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A Geneforge morality quiz, or, Detect you faction, now with 100% accuracy!


Dantius

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The game says that it hurts the Shaper cause. It says something along the lines of by you constantly keeping them fighting among eachother, and Rawal hoarding power, the Shapers fail to work together and blah blah blah

 

 

Archon(sp?): You don't know anything

Spddinian:I know everything!

Archon: Fine, what do you know about me.

Spddinian: That you don't know everything.

 

IN all kindness- Spddin

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The PC does help Rawal undermine the other councilors if you choose that route. ("You help him to undermine the others on the Council and gain power.") However, Rawal was doing that before the PC ever got involved and clearly plans to continue doing so, so the PC has minimal impact there.

 

If the PC dies, the death text clearly states that the war goes on for several more years (though the eventual victor is never given).

 

Both cases refute the claim that the Shapers would be fine.

 

Dikiyoba.

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Spiddin's right here- in the ending text, it says that Rawal creates division between other Councillors in order to manipulate them to serve his own ends. However, this need not cause them to lose the war.

 

The real end text that shows what would happen if there was no PC is the death text, posted below

 

"The war continues for years more, a gruesome conflict that achieves nothing but more death and devastation"

 

 

Nowhere does it say that the war ever ends. For all we know, the world of Geneforge could become nothing more than another 1984 with magic, two superstates battling on for all eternity, with some minor quibbles on the side. It's impossible to tell for sure.

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Spiddin's right here- in the ending text, it says that Rawal creates division between other Councillors in order to manipulate them to serve his own ends. However, this need not cause them to lose the war.

I wasn't disputing that Rawal wasn't using you to gain an edge over the other councilors. Spddin was saying that you are the one who made a difference when choosing Rawal.

Also Spddin, in all honesty, that 1P 2P is getting a little grating.
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This is how I see the Ending going. Its quite long and It has spoilers so Spolier Box.

 

Click to reveal..
1) Fall of Fort Rockfall: Eaither Control Core B eventually being Destoyed by Litalias hand, or Alwan not doing anything. It could also fall by Astroia or Ghaldring sending someone to clear the secret acsess route which the game says Ghaldring was trying to do without Pc's help. Or simply its lack of resources leads to a powerful Drakon to wipe it out. There are too many negative variables for this fort not to fall.

 

2) Shredbugs get released. They are done by the time the Pc gets there so eventually they will be released. Rebels or Litalia, it dosn't matter. Alwan or Taygen won't interupt because they don't actually know the specific position of the Shadow road.

 

Using this I would say the Rebels are gaining ground on the Shapers. UNTIL!:

 

3) Council Meeting. Astorias Influence is shot. Everyone knows she is dealing with the rebels and the Shredbugs being released don't help either. Taygen can't complete his desease because one part is in an abandoned vault, the other is in the Shadow road which, following the release of the Shredbugs, would be hard to get to. Alwan has lost Fort Vengance but has palns for Victory. Rawal would lose his influence because with three councillors demanding something from his Repository and he hasn't given anyone anything. Also, the councillors all hate him, so they are unliekly to listen to him. So for the sake of this I will assume the Concil orders him to return the other councillors possesions.

 

Astorias papers are destoyed but it dosn't change what the Councillors know. Taygens sample won't help him complete Agent Purity without the other parts. Alwan gains evidence that he can beat the unbound.

 

So the Council would side with Alwan as he looks the least bad.

 

4) Assult on Gazki-Uss. This goes nowhere. Alwan dosn't have current info about it nor do the Shapers have someone to tip the Balance in their favor. Assult fails but the destuction caused by the attack hurts the rebels.

 

5) Geographically speaking, the Shapers are better off. First the Rebels took the east (During G3) causing destruction. Then the Shapers nearly took it all back casuing more destruction (Pre-G4). Than the rebels unleashed the unbound casuing further destruction (Post G4). The east is basically a scorched battle feild. The Shapers on the west are far better off. G5 Constantly states that the Rebels never made it far west and the Shapers have the Rich provinces. The Shapers are far better equipt to beat the rebels. Also the Human and creation parts of the rebbelion trust each other less and less with each passing day.

 

6) Now it gets fuzzy. So I will assume the stalemate contiunes for sevral more years like the game says until... Ghaldring dies of old age. He is the oldest major charcter in this game (Besides possibly Shema). The rebls lose their leader so the Shapers would be able advance and take Gazaki-Uss.

 

Now the war goes the Shapers way. But neither side actually has the power to beat the other. Their are few Shapers and fewer Drakons. Boom, extended war causes everyone to die. The only choice to to allow Astoria to end the war. Terrestia in the West and Sucia in the East. The Shapers stay as arrogant as ever, and the Rebels unleash alot of horrible new creations, as they never respected the shapers need for control. The Extened war caused the people to become Trakovites, Shaping only caused a long war.

 

So If you read that, Congratualtions for putting up with my rant. I just know there will be a debate.

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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
I think the game says once or twice that servant minds don't go rogue very often, but that's false. We see servant minds go rogue quite often in the series, and it's obviously enough of a threat that they're designed to be immobile and then redesigned later in the series so that they have a much shorter lifespan.

We do see a few intelligent serviles that are completely obedient, but it seems very likely that one will go rogue sooner or later. That seems to be the end result of any creation given enough time and abuse.
I can't really see servant minds going rogue for any reason other than they go crazy or something; they don't do much physically and are reasonably well cared for compared to other creations. Serviles, on the other hand, do a lot of heavy labor, and tend to get the most abuse; they have reasons to rebel.
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Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
The Shapers on the west are far better off. G5 Constantly states that the Rebels never made it far west and the Shapers have the Rich provinces. The Shapers are far better equipt to beat the rebels.

This is true, but the Shapers are tapping those resources already in G5. Soldiers and supplies are being sent from the coastal provinces to the front lines. And the coastal provinces are definitely not prepared should the war actually reach them.

Quote:
So I will assume the stalemate contiunes for sevral more years like the game says until... Ghaldring dies of old age. He is the oldest major charcter in this game (Besides possibly Shema).

Drayks have no problem living 200 hundred years. Far less than that passes between G1 and G4 because the servile Amena Blade is alive in all of them. Ghaldring isn't even shaped until the very end of G2. Not much time passes between G4 and G5 because Alwan and Greta are alive and about the same age. Ghaldring is very young still and not likely to die of natural causes any time soon.

Dikiyoba.
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Nitpick: Its fort Rockfall, Hypnotic.

 

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I can't really see servant minds going rogue for any reason other than they go crazy or something; they don't do much physically and are reasonably well cared for compared to other creations. Serviles, on the other hand, do a lot of heavy labor, and tend to get the most abuse; they have reasons to rebel.

There is the immense mental stress they are put under to control their creations. Although, this is more to due with the variant of Servant Mind and how powerful the actual creations are. Control 4 in G1 had no trouble keeping control of the Roamers until he got to hungry to extend the area. That other crazy Servant Mind, however (Kitara I think it's name was) went nuts trying to keep control of the Alpha/Glaahks for such a long time without Shaper guidance/sustainment.

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FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

I am going to kill someone. I have just accessed G1 to load a saved game and talk to Darian. Suddenly, the "Change resolution" box pops up. That's strange, I didn't think that I got those anymore. So, I quick open up my save games menu, aaannnnddd... it's all blank. Evey single one of my nearly dozen playthroughs, in an attempt to get all the endings, have been erased. Gasping in horror, I check the main screen. Flashing in the corner, the dreaded words 'Unregistered copy" leer at me. I threw a fit. Quickly checking, G2 and G3 have become unregistered as well. Luckily, G4 and 5 are still there. Now I'll have to dig up my old laptop that I bought the game for and copy the Prefs file over to my desktop. So, I have just ruined my week, and lost my playthroughs. This sucks. I'm off to complain in tech support.

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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
The Shapers on the west are far better off. G5 Constantly states that the Rebels never made it far west and the Shapers have the Rich provinces. The Shapers are far better equipt to beat the rebels.

This is true, but the Shapers are tapping those resources already in G5. Soldiers and supplies are being sent from the coastal provinces to the front lines. And the coastal provinces are definitely not prepared should the war actually reach them.

Thats true they are sending support to Alwan and Astroia but not everything. When you do an Alawn run he reffers to wining over the Council so they provide him with full support. There are Shapers, Soldeirs, Money etc that still isn't being sent over due to the Arrgoant (Possible Ignorance as well) of Sharissa and Nawaz.

Forgot about the age thing. I knew they were long lived but forgot how long lived they were. Okay, apart from Ghaldring not dying from old age I do think the war will go more or less how I described it.

Will fix fort rockfall, thanks Arckrovan
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Realistically, I think all three of the Councilors would be doomed to seize power. Astoria's hope for reconciliation is lost due to the attack of the Shredbugs. Alwan's plan to sway the war is lost after a humiliating defeat sets back his bold plans. Taygen is merely a madman without a working Purity Agent. Out of all of them, Alwan is the one the Council would go with, by default, and I think that Rawal would support him with his political capital. However, even if Alwan becomes the Grand General of Terrestia, he's still got a lot of work. Rebel encroachment is everywhere; the Mera-Tev's security has been compromised by Shredbugs. Even if Ghaldring doesn't force the northern front back open, it would take significant resources to clean out the Shredbugs. Furthermore, with the fall of Rockfall, Alwan is going to have to fight harder to keep the Storm Plains secure and reestablish the Line. Nevermind the fact that Taygen has all but lost control of the Dera Reaches, which would open up a second line in the Storm Provinces, much closer to home. All evidence points to a bloody, but eventual Rebel victory. After which the weakened Drakons would be overthrown in a coup by Greta's coalition.

 

The unknown variable is the Trakovites.

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or you can turn it around and say that while alwan puts up his valiant fight against the rebels the drakons become even more desperate and realease something horrible, that finally sends "greta's coalition" over the edge and they become a seperate entitiy, divided the shapers mow down the rebels and claim a bloody and hard fought victory.

 

the trakovites gain no real power as after the victory the shapers have all this paranoia just waiting to be unleashed, they tighten controls and target litalia, theyre leader dead the trakovites slowly fade into myths and legends.

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The Drakons cannot open up the Northern front. Astoria says that Alwan was holding the Rebels back at the line. She made the truce, all the northen forces went south and Still he held them back. Since then Alwan has been cleaning up the Stormplains. If the Rebels go back north, the changes Alwan has made and all the rouges he has killed will enable him to push into Rebel lands. The Shredbugs also attack everything. If the Rebels went North after that, they would be fighting their own weapon aganst the Shapers.

 

The Fall of Rockfall is the only major setback Alwan faces. He seals up the secret acsess route, or block it.

 

Dera has no land connection to the east. Everything that goes in would have to come by sea, which is expensive. They would be infiltrating Dera but asibe from Kayar, Dera and Plantos workshop, there isn't alot in Dera. The southern shore isn't being useful to the economy, Taygen couldn't care less if Brenhold were killed. The thing that you would most liky to find is creation camps.

 

After the Shredbugs are released, Astoria might start fighting again. Truce isn't happening anytime soon.

 

EDIT: The problem with that tristan, is that Greta says that although the dosn't like the Drakons, she knows she must put up with them. Also, if the Drakons create something more horrible than the unbound or Shredbugs. That would just help prove the Trakovites point of veiw.

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Originally Posted By: Hypnotic

EDIT: The problem with that tristan, is that Greta says that although the dosn't like the Drakons, she knows she must put up with them. Also, if the Drakons create something more horrible than the unbound or Shredbugs. That would just help prove the Trakovites point of veiw.


not really, both greta and the drakons and the shapers all simultanously hate the trakovites, so while it may help help them in theory, it just doesint cut any wounds for the 3(counting greta) major factions, at the least it provides serious internal strife the likes the rebels have never seen.
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Greta wouldn't rebel. She didn't when the unbound were released. She hates it, but as long as the Shapers are overthrown, shes satisfied. Greta only rebels against the rebels when the Drakons send everything not a drakon, east. After the Shapers are all but defeated.

 

Everyone hates the Trakovites, but how do you kill an idea? Alwan does it in his ending but thats when every type of rebel thought is being killed so it dosn't count. in the middle of a war where horrible things are fighting, Trakovites make senc. Even if their actions don't.

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Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
Astoria says that Alwan was holding the Rebels back at the line. She made the truce, all the northen forces went south and Still he held them back. Since then Alwan has been cleaning up the Stormplains.

Alwan is very reliant on a few servant minds, and when G5 takes place they are not doing their job well. He would probably fix it before anything bad could happen in that particular situation, but every Shaper killed makes him more dependent on those servant minds to keep his creations under control. He can't keep it up forever before an accident or stress or sabotage takes some or all of the minds out of commission and then he will have a much harder time maintaining the line.

Quote:
Dera has no land connection to the east. Everything that goes in would have to come by sea, which is expensive.

It does have some connection. The serviles and wingbolts who freed the creation camps came into the Dera Reaches either by river or a mountain pass (I forget which). It's still very difficult, though, and it would take a lot of effort for the rebels to actually control and hold that province.

Dikiyoba.
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Originally Posted By: Dikiyoba
Quote:
Dera has no land connection to the east. Everything that goes in would have to come by sea, which is expensive.

It does have some connection. The serviles and wingbolts who freed the creation camps came into the Dera Reaches either by river or a mountain pass (I forget which). It's still very difficult, though, and it would take a lot of effort for the rebels to actually control and hold that province


Just a minor point of clarification. The connection I was speaking of was not to Lethia Province (although that one is important), but instead the connection to Perikalia. And, while the Rebels most likely wouldn't be able to actually control the province, Dera has strategic significance for the Shapers. If the Rebels can just sail in and create a swarm of rogues, or worse, Spawners, and make Dera completely overrun, then the Shapers will have to devote more resources to defending the Lethia Pass and Perikalia itself.

Does anyone recall the initial battle at the Perikalia Orchards, where the guards are all but overwhelmed and some rogues slip into the city? Well, picture Dera converted to another borderland area, like what lies between the Line and Gazaki-Uss. That does not bode well for Alwan's army.

Also, though I failed to realize this earlier, in every ending Alwan dies. If, in any of these scenarios, the war drags on for too long, as it seems likely to do, the hero of the Shapers ends up dead on his framework.
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Originally Posted By: Goldenking
Just a minor point of clarification. The connection I was speaking of was not to Lethia Province (although that one is important), but instead the connection to Perikalia. And, while the Rebels most likely wouldn't be able to actually control the province, Dera has strategic significance for the Shapers. If the Rebels can just sail in and create a swarm of rogues, or worse, Spawners, and make Dera completely overrun, then the Shapers will have to devote more resources to defending the Lethia Pass and Perikalia itself.


The rebels do in fact sail in, create rouges and leave. Its just, the water is so rare in Dera that the rouges die after a few weeks. I think the map just outside of the Kayar cells states this. The rebels could put more rouges in Dera but Taygen would ignor them, Lethia would hold its own, and those that managed to get to Perikalia would be half starved.

Originally Posted By: Goldenking
Does anyone recall the initial battle at the Perikalia Orchards, where the guards are all but overwhelmed and some rogues slip into the city? Well, picture Dera converted to another borderland area, like what lies between the Line and Gazaki-Uss. That does not bode well for Alwan's army.


Rouges do not fight as effectivly as creations under control. None the less, point taken.

Originally Posted By: Goldenking
Also, though I failed to realize this earlier, in every ending Alwan dies. If, in any of these scenarios, the war drags on for too long, as it seems likely to do, the hero of the Shapers ends up dead on his framework.


Alwan is extreamly devote in his beleifs of the Shapers. He would not give his life up so easily. Only when the war is over does he give his life up in each ending. The more likley cause of his death would be the trips to the Council and back, not an extended war. Alwan will fight until the day he dies.
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or you can turn it around and say that while alwan puts up his valiant fight against the rebels the drakons become even more desperate and realease something horrible, that finally sends "greta's coalition" over the edge and they become a seperate entitiy, divided the shapers mow down the rebels and claim a bloody and hard fought victory.


I think you are overestemating Alwans strategic ability. While he clearly has the skill the hold back the rebels and keep the Storm Planes secured on the south front, but unless he's backed 100% by the rest of the council, I don't believe he would have the resources to actually push the rebels any further.

Quote:
Also, though I failed to realize this earlier, in every ending Alwan dies. If, in any of these scenarios, the war drags on for too long, as it seems likely to do, the hero of the Shapers ends up dead on his framework.

That's a very good point. It's entirely possible for Ghaldring to simply outlast Alwan. He only seems to have a few years left, and unless something were to change for the better/worse, the Shapers wouldn't have a worthy replacement.

Quote:
The rebels do in fact sail in, create rouges and leave. Its just, the water is so rare in Dera that the rouges die after a few weeks. I think the map just outside of the Kayar cells states this. The rebels could put more rouges in Dera but Taygen would ignor them, Lethia would hold its own, and those that managed to get to Perikalia would be half starved.


This is contradicted by the fact that nearly all of the rogues in the Dera are in good health. They've swarm all over the province, and have yet to be properly routed out by the time the PC gets there. Plus, there's the Unbound to worry about, since they seem capable of surviving long-term without Rebel interference.
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Originally Posted By: Master Ackrovan
or you can turn it around and say that while alwan puts up his valiant fight against the rebels the drakons become even more desperate and realease something horrible, that finally sends "greta's coalition" over the edge and they become a seperate entitiy, divided the shapers mow down the rebels and claim a bloody and hard fought victory.


he has the ability to hold the rebels back when that is the only line, let us not forget that astoria has a temporary truce with the rebels in the north so ghaldring has the vast majority of forces at the southern line. given that greta rebels(which is key)the drakons are forced to fight 2 wars, with 2 lines,knowing drakon arrogance they would run over to the rebel-rebels and try to massacre them, allowing alwan to stage a massive attack on the other line, thereby at least taking the drakon capital(forgot what -uss it was this time). with this sudden victory the eastern councilors would back alwan,so would taygen,rawal,but astoria would not. and if anyone has played the alwan ending you know that it doesint end well for the rebels.
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Quote box will work if you use a "]" and not a ")" to end the [quote=Master Ackrovan).

 

Greta has very limmited support. The Drakons are fighting the war. She has a handful of lifecrafters. In the Ghaldring ending, she only takes over easily because after the Shaper Citadel has fallen, all the Drakons are fighting the Coastal provinces. The gives her al of Eastern terrestia without much of a fight. Then The Drakons are stuck between Shapers and Rebel-Rebels.

 

I think you are overestimating Gretas influence.

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If Gazaki-Uss falls. G4 Repeats itself. The Remainig Drakons hide Away in Khima-Uss or Quessa-uss. Something worse than the unbound is made and the rebels gain ground again.

 

Lets assume it does fall. Shaper council would than support Alwan. Alwan adavces but slower than he would had the Pc supported him. The Rebels (Including Greta) would be fighting the Shapers. The Shapers would have no stronghold in Illya, and their nearest stronghold would be the Line. Gazaki-Uss would be destroyed.

 

The Shapers could advance by the Northern front but first their army has to get past the Shredbugs. Then they have to take down the Okavano Barrier. Than there is the long march through the fen with no forts to stop of in and have a rest. By the time they get to Burwood they would be a tired wreck.

 

The Shaper could go by sea in either the North or South but the Shpaers no longer control the seas by the start og G5.

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If Gazaki-Uss (sp) falls, pretty much the last drakon stronghold is gone. The Shapers can hold the new line while they regain more strength and disheartened rebels abandon the cause.


There's at least 3 or 4 well equiped Drakon forts in G4, and there's nothing to say that the Drakons didn't build more in the mean time.
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Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
So for the sake of this I will assume the Concil orders him to return the other councillors possesions.
Took me a while to be able to answer to this...

With all of the disasters to the Shapers, I think you are right in that Rawal will lose influence, Astoria will be despised, and so will Taygen. But What makes you think that Rawal will give away his stuff? If it is his lat influence over the group, then he will try to hold onto it desperately. And the others want items that they probably wouldn't want the others to know were there, or the reasons why they wanted them. So why would Alwan suddenly get his way? And even if he somehow gets the support of the council, the unbound and shred bugs and many rouges are infesting much of the shapers domain, so how would this suddenly allow them to break through enemy lies? Being (sorta) more unified than usual, the rebels would probably find it a little harder to keep the shapers at the forts and to break through themselves, but most of the soldiersw and creations will stay where they are because of all the problems, and each member of the council will still want to go their own way and continue their own experiments and to try to end the war their way. In fact, because of the shred bugs, even more soldiers may be diverted to the Mera Tev, which may soon become a hostile place where no human can live without the fear of being eaten by glowing magical bugs. So if the P.C. never did anything at all, and somehow someone forced Rawal to give up his last influence, I think that nothing much may change, and that the Shapers will still probably lose.
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Astoria wants peace, which goes against nearly everything Shaper. We agree it won't happen. Taygen only votes for Agent Purity and nothing else. He can't complete it, under any circumstances without the Pcs help. Alwan has the knowledge and Militarty tactics to beat the Rebels. He olny needs support to pull it off.

 

There is that agent investigating Rawal (Forget her name) and she is disgusted by it. If the Control tools arn't bad enough he is undermining his fellow Councillors. Astoria, taygen and Alwan want something from the Repository. Rawal is obliged to give them back but he dosn't. I'm assuming that sometime during the Council meeting, Alwan will want to win over the Council by saying the "Unbound can be deseased if only rawal would give me the proof". Or mabey Taygen will say he is "only missing three parts of Agent purity and rawal has one". The Council will become aware of his actions so he would have to give them up, if only to save face. Astoria wouldn't bring it up as her vault contains consessions, but she would support Alwan and Tayegn to get their stuff back so Rawal loses his hold.

 

Alwan can beat the Unbound, they are affected by the common cold like everything else and they lose their power sometime after creation. The Shredbugs prevent the Shapers advancing on the Rebels but it would also stop the Rebels advancing on the Shapers. The Shapers only need to control the Roads in Mera, Astoria has effecivtly lost everything else anyway.

 

At the Very least, Support from the Council will give him enough resources to take fort Rockfall and properly defend it. That would bottle in the Rebels on the south. Once he has regained the Stormplains, he could focus on the Rebels a bit more.

 

Most the Evidence points to a stalemate. Neither side having the nessasry army to beat the other so a truce is made. Trakovites might never gain their veiwpoint in Shaper lands but Rebel lands arn't controlled as tightly.

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Originally Posted By: Hypnotic

Most the Evidence points to a stalemate. Neither side having the nessasry army to beat the other so a truce is made. Trakovites might never gain their veiwpoint in Shaper lands but Rebel lands arn't controlled as tightly.


in that case it would hurt the rebels and allow for an easier shaper victory as they will be heavily discouraged from creating new creation types and will therefore adapt less quickly to the new creations that the shapers will undoubtedly invent.

Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
Even if Gazaki-Uss falls, The Shapers still have to get past the Turbi gates. If Gazki-Uss falls Greta would stop fighting to allow the Drakons to regain ground. She hates the Shapers more than she hates the Drakons. The stalemate contiunes once again.


if gazaki-uss falls then it is more or less a alwan game ending, and thru that we know that he is capable of doing just that, alwan is a military genius.... you underestimate him.
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Originally Posted By: Hypnotic
Rawal is obliged to give them back but he dosn't. I'm assuming that sometime during the Council meeting, Alwan will want to win over the Council by saying the "Unbound can be deseased if only rawal would give me the proof". Or mabey Taygen will say he is "only missing three parts of Agent purity and rawal has one". The Council will become aware of his actions so he would have to give them up, if only to save face. Astoria wouldn't bring it up as her vault contains consessions, but she would support Alwan and Tayegn to get their stuff back so Rawal loses his hold.

Alwan can beat the Unbound, they are affected by the common cold like everything else and they lose their power sometime after creation. The Shredbugs prevent the Shapers advancing on the Rebels but it would also stop the Rebels advancing on the Shapers. The Shapers only need to control the Roads in Mera, Astoria has effecivtly lost everything else anyway.

At the Very least, Support from the Council will give him enough resources to take fort Rockfall and properly defend it. That would bottle in the Rebels on the south. Once he has regained the Stormplains, he could focus on the Rebels a bit more.
Why would Rawal be obliged to give the stuff back? Yes, they want it, but should he? It's not as if he is required to do it.

To save face to who? No one else really knows or cares about these things, and even though the councilors desperately want what Rawal has, it seems very unlikely that they would stand up in a meeting, and order for Rawal to give them the stuff. And even if they do, why would they side with one of them to try to get the stuff back? Even if Rawal loses some of his influence, he pretty much has the coastal councilors under his thumb, so why would they go back on him? And Rawal could say that he would give the stuff back if he for some reason lost, but he would probably arrange an "accident" for the people getting the items, so he could either get them back for more influence in the future, of destroy them to try to keep more influence than the others. And also even if he does lose, the repository is full of rouges, so he could just say that it is to dangerous to try to get anything from there, and never get around to try to clear them out.

Alwan might be able to beat the Unbound with a virus, but he would not know for certain unless he got that sample.

Also, it is mainly Shapers in the Mera Tev right now, so the Shredbugs wouold bother them more. And since Astoria's domain will fall to the Shred bugs and will end up a hostile territory, travel between councilors will be difficult, and Alwan will now have to defend from the shred bugs and other things comeing from the Mera Tev, so even if he does get more supplies and troops from somehow getting council support, he will be streched very thin everywhere and one good, solid wave of enemies might be enough to break Alwan's lines.

And also, with troops spread much thinner, he will not be able to take back fort Rockfall, and the other forts will probably fall to. And even though the rebels that you meet in the game are mostly beyond the forts, they would not be trapped since they control a lot of Terrestria and if somehow unable to get through the forts, they will probably find a safe route through the Mera Tev and attack from that way.
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Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior
Why would Rawal be obliged to give the stuff back? Yes, they want it, but should he? It's not as if he is required to do it.


The Respository is a saftey despost box. He looks after thing until the Councillors want them back. Of course he is obliged to give them back. If the whole Council knows what he is doing, than he would have to realse all of the Counils there stuff.

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior
To save face to who? No one else really knows or cares about these things, and even though the councilors desperately want what Rawal has, it seems very unlikely that they would stand up in a meeting, and order for Rawal to give them the stuff. And even if they do, why would they side with one of them to try to get the stuff back? Even if Rawal loses some of his influence, he pretty much has the coastal councilors under his thumb, so why would they go back on him?


If they Councillors need them to win the war, of course they will want them. Also the game never says he controls the Coastal councillors. All it says is that it will be easy to manipulate them when the time comes. Rawal dosn't actually control any of the Councillors, he just knows alot about all of them so they do not directly oppose him.

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior
And Rawal could say that he would give the stuff back if he for some reason lost, but he would probably arrange an "accident" for the people getting the items, so he could either get them back for more influence in the future, of destroy them to try to keep more influence than the others. And also even if he does lose, the repository is full of rouges, so he could just say that it is to dangerous to try to get anything from there, and never get around to try to clear them out.


That is a possibitlty yes. Although I don't see how incompetence increase influence. The reason why he isn't returning their things is for that reason alone. Its not like he can't clear it out. Its just a few of Patchworks that won't get replaced.

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior
Alwan might be able to beat the Unbound with a virus, but he would not know for certain unless he got that sample.


Alwan knew it was a damaged unbound sample. Thats why he hid it there for safekeeping. He just can't prove it to the others without Rawal surrendering it.

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior
Also, it is mainly Shapers in the Mera Tev right now, so the Shredbugs wouold bother them more. And since Astoria's domain will fall to the Shred bugs and will end up a hostile territory, travel between councilors will be difficult, and Alwan will now have to defend from the shred bugs and other things comeing from the Mera Tev, so even if he does get more supplies and troops from somehow getting council support, he will be streched very thin everywhere and one good, solid wave of enemies might be enough to break Alwan's lines.


The pass to Nodye is defended, the Shredbugs won't go there. The Pass to the Whitespires is somewhat defended, easily to reinforce so the Shredbugs won't go there. Astoria won't be able to kill all of them. So some will go east into rebel land and some will have to get past the gazer in Lermans. They will all remian in Mera so Alwan dosn't need to worrie about them. Concillor movement may be restriced but its only Astoria and Rawal, and they only meet once a year. If they Travel tgether, I'm sure they'll be fine.

Originally Posted By: Doom Warrior
And also, with troops spread much thinner, he will not be able to take back fort Rockfall, and the other forts will probably fall to. And even though the rebels that you meet in the game are mostly beyond the forts, they would not be trapped since they control a lot of Terrestria and if somehow unable to get through the forts, they will probably find a safe route through the Mera Tev and attack from that way.


Alwans forces wouldn't be to spread out. The other forts wouldn't fall, as they are properly defended and with Alwans bonus they are unlikly to fall. The rebels you meet are mainly serviles. Rouges don't count. The Rebels that arn't serviles got through the line before Alwan defended it. Exactly how many Rebels are in Shaper lands? Trakovites don't count, they are fighting both Shapers and Rebels.
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Originally Posted By: Shaper Tristan
in that case it would hurt the rebels and allow for an easier shaper victory as they will be heavily discouraged from creating new creation types and will therefore adapt less quickly to the new creations that the shapers will undoubtedly invent.


The Trakovites would gain a hold in Both Shaper and Rebel lands. Its only after the war will the Shapers be able to control it. Therefore both sides would have armies with low moral. Both sides have human warriors, Trakovites would effectily remove them from both sides of the war.

Originally Posted By: Shaper Tristan
if gazaki-uss falls then it is more or less a alwan game ending, and thru that we know that he is capable of doing just that, alwan is a military genius.... you underestimate him.


Alwan didn't have to deal with possible Shredbugs, Super Trakovites, and rebels getting through his line. Alwan also didn't have to deal with Taygen, Astoria or Rawal. They already were insignificant by the time his campagin started.

Sorry double post. smile Wanted to comment on all of it.
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Originally Posted By: Hypnotic

Alwan didn't have to deal with possible Shredbugs, Super Trakovites, and rebels getting through his line. Alwan also didn't have to deal with Taygen, Astoria or Rawal. They already were insignificant by the time his campagin started.


you forget that the shapers inspire worship and a fanatical sense of duty and loyalty, asking the common loyalist soldier to become a trakovite would be like asking them to assasinate their god. in their mind, its not that its wrong to do, its impossible to do.
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i think you have it backwards, the common soldier is uneducated and pulled from the countryside, while the generals and other commanders are learned and trained at citys, while the soldier has awe for the shapers the generals dont, however "barons dont emmigrate".

but your right everyone doesint think that way, however alot do, and thats called peer pressure.

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In real life mabey, however this is the geneforge universe, where to get a promotion, you need to worship the Shapers, otherwise you stay a common soldeir. Therefor the leaders must be in awe of the Shapers or pretend to be. The people you say are pulled from the country side, how does conscription make you like the Shapers better.

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war is war, and what ever there faults the shapers are great at killing, and killing effectively.they need a big army and conscription is a great way to do it, they may not call it conscription and there are really no draft dodgers, however its still conscription.

 

the people in charge(ie. generals) may not worship the shapers like there inferiors but they are undoubtedly loyal to a fault, and thats all the shapers really require.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
Originally Posted By: Hypnotic

The pass to Nodye is defended, the Shredbugs won't go there. The Pass to the Whitespires is somewhat defended, easily to reinforce so the Shredbugs won't go there. Astoria won't be able to kill all of them. So some will go east into rebel land and some will have to get past the gazer in Lermans. They will all remian in Mera so Alwan dosn't need to worrie about them. Concillor movement may be restriced but its only Astoria and Rawal, and they only meet once a year. If they Travel tgether, I'm sure they'll be fine.

if the shrederbugs are released then Astoria will fall or join the rebels, Rawal will be safe but the shapers will have no way to reach him, and agents will be easy to weed out and kill,with the help of control tools he can instal a semi-dictator ship and rule a large amount of space with small amounts of troops. Rawal will rule the shapers not Alwan.
not that that has much to do with your debate but still..

oh yes, my fraction is undecided going to obeyers.
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Actually, doesn't Rawal end up ruling the council in one or more of the endings (not counting the one where you work for him)?

 

I am of the opinion that if things got bad enough in the Mera, Astoria might decide to start getting involved. She can certainly put up a fight if she wants to (such as in the battle against Ghaldring). The shredbugs are rouges after all, they aren't directly controlled. I'm sure Astoria could probably think of some way around her treaty.

 

My Faction: Undecided/Conflicted with a 2.5,0. I guess i'm slightly pro creation rights.

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Originally Posted By: Spddin Ignis
As does everyone else you help basically wink

yes but he can do most of the tasks without a strong shaper helping him, (killing the presence) he isn't at risk of attack, (most of his quests are about gaining power not saving his fraction) and he has most of the stuff to blackmail the other fractions (he sends you on quests so he has more than enough so he is sure that he will get into power).
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