurance), and each character also has a skill tree with 13 skills on it. The points are separate, and while there are only those 13 skills, they give you new abilities when you put one point in, then some additional bonus at three points, and then another bonus at level 6. (And, of course, each point boosts each ability that skill already grants.)

Over four character classes, that's a total of 52 skills. Granted, some are identical or nearly so, but you still have variety. Or you could look at it as far more since each skill actually has several different abilities or powers it grants.

Is that endless customization? No. Your Blademaster will never be a healer or throw fireballs. You have to stick to the tree, which means you'll end up filling out most of the bottom to get to the top. Still, while you have less ability to make your characters into anything, you do have customization, and your characters have more different things they can do than they do in previous Spiderweb games.

—Alorael, who agrees that the skill system isn't perfect yet. It's also far from terrible, and it's a nice change of pace from the usual system for sheer novelty. Download the demo and see how it works for yourself!

[Randomizer]

The skill tree makes the classes different. No more no matter what you start with even with pre-generated characters they can all look alike at the end.

[Lilith]

The skill tree also makes it nearly impossible to build a useless character, although it can still be done if you're determined enough.

[Lokiron]

Originally Posted By: Lilith

The skill tree also makes it nearly impossible to build a useless character, although it can still be done if you're determined enough.

A thing that was incredibly easy to accomplish in Avernum (don't know about Geneforge). And each different Avernum had different traps..

[The Mystic]

It's possible to make useless characters in all of Jeff's games.

 

Originally Posted By: Lilith

The skill tree also makes it nearly impossible to build a useless character, although it can still be done if you're determined enough.

I take it you're talking from experience?

[Kalirren]

Thirding the regret for losing the explorable map in Geneforge, with its possibility of finding areas too early and getting yourself into trouble. And on the same note, adding the possibility of finding hidden passageways etc. without asking the right person -- maybe only if you have a tracker with you? -- would be nice. This way broke the suspension of disbelief for me, by requiring the use of metagame reasoning.

 

The other thing that we were missing from Geneforge was the option for making charisma checks. Man, that was satisfying, when you could sweet talk someone from near-hostility into being helpful and giving you directions.

 

Also, I was continually annoyed by the lack of a nonlethal damage option; I know this isn't new, but it was more significant in this game. Miranda and Redbeard are always telling you to bring people back alive for questioning, but not a single person in the entire game ever came quietly. OK, perhaps that's a testament to the fearsomeness of Avadon's "enhanced interrogation techniques". But why on earth is it impossible for someone on your team to knock someone out and tie them up?

 

On the other hand, I did like the simplified skill system, and loved these huge maps for all the areas!

 

ETA: also, the junk bag, which removes a huge amount of the annoying inventory management issues.

[Zummi]

Entering from other sides of the map. You can do it in the Geneforge games by clicking an area icon repeatedly.

 

I hope Jeff does that for Ad2 or add, I dunno, little icons around an area icon representing the entry/exit points it has.

[A less presumptuous name.]

Originally Posted By: meAzuma

Entering from other sides of the map. You can do it in the Geneforge games by clicking an area icon repeatedly.

Just so you know, there's a faster way. If you want to enter from the right and it's not the default, select the zone on the right and then, without traveling, select the target zone. You will now be directed to the right-hand entrance.

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Originally Posted By: Applied Deconstruction

Alorael, who agrees that the skill system isn't perfect yet. It's also far from terrible, and it's a nice change of pace from the usual system for sheer novelty. Download the demo and see how it works for yourself!

I would very much like to download the demo. But it being 106 MB and me using dial-up service, it would take at least 3 hrs to download. I can't tie up the phone line for that long. I'll just have to wait and come up with the money to buy the disk.

Post #516

[Alorael at Large]

Download at night when nobody wants the phone?

 

—Alorael, who could also suggest looking for other places to download and a handy USB drive. No internet access at school, at work, or at a library?

[Arch-Mage Solberg]

Originally Posted By: Wordplay Kills

Download at night when nobody wants the phone?

—Alorael, who could also suggest looking for other places to download and a handy USB drive. No internet access at school, at work, or at a library?

The other problem is that it isn't my computer or phone line or house for that matter. It's my aunt's house. I live next door, but when she goes to bed I have to leave so she can lock the door.

Post #522

[Superba]

... is Bargha's Arena contests in Avernum 6. It's really upper class fight, Gladiator feeling, hope there will be an Arena in Avadon II.

[Zummi]

Except you control monsters! And when you equip a forget-me-not-doodad, you get other monsters in your roster. And in the end, when you win it all, you get a new bunny babe party member who attacks enemies with carrots!

[Superba]

Can't stand carrots, really. Maybe a duck babe who attacks enemies with... with whatever ducks do eat.

[Erebus the Black]

Originally Posted By: Superba

Can't stand carrots, really. Maybe a duck babe who attacks enemies with... with whatever ducks do eat.

Leek?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted By: meAzuma

Except you control monsters! And when you equip a forget-me-not-doodad, you get other monsters in your roster. And in the end, when you win it all, you get a new bunny babe party member who attacks enemies with carrots!

still a better party member than the turnip

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Or for that matter the dog, or the flower, or the voodoo doll, or various children. Oh man, that game had an excessive number of characters.

[Zummi]

And yet, that one guys is really MAGUS!

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Not canonically, no. He just happens to walk like Magus, look like Magus, quack like Magus. On the bright side, unlike the dog and the turnip, he's actually a pretty useful character.

[Aoslare]

The answer isn't so clear, unfortunately (but perhaps appropriately). Here's some facts:

 

* The Vipor Manor mission was based on a Japanese Super Famicon Satellaview release called "Radical Dreamers" which starred Serge, Kid, and a mysterious mage named Magil who is eventually revealed to be Magus.

* The character of Guile was based on Magil (there is actually a "Magil" reference somewhere in the game, I forget where).

* The CC director stated in an interview that they had originally planned for Guile to be Magus, but this was one of many threads dropped during the rush to finish development of CC. They decided that it would be better to truncate that thread than to do a crappy job of it.

* For a long time, this was where things stood: you could not directly link Guile to Magus. Since CC has characters who resemble all playable CT characters in name, looks, element, and powers (Serge for Crono; Leena for Marle; Luccia for Lucca; Glenn for Frog; Grobyc for Robo; Leah for Ayla; plus Guile for Magus) it is more plausible that Guile is unrelated.

* Chrono Trigger DS changed things. If you don't accept its changes (and I am tempted not to), see the line above. However, Chrono Trigger DS includes several scenes relevant to CC. One sends Dalton to take over Porre (ugh) and one throws Magus onto the Zenan continent, around 1000 AD, with amnesia, all but explicitly stating that he became Guile.

 

Edit: Oh, yeah. I'd argue that he's decidedly -not- a useful character. Granted, there are not many good Black innates, but Guile's stats are dramatically worse than Spoiler's, Harle's, and Grobyc's, and arguably worse than Skelly's; his fierce attack usually misses (possibly due to a bug); and his inverted element grid makes him a poor element user early on (including the Viper Manor mission where he is required if you recruit him) and also a poor element user later, considering the general better-utility and -efficiency of the lower- and mid-element slots.

[Ceiling Durkheim]

Huh. I hadn't kept up with the DS version, just CC and its director's statements.

 

Maybe I'm misremembering this, but I recall Guile's stats being pretty good. He definitely has one of highest magic attributes in the game, and I recall his defensive stats being respectable, though his physical attacks are indeed weak. I didn't use his fierce attacks much, because I preferred the more accurate 1- and 2-AP attacks to build up his element level. He's also one of the few characters who has tech skills that compare favorably to generic offensive elements at the same level. While the inverted element grid does make him weaker at low level, I disagree that low-level elements worked better in the late game. The fact that they consumed 7 AP regardless of level on the grid meant that while using low-level element slots in theory allowed for more casting, it also caused the character in question to hemorrhage AP.