Understated Ur-Drakon Nioca Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 2,0. White (Conflicted). That said, I second Enraged Slith. Without context, it's hard to answer the questions accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Artemis~ Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 **stares in anticipation** C'mon, get the debate fired up already! I need something juicy to read [that's not gossip Facebook posts]. ~Artemis and gossip. It gets on my nerves, unless it's something good. Like "OMG, ACKY'S PREGNANT!" Or something uber-irrelivent like that. Don't you love my productive input? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Geneforgeisformeyukkyu Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: Artie Luv **stares in anticipation** C'mon, get the debate fired up already! I need something juicy to read [that's not gossip Facebook posts]. ~Artemis and gossip. It gets on my nerves, unless it's something good. Like "OMG, ACKY'S PREGNANT!" Or something uber-irrelivent like that. Don't you love my productive input? Why should there be debates? There aren't enough mes to go around to debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 There isn't a whole lot left to debate. The geneforge universe has been well explored, as well as the issues, the corruption etc of all sides in the conflict. It's sad to see it go, but it's best to let it die in peace rather then try to constantly resurrect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted November 27, 2009 Author Share Posted November 27, 2009 Well then, if it has been so heavily debated, what is the answer? Obviously if "it is better to let it die in peace", then there must be an answer. Takers or Obeyers? Shapers or Rebels? Canisters or no? Was Litalia justified in releasing the Shredbugs on Astoria? What about the Unbound? I don't think it will ever be finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 You really didn't contradict me. I said there isn't much left to debate about, not that we had an "answer." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Hypnotic Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 If there is no answer than debating must continue! Litilita was unjustified releasing the shredbugs. Same for Unbound. Shapers need to be less cruel. No canisters except for the PC character. Shapers not rebels. Obeyers not takers. What is the Faction that would see the world be a guninely better place without needless distruction or mass panic by citizens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk llloyd Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 I think it is completely true that humans, and especially drakons, are not capable of handling the power to shape. It is too much and almost all are just too immature. This is even more obvious because the world we are talking from is better than a world with shaping. also i have not played the fifth so i don't know shredbugs thing, unbound obviously wrong, since the drakons are wrong, all of them always have been nothing but vengeance seeking tyrants using the excuse that shapers don't treat creations well enough, they obviously only care that the shapers want to kill them. that was what i have to say for now. I do think that barhzal may have been on the right track in that using canisters evolves one beyond human and that has enough maturity to use shaping, maybe, not likely. This makes me agree with nobody but the trakovites kinda, except i do not beleive shaping is inherently bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chittering Clawbug Dakkanor Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Shaping is not inherently bad its just that all the power corrupts now if it were possible on placing totally uncorruptable totally and unquestionably moral checks on shaping then maybe it should be allowed MAYBE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Spddin Ignis Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Astoria got what was coming to her. The unbound killed innocent people. Power for sanity is bad (canisters). Shaping created the economy of terrestia and hundreds of years of peace that was totally destroyed by the sucia shapers not destroying the geneforge and their work. Brahzal just made everything worse and takers are just crazy. Obeyers and awakened in the first one are fine considering the circumstances and the Sholai all need to go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk llloyd Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 If the shapers and their peace was so great the rebellion would not have got ANY humans besides litalia on their side. also i don't see how anyone could agree with the rebellion in g3 or four, basically vengeance hungry drakons burning any trace of shaper civilization who want power for themselves as worse opressors than the shapers and a bunch of selfish people who don't understand the needed safety for the power to shape, though i don't think any human should have a power so great as shaping, and the canisters give clarity most of the time, not insanity, though insanity a lot. most of the time people who are affected by the canisters become machine-like, logical and not irrational as humans and all other beings are. i would be for the unbound if they were for a greater world, not a drakon ruled world, even ghaldring, clear-headed as he is, will do anything to not lose, even make the world worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 the shredbugs were wrong,the unbound were wrong,canisters in moderation,shapers bring peace when unchallenged,obeyers not takers, no geneforge,ummmm... anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall A less presumptuous name. Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Shapers are overall good, but need some reform. Self-shaping should not be done, unless by specialized people shaping others to replace say, missing limbs. Mindless destruction (i.e. shredbugs and unbound) are bad. Good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Hypnotic Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 Originally Posted By: llloyd ...a bunch of selfish people who don't understand the needed safety for the power to shape... Thats just It. The people are ignorant of the shaper way and do not understand it. The Shapers would have avoided the Human rebbelion if they didn't guard their secrets so tightly or tried to explain to the common outsider what Shaping is. Outsiders see cruel oppressors and not Humans trying to do their job. The Shapers could have avoided alot of trouble had they not be so arrogant. Shapers can handle the Shaping, Its their communication skills between themselves and others that caused the rebbelion. Alwan and Astoria have both seen this, and both of them want to restore a better Shaper empire. So, I vote Shapers wit better communication skills as the rulers of terrestia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Quote: wit For real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Spddin Ignis Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 This is how the Shapers should've handled the situation Shaper: Servile! Work. Serville: But Shaper- Shaper: God Dang it. *Wispers under breath* Serville; *Arms and legs disentergrate* Shaper: Now sit there and starve. Problem solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Hypnotic Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Spddin, you forget the aftermath. Servile watching nearby tells of mean shaper. Rumours spread. Serviles attack shapers in force. Serviles die. Humans are disgusted. Humans and creations rebel. Shapers face another rebblion. Shapers are just to cruel for their not to be a rebllion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk llloyd Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Yes i kind of agree that the shaper empire was quite responsible as far as the game represented that time, which was not much, but as far as i can tell nothing all that much worse than our unleashing killer bees on the world ever really got out. but i do not think you can entirely blame the peoples misunderstanding and immaturity of the dangers of shaping on the shapers. example, the captain in the rebellion in g4 was mad at the shapers for letting his people starve because they did not help them by destroying the environment. though the shapers did put everything they did as something not fit for outsiders to understand, i'm not saying they are not at any fault. also lankan is g3 rebelling because of dumb diwanya did not having enough power to keep an entire island of rogues in check(sarcasm). i do think more fault was on the shapers though for creating a barrier between them and outsiders as if shapers are a different more superior species. but even if those peace times serviles should have either been treated better or made completely lacking free thought or emotions, maybe both. my vote for servants though is machines, kari was the only person i thought completely correct, and she was dead. if shapers invested more in golems as servants, who have no minds, and the serviles left were made equals all would be solved. golems don't even need food. the end of my thoughts so far, i was driving my friends crazy before now i shall unleash my crazy theories and arguing stamina on you people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Hypnotic Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: llloyd ... example, the captain in the rebellion in g4 was mad at the shapers for letting his people starve because they did not help them by destroying the environment. That guy said they wouldn't do it because of destorying the environment or something. The Shapers didn't explain things good enough. It was clear it was down to broken comunication in that case. Originally Posted By: llloyd also lankan is g3 rebelling because of dumb diwanya did not having enough power to keep an entire island of rogues in check(sarcasm). Its not Dinwainya not haveing enough power, its him not doing enough to protect the people. Dinwainya tried to explain he wasn't strong enough to protect the island but they didn't listen. Someone on that island said that the Shapers don't let people train in magic and they don't train with their swords. The shapers obviously didn't say how hard it was to learn magic. Once again, poor comnuication. Originally Posted By: llloyd i do think more fault was on the shapers though for creating a barrier between them and outsiders as if shapers are a different more superior species. My point exactly. Originally Posted By: llloyd but even if those peace times serviles should have either been treated better or made completely lacking free thought or emotions, maybe both. They have emotions for a reason. They are made to love working. If hey had less intelegence than they couldn't work outide shaper control and would perform their tasks with less quality. That would defeat the purpose of serviles. Originally Posted By: llloyd my vote for servants though is machines, kari was the only person i thought completely correct, and she was dead. if shapers invested more in golems as servants, who have no minds, and the serviles left were made equals all would be solved. golems don't even need food. Shapers are more about life than machines so they wouldn't do that. Machines also, are hard to bend to your will and if they go rouge, cannot be easily controlled. If the servants have no minds they can't exactly serve. Originally Posted By: llloyd the end of my thoughts so far, i was driving my friends crazy before now i shall unleash my crazy theories and arguing stamina on you people. I will gladly debate with you until we have argued everything to the point of stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk llloyd Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Ah cool already my first big debate, but i now don't have that much too say except control stuff, first machines would not go rogue, they can not, especially since the shapers would be smart enough to have a emergency shut down override, at least they should. Also i did not say the shapers were not at some fault, but it would be pretty bold of you to say that the regular people tried very hard to understand the shapers side. what i am saying is both sides are at fault because the shapers did not explicate, therefore being distant and tyranical seeming, and the people did not try to see it from the shapers point of view. also, by no mind i mean no commen sense, reasoning ability, not a blank zombie mind that goes uhhh.... and then obeys what you say and eats brains. i actually can't really understand why serviles can't be made as obedient as the servant minds, maybe having something to do with outsiders then not being able to control them, but was never said. also you can not say the serviles were okay before because like on gull island the good shaper made serviles were itching to rebel with little influence, so the design does need improvement. though this problem could be solved by being nicer that seems even more unlikely for the shapers, and even some people. anything we are not in accordance with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Hypnotic Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Machines won't go rouge your right. However machines can have faults in them. See Eliza's power system in G4. Machines work how they are designed to with no deviation and cannot adapt to new situations. Golems will always attack intruders, even if the Intruder is a friend. Servant minds are just that, Minds. They are made to be obediant just like servals. They can go rouge just not easily. Its due to their high intelegence that they do not go rouge. Servals on the other hand, if they had high intellegence would realise their slave like conditions and would rebel imediatly. That also raises the question about why minds don't rebel if they have high intellegence, and thats because minds only think about their Jobs and are not programmed to do things that arn't their jobs. Servals can't have their brains like that, otherwise once their specific Job is done, they have no purpose. Also, serviles already have little to no common sense, its what allows outsiders to control them easily. They need instructions, except for the few scribe serviles. The serviles on Gull island did not just rebel, and thats because their living conditions were not that good. They were constantly subjected to rouge creations or having to clean up after the rouge creations. This slowly made them go mad. I never said the outsiders tried hard to understand the shaper. I would imagine that If an outsider tried too hard to understand shapers they would be hung for conspiracy. Outsiders can only understand Shapers as much as the Shapers allow, and that isn't much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 public servants are always hated, its just to easy to scapegoat(the shapers in this case)people in charge. so when they said it would destroy the enviroment, thoughtless outsiders said "who needs an enviroment the shapers can fix anything" and blamed everything on them, in turn their is a social compact that the shapers partly broke by not taking proper care of the outsiders and serviles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Spddin Ignis Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 The servilles were perfectly fine until the sucia Island Incident. After that, the servilles who had developed independance after 200 years began to spread Ideas. P1: Shaper. We have found rogue servilles on some forgotten Barred Island P2: Which one? P1: Sucia Island sir P2: Oh really!? Cool. P1: Um sir, what should I do about it? P2: I don't care. Blow it up or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: Master1 Shapers are overall good, but need some reform. Self-shaping should not be done, unless by specialized people shaping others to replace say, missing limbs. Mindless destruction (i.e. shredbugs and unbound) are bad. Good? in a nutshell, yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk llloyd Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 before sucia island it is true no srvile in their sane mind would rebel, it was not all good and perfect. the shapers treated serviles as things basically, and the only reason no rebellion was because any servile that said no was killed on the spot. so though no rebellion obvious need for reform still, but because of the way humans are, the shapers would definetly never do any sort of reforming without a major crises that is actually a threat as a wake up call. actually everything was fine if you are okay with a pretty sentient species being treated as disposable(yes) things(not) who should be lucky they were ever created. just asking for a rebellion really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fledgling Fyora kate susan Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 DIE SPAM DIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Dantius Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 Spammers. I wish I had mod powers for times like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall A less presumptuous name. Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 The mods have all but abandoned this thread. You young kids just post too fast! And we've all gone through these debates many times over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 mod powers activate...... just wait..... someone will come sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Goldengirl Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Shaper Tristan mod powers activate...... just wait..... someone will come sooner or later. Spamming the thread with mod requests is not the proper way of getting their attention. Simply hit report post, fill out your complaint, and be done with it. Now, then. I myself find this entire morality quiz a little sketchy, based on... ridiculousness. Does anyone else agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Ephesos Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Thank you Shaper Tristan, for actually using the report post function. This is one instance where we're more than happy to drop by and use our mod-fu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 see.... i did do that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Illoyd i actually can't really understand why serviles can't be made as obedient as the servant minds, I think the game says once or twice that servant minds don't go rogue very often, but that's false. We see servant minds go rogue quite often in the series, and it's obviously enough of a threat that they're designed to be immobile and then redesigned later in the series so that they have a much shorter lifespan. We do see a few intelligent serviles that are completely obedient, but it seems very likely that one will go rogue sooner or later. That seems to be the end result of any creation given enough time and abuse. Dikiyoba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 i think in the case of the servant minds they go rogue because of madness, they rarely go rogue simply becasue they want freedom or they hate shapers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Hypnotic Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Madness or being overworked. Shaftoes Bunker G4, Looking after an Army non-stop, Control Core B G5, Creating and looking after an enitre army non-stop. Etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 overworked leads to madness, but yeah thats about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall A less presumptuous name. Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 It may also have to do with how they're shaped. If you can alter physical design, why not mental. It says in the beginning of G5 (?) that Shapers have been making dumber and more subservient serviles. They've probably been doing that with minds all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk llloyd Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Yeah that makes sense, since the shapers never before would ever say anything like "a rebellion of wimpy serviles, my amazing shaping and magic skills would not defeat that" so okay then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnificent Ornk Dikiyoba Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Shaper Tristan they rarely go rogue simply becasue they want freedom or they hate shapers. Serviles that weren't born free tend not to spontaneously want freedom or hate Shapers either. Usually it takes some combination of abuse, neglect, being constantly scared by rogues, being controlled by rogues, and free serviles giving them the idea. Free serviles are typically declared rogue by default and killed on sight even if they just want to live out their own lives in peace, so it's not really surprising if many of them demand freedom and hate Shapers. Dikiyoba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk Shaper Tristan Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 serviles are very gullible creatures, so i imagine that when the serviles from sucia came to terrestia the other serviles were awed by there speech and intellict, and thus had a very good hold on the minds of the impressionable serviles. that and they liked the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easygoing Eyebeast Enraged Slith Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 The rebels might have been okay if Lankan wasn't such a whiny little pissant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrulous Glaahk llloyd Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Man, i wish i was here for whatever was debated about with geneforge and the conclusion stuff. i shall live on, yet partly dead, and will come out to me living about 3 years less than i would have, but i am prepared to make the call with the rest of you that geneforge should be given a good grave, and a peaceful one. for what is 3 years to the rest of all our memories of such a compelling tale. end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotghroth Rhapsody Hypnotic Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 We have no idea about which is the proper ending for Geneforge and the debate still rages. mainly it boils down to personal preference. However if you take out the PC than you could use logic to assume the possible outcome. For example Fort Vengance would fall and the shredbugs would be released. Most Evidence points to a Rebel victory but if the Shapers get united than anything goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Spddin Ignis Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Well, the Shapers would be fine without the Pc killing them. They would've attacked ghaldrin and his rebels one by one The Shred bugs wouldn't have been released by the rebels because alwan knew of it and would've sent a Shaper to deal with it. Fort vengence would be fine because the rebels stated that they had sent many people before, and none had succeeded. So actually things point more towards Shapers unless Ghaldrin steps it up. Drakon: We are going to win! Shaper: Oh shut up! Drakon:You dare talk to me like that puny- Shaper: *Casts spell destroying Drakon* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Did you ever play the Rawal ending Spddin? The Shapers do in fact fail, and Ghaldring eventually takes over, with or without the PCs help. The player just speeds the process up if he/she is a rebel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchling Cockatrice Lilith Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 It's pretty clear from the Rawal ending that the Shapers eventually lose if you don't take action. edit: oh come on you have got to be kidding me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Spddin Ignis Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 But Ackrovan, the Rawal ending ends up like it does, again because of the Pc. He/she undermines the other council members. Yeah, i did my hw. What now Pc: Rawal, i don't think this is such a good idea. Rawal: Of course it is. *Rebels attack the mountains* Pc: I told you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Lets be a bit more specific on what Rawal wants you to do. 1) Kill the presence 2) Find the Shadow Road 3) Get a canister tome from Alwan 4) Kill Plantano Only maybe the last one could have a military aspect on it. No, Rawal did that to have a political edge, not to make the Shapers loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffable Wingbolt Spddin Ignis Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 I know he did it for a political edge, but it backfired. And i'm talking about what he makes you do after you take his ending. It says that you continue to undermine the others. So there is more that is not specifically mentioned in the game. Rawal: Go mess with alwans defences Pc: Why? Are you trying to make us loose the war? Rawal: *twists is hand* Pc: *Control tool rips hole in heart* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well-Actually War Trall Acky Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Ah. So you admit that you don't know what the PC does after the ending. Neither do I. Therefore, neither of us can make an assumption that the PC did anything to hurt the Shaper cause after the ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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